Proof that the devs are not listening to the players.

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  • Steeme
    Steeme Posts: 784 Critical Contributor
    edited August 2017
    Not to drag this conversation any further, but I've changed my mind on the subject. I created my own coalition way back in the beginning just to access the events. I had been operating under the assumption that it was just me the entire time. However, now I actually have members in my coalition that are actually joining events and putting up some scores. They seem like newer players. One player confirmed that he could only manage the first set of nodes in the Nicol Bolas event. Given the "new perspective", I think 4 hour charges help newer players. If they can only complete the first node, then they are basically limited to 1/3 of the matches, and a much lower percentage of possible score. I'm going to go all out and stand on @Phillmoore's side of this argument now. (Edit: What's up with the formatting of my post? Spacing doesn't seem to be working properly.)
  • babar3355
    babar3355 Posts: 1,128 Chairperson of the Boards
    This sounds like a challenge.   It would be really interesting to see if these nodes could be beaten with pauper decks.  I assume you would rescind your stance if I could beat these nodes with nothing but common and uncommon cards @steeme ?
  • Steeme
    Steeme Posts: 784 Critical Contributor
    babar3355 said:
    This sounds like a challenge.   It would be really interesting to see if these nodes could be beaten with pauper decks.  I assume you would rescind your stance if I could beat these nodes with nothing but common and uncommon cards @steeme ?


    I don't see how you would unlevel your planeswalkers.  I'd imagine a newer player having a couple PW's in the mid-range.

    I get that the competitive grind is too tedious.  I played to 1150 points this time now that I'm aware of my teammates and didn't really enjoy the extra matches once I realized that it wouldn't push us into another tier.  It felt wasted.

    The solution is not to reduce charges.  The solution is to segregate competitive and casual play.

  • babar3355
    babar3355 Posts: 1,128 Chairperson of the Boards
    You wont get an argument from me on that stance.  Plenty of solid suggestions how you can have plenty of content and attempts by casual/newer players and keep the competitive aspect for veterans.
  • naphomci
    naphomci Posts: 127 Tile Toppler
    Steeme said:
    Not to drag this conversation any further, but I've changed my mind on the subject. I created my own coalition way back in the beginning just to access the events. I had been operating under the assumption that it was just me the entire time. However, now I actually have members in my coalition that are actually joining events and putting up some scores. They seem like newer players. One player confirmed that he could only manage the first set of nodes in the Nicol Bolas event. Given the "new perspective", I think 4 hour charges help newer players. If they can only complete the first node, then they are basically limited to 1/3 of the matches, and a much lower percentage of possible score. I'm going to go all out and stand on @Phillmoore's side of this argument now. (Edit: What's up with the formatting of my post? Spacing doesn't seem to be working properly.)
    This is a somewhat faulty argument. You are making the assumption that by going to 8 hour charges, the number of attempts would be cut in half. However, a switch to 8 hour events means half as many ribbons earned, meaning the event lasts twice as long, which means the same the number of attempts, roughly.
  • Phillmoore
    Phillmoore Posts: 207 Tile Toppler
    It's not about the length of the game. New players tend to forget in 8 hours what is working and what doesn't so make the same mistake or similar again and then have to wait a further 8 hours for another attempt.  Demotivating 
  • Mainloop25
    Mainloop25 Posts: 1,959 Chairperson of the Boards
    Steeme said:
    The solution is not to reduce charges.  The solution is to segregate competitive and casual play.
    I feel like that was what color mastery tiers were supposed to do, but they never implemented it in a way that made any sense. 

    I don't know if this is a good idea or not, but it would be interesting to see what happened if they required coalition members to be of the same mastery tier. 
  • Bigred5442
    Bigred5442 Posts: 17 Just Dropped In
    I have been in and out of a top 10 coalition for the last year, and have to say, the grind with the 4 hour charges had a big play in me dropping down to a lower competitiveness coalition. 

    It seems that the issue is how do you make it not such a grind for the high end players and give the low end players more oppertunities to try the harder content. Maybe this has been proposes before but i had this idea the other day:

    How would it be if they put it back to 8 hours for the nodes to refresh, but nodes were only used up if you won the match. Then you could keep trying as long as you had potions available. That would get rid of the grind for the top coalitions, but let the lower level players try as much as they want.

    There would have to be some kind of bonus for finishing a node first try so we didnt end up with a bunch of perfect scores, but i think setting it up this way would make it enjoyable for players of all levels.

    Thoughts?
  • Skiglass6
    Skiglass6 Posts: 149 Tile Toppler
    Phillmoore said:
    It's not about the length of the game. New players tend to forget in 8 hours what is working and what doesn't so make the same mistake or similar again and then have to wait a further 8 hours for another attempt.  Demotivating 
    I still wish they would go back to 8hr refresh but I actually completely agree with Phillmoore about this. I wish you could update your event decks even when you do not have charges and I wish you could load your event decks when the countdown starts for each event. Instead of having to wait for the event to start. 
  • Mainloop25
    Mainloop25 Posts: 1,959 Chairperson of the Boards
    I doubt a new player will have the cards /experience to beat 3.x nodes bosses no matter how many tries they get. You would run out of potions even if you had unlimited node tries. 
  • Bigred5442
    Bigred5442 Posts: 17 Just Dropped In
    I agree, but that is the argument for 4 hour refreshes, people want more tries at the harder nodes. Letting people use potions to try the nodes accomplishes the same thing, while reducing the number of games the top players have to play to stay competitive.
  • naphomci
    naphomci Posts: 127 Tile Toppler
    Phillmoore said:
    It's not about the length of the game. New players tend to forget in 8 hours what is working and what doesn't so make the same mistake or similar again and then have to wait a further 8 hours for another attempt.  Demotivating 
    This may be the weakest argument you have made. What if they "forget" in 4 hours? Why should the game be built on a premise that players "forget"? There are also several ways to address this without a 4 hour recharge, that arguably does not address it. As stated above, you could allow editing decks with no charges, or you could add a confirm button, or make it more prominent. Hell, they could just put a warning "you did not meet X obj. last time, would you like to edit your deck?"
  • naphomci
    naphomci Posts: 127 Tile Toppler
    Bigred5442 said:
    I agree, but that is the argument for 4 hour refreshes, people want more tries at the harder nodes. Letting people use potions to try the nodes accomplishes the same thing, while reducing the number of games the top players have to play to stay competitive.
    My god, it's like no one wants to acknowledge that 4 hour charges does not actually grant more attempts. 
    If it switched to 8 hour recharge, the event would last twice as long as current, meaning you would get the same number of charges!
    It really is not that complicated.

  • andrewvanmarle
    andrewvanmarle Posts: 978 Critical Contributor
    edited August 2017
    Phillmoore said:
    It's not about the length of the galme. New players tend to forget in 8 hours what is working and what doesn't so make the same mistake or similar again and then have to wait a further 8 hours for another attempt.  Demotivating

     Are you really saying that new players  are too dumb to remember how to play a game after 8 hours? Tsk..... 

    As said before,  4 hour charges dont equal more attempts. 

    New players may even be daunted by the claim on their time tbe game makes..... 

  • majincob
    majincob Posts: 732 Critical Contributor
    Bigred5442 said:
    I have been in and out of a top 10 coalition for the last year, and have to say, the grind with the 4 hour charges had a big play in me dropping down to a lower competitiveness coalition. 

    It seems that the issue is how do you make it not such a grind for the high end players and give the low end players more oppertunities to try the harder content. Maybe this has been proposes before but i had this idea the other day:

    How would it be if they put it back to 8 hours for the nodes to refresh, but nodes were only used up if you won the match. Then you could keep trying as long as you had potions available. That would get rid of the grind for the top coalitions, but let the lower level players try as much as they want.

    There would have to be some kind of bonus for finishing a node first try so we didnt end up with a bunch of perfect scores, but i think setting it up this way would make it enjoyable for players of all levels.

    Thoughts?
    I like this idea, you could just give -x ribbons to the winning ribbon prize for each loss, up to a certain amount.
  • Steeme
    Steeme Posts: 784 Critical Contributor
    naphomci said:
    Bigred5442 said:
    I agree, but that is the argument for 4 hour refreshes, people want more tries at the harder nodes. Letting people use potions to try the nodes accomplishes the same thing, while reducing the number of games the top players have to play to stay competitive.
    My god, it's like no one wants to acknowledge that 4 hour charges does not actually grant more attempts. 
    If it switched to 8 hour recharge, the event would last twice as long as current, meaning you would get the same number of charges!
    It really is not that complicated.

    Let's take a look at a player who can only clear the first node:

    1. Under 4 hour charges, they get to play 1 match every 4 hours

    2. Under 8 hour charges, they get to play 1 match every 8 hours


    Tell me what you would prefer in this game: playing 1 match every 4 hours, or 1 match every 8 hours?


    Now, let's take a look at a player that can clear node 1, but makes attempts at node 2:

    1. Under 4 hour charges, they get to play 2 matches every 4 hours

    2. Under 8 hour charges, they get to play 2 matches every 8 hours


    Tell me what you would prefer in this game: playing 2 matches every 4 hours, or 2 matches every 8 hours?


    Less frequent charges may give you the same amount of charges, but they are spread out too thin.  You're also not taking into account the fact that dragging the event out for another couple days means it creeps into the work week.  So, your argumentation is based on the incorrect assumption that all players will be able to log in and play all their charges at any day of the week at any hour of the day.

  • Ohboy
    Ohboy Posts: 1,766 Chairperson of the Boards
    Steeme said:
    naphomci said:
    Bigred5442 said:
    I agree, but that is the argument for 4 hour refreshes, people want more tries at the harder nodes. Letting people use potions to try the nodes accomplishes the same thing, while reducing the number of games the top players have to play to stay competitive.
    My god, it's like no one wants to acknowledge that 4 hour charges does not actually grant more attempts. 
    If it switched to 8 hour recharge, the event would last twice as long as current, meaning you would get the same number of charges!
    It really is not that complicated.

    Let's take a look at a player who can only clear the first node:

    1. Under 4 hour charges, they get to play 1 match every 4 hours

    2. Under 8 hour charges, they get to play 1 match every 8 hours


    Tell me what you would prefer in this game: playing 1 match every 4 hours, or 1 match every 8 hours?


    Now, let's take a look at a player that can clear node 1, but makes attempts at node 2:

    1. Under 4 hour charges, they get to play 2 matches every 4 hours

    2. Under 8 hour charges, they get to play 2 matches every 8 hours


    Tell me what you would prefer in this game: playing 2 matches every 4 hours, or 2 matches every 8 hours?


    Less frequent charges may give you the same amount of charges, but they are spread out too thin.  You're also not taking into account the fact that dragging the event out for another couple days means it creeps into the work week.  So, your argumentation is based on the incorrect assumption that all players will be able to log in and play all their charges at any day of the week at any hour of the day.


    This is absolutely correct. It seems people have amnesia the moment they manage to complete all pve events with ease. 

    Even for the veterans... Do you not remember how many times you attempted ogw pve nodes? How pissed off would you have been if you couldn't move on to the next boss until you beat this one, and you got one attempt every 8 hours. 

    And the math isn't as simple as naphomci makes it out to be. The formula is pretty simple. They want you to invest x amount of time in the game. You wanted them to reduce the number of days the event takes to complete. They have to up the frequency to compensate to maintain x. 

    Furthermore, the event was also changed a while ago to have a definite end time(user campaigned). Less frequent recharges mean a higher probability that we get cut off. While established players feel the event grindy, newer and weaker players require those charges to attempt to hit progression. 

    Take a break from your coalition and try building one of casual players. See how hard they have to try to hit progression. Walk a mile in their shoes.  It was much harder with 8h. My coalition had like a 20% rate of hitting max progression. Now I'm seeing a lot more people hitting it. 
  • Phillmoore
    Phillmoore Posts: 207 Tile Toppler
    Finally.  This from ohboy  and Steeme are pretty much what I have been arguing for. When you are new to game agreed you may not be able to beat the boss. But you certainly don't want to wait 8 hours to get another go. Sorry to those that can walk this. I can also walk the event.  But I have a team of 20 of which more than half can't. It's the high coalitions that see this as work.  They have lost the fun element.  Maybe they should start a team of new players and see the difference.  
  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 0 Just Dropped In
    Just out of curiosity, wouldn't halving everything (progression reward tiers/levels/requirements, boss health, etc) and then doubling the refresh timers to 8 hrs effectively make everything the same for everybody but increase quality of life, real life on the weekends. I feel like this would address the newer players and the more veteran players. Thoughts?

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