Answers To The 8 Questions About Vaulting (5/2/17)

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Comments

  • Fightmastermpq
    Fightmastermpq Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    sh81 said:
    Ive mentioned in another thread, but figure it should go here also.

    The simplest solution seems to me to be to have the classics store also limited.

    The latest store has the most recent 12.

    The classics should have a rotating selection of 12-16.

    That way, when a character I want comes around in the classics (as it would pretty regularly) I can use my hoard/cp/tokens to really go for it.

    This is exactly the solution applied to latest legends, why not classics too?

    It simple.  It changes little fundamentally.  And it addresses the problem at hand.  

    No more dilution, only a little patience required.
    What do you do if you have 8 of the 12 champed?  Do you pull, or do you wait until you have 9/12? 12/12?  You are still forced to champ all the 4*s, and you have no idea which ones to champ first because the next group of 12 will be completely random.

    Ducky really said it best - you don't fix dilution by repackaging it into a smaller form in more subsets of tokens.
  • NMANOZ
    NMANOZ Posts: 108 Tile Toppler
    Bonus Legendary Vault (20 CP):

    Covers for the 4 star bonus heroes you have chosen ONLY.


  • Nick441234
    Nick441234 Posts: 1,496 Chairperson of the Boards
    killerkoala said:
    nick_chicane said:
    I just cant understand how this is so difficult. Make Vintage Heroes available all the time and add tokens to progression in all PVE and PVP. Job done. 

    I've fixed the problem in two sentences. 
    no on wants another ave to get 2*'s
    True, but even as is, its still a hell of a lot better than having no way at all to get the vaulted characters. 
  • Fightmastermpq
    Fightmastermpq Posts: 995 Critical Contributor
    Rotating ALL characters through the packs reintroduces dilution in smaller subsets though.  Except now instead of spreading them out across several tokens you are spreading them out over time.  So to get to a place where you can pull without waste will require hoarding until you get just the right RNG combo of covers in the pool, or simply champing every single 4*.  You didn't solve the problem.  With the current vaulting system you know for a fact that all you need to do to pull without waste is champ the 12 newest characters.

    If you want a shot at every character you will inherently have dilution.

    With regards to your final point, I agree, and it sounds like the devs recognize this problem as well.  The earn rate for older covers is too low to be impactful, which is why a lot of vets are upset with vaulting - those sweeter champ rewards are now coming in at a snails pace.
  • StarScream
    StarScream Posts: 147 Tile Toppler
    Thanks for the laugh from #8. It was great.
  • killerkoala
    killerkoala Posts: 1,185 Chairperson of the Boards
    nick_chicane said:
    killerkoala said:
    nick_chicane said:
    I just cant understand how this is so difficult. Make Vintage Heroes available all the time and add tokens to progression in all PVE and PVP. Job done. 

    I've fixed the problem in two sentences. 
    no on wants another ave to get 2*'s
    True, but even as is, its still a hell of a lot better than having no way at all to get the vaulted characters. 
    lol pulling 2*'s is not any better, they need to make a real way to get 4*'s
  • Ryudoz
    Ryudoz Posts: 102 Tile Toppler
    The problem with vaulting 4* comes from the fact that this game still relies on using older 3* and 4* for content. Required nodes and the CotT DDQ node are where. Current required PVE 4*? Nova. He's vaulted, with no other way to get him outside of Strang3 champion levels. Current CotT Required? Thing, and even older vaulted character, that at least has a 2* champion path (via HT). The problem is though, vaulting has cut championing off at the knees. Given no reliable way to cover (and add levels to) older characters, a large portion of champion rewards got locked behind another steel door with RNG written on it.

    It doesn't make sense to create content for characters that are vaulted. Sure for PVE you can earn 2-3 4* covers over a single PVE event (depending on length) IF you have all 3 required characters, but by making any of those characters vaulted you send the message that yes, we have to collect them all if we want all the rewards (predominantly iso, which is badly needed). 

    That's not even getting to the Crash DDQ node, where not only do you need a Vaulted 4* in many occasions, but a well covered (my Thing is 1/3/1 and has NO shot at winning, even if I snagged the useless yellow cover in the taco vault because why offer a cover other than his passive that relies on teammate damage intake to be useful in a 1 on 1 fight?!), appropriate leveled and vaulted character. So now for a majority of F2P vets like myself (1100 plus days and counting) are still struggling with these because of cover drip and the large iso investment in a single 4*.

    My suggestion is one that I've been touting for months now: a daily 4* DDQ node. Only vaulted 4*. Tie it to the Behemoth Burrito much the same way the 3* node is. It's time. It's beyond time. The Crash node will still have a higher value than this as the LT rewarded there has a chance for a 5* AND now a BH. 
  • Crowl
    Crowl Posts: 1,581 Chairperson of the Boards
    Brigby said:

    #3 - What is in place for those who want to level evenly?

    We think players who want to level more evenly will still have a vastly improved experience. You’ll find that token pulls reward more covers to the latest characters, so instead of leveling forty characters that have 1-5 covers, you'll be leveling twelve characters plus Bonus Heroes that have 10+ covers.

    We understand that players have different play styles, and we want to support as many as we can. More fundamentally, we want players to always feel a sense of progress, especially week to week. By focusing on a narrower band of characters, players can still choose to level a lot of characters evenly, but will see more noticeable gains across those characters.



    Thanks for posting these comments from the devs, but that answer to #3 is truly horrific in how badly it tries to dodge round the point (has he considered a career in politics? :D ) that some people simply don't want to just focus on a narrow group of characters, when your roster is sufficiently developed you reach the point where practically every cover could be used and so they will not be getting a vastly improved experience.

    Giving people the opportunity to level new characters faster is a great option to have added to the game, however there is simply no reason why this had to be done at the expense of almost all progress on existing champions.

    If you are so sure that vaulting is what people want then keep the current truncated LTs and bring out unabridged versions alongside them, those who want to focus on the latest 12 can do so and those who want a broader approach to levelling their characters could also do so without harming each other.
  • kyo28
    kyo28 Posts: 161 Tile Toppler
    Brigby said:

    #6 - With older characters being more of a rarity, how are newcomers supposed to compete for these characters without having these essential characters in the first place?

    New players haven't been able to compete because they've been making extremely slow progress on their rosters. We see players with lots of Champion'd 3-stars, but no usable 4-stars. They have plenty of 4-star covers, but no 4-star is above 5 covers, and so they are completely locked out of the 4-star transition. With this change, those players should have a much shorter on-ramp to the 4-star game and therefore to competing for rewards at that level.


    First of all, many thanks for finally talking directly to the community. I think it's very important for all of us players to hear from the devs directly from time to time.

    Just a note about question #6. I feel this is a false argument. Granted, newer players can champ 4*s much faster with the current comic packs, but which 4*s? Since scaling and matchmaking in PVP supposedly tries to pit players of a similar level against each other, I'd much rather have a slower progression but being able to build a diverse roster, rather than have a shorter on-ramp to champed 4*s but being limited to some 4*s that don't fit my roster or are just plain bad.

    This is why a lot of players have pleaded to have more than 2 CP comic packs, so that each player, new and old, can spend their CP chasing the covers they want.

  • Crowl
    Crowl Posts: 1,581 Chairperson of the Boards
    Pylgrim said:
    sinnerjfl said:
    Pylgrim said:
    If you make IW your 4* BH, you can expect to get her fully covered in less than 40 pulls. If there was no vaulting/BHs, it would be somewhere in the vicinity of 90 pulls.
    Or you could pull zero bonus heroes as well because the % is so low.
    5% is one in 20. Without vaulting, there would be 46 4*s in the pool, so the chances to get that particular character would be 1 in 46. Which one is lower?
    Worrying about a specific character was always the wrong way to deal with developing your roster since the advent of championing, just keep building them all up, champ the best available (or one with a lot of spare covers) character when you have enough iso and move onto the next, each time you did that you are gradually increasing the chances of your covers being usable, unlike now where it is cyclical with you being stuck with lopsided characters and potentially wasted covers more often.

  • Crowl
    Crowl Posts: 1,581 Chairperson of the Boards
    jredd said:
    "We absolutely realize that it feels terrible to pull a 4-star or better cover that you have to throw away. We definitely want to improve this experience."


    colourless  covers!  colour-less covers. covers we can apply to any ability. colourless, colourless, the colourless cover kneels before god... 

    maybe try colourless covers? how many people have asked for it/complained about it? 

    you've streamlined acquiring covers for new characters. now, continuing to give us (the same, unchangeable) random colour locked covers leaves covers withering on the vine. i pulled 30 lt's the other day and got 5 blue coulsons, for my 2/4/5 coulson. my buddy has 6 red blades in his cue. now i need to get 300K+ iso and 2 more non blue covers in 2 weeks to use them.

    colourless covers!

    and throw in a double iso event in there every now and then. ya stingy stingies!
    If they still wanted rng to play some part in the process then the simple option would be for a cover to only become colourless once you already had 5 covers in that particular colour, there is such a narrow window in the game where the colour of a character's cover matters (between 6 and 13 out of 113) that it just seems so silly for there not to be a solution to the situation.
  • veny
    veny Posts: 834 Critical Contributor
    So, instead of slowly getting all 4*s, we are getting 12 newest very quickly and, when they leave vault, we get almost none... no championing, no promoting, no use for non maxed 4*s.
    Since vaulting i sold over 30 (!!) duplicates of 4*s (and no, mostly it was not 5/5/2 builds, but f.e. 5/1/0 like my Gwenpoole).
    Its nice you summed up some wannabe reasons why you decided to add vaulting, but unless you REALLY GIVE US THE CHOICE between old and new 4*s, there reasons are irelevant.
    And please, dont insult all of us with statements like "cover dillution is bad for you and vaulting should help you and its good for you and we care about you etc. etc." - no, YOU came with this option. Yes, dillution is bad, but this is not the solution.
    You know what? Give us more 4*s from CL 9 and 10, more 2*s and 3*s we can promote (to get 4*s in the end), remove vaulting completely or give us tokens with good ol´ 4*s and dilution is gone.
    Or at least make a poll about how players feel...
    Trust me, after 2500 hours i dont realy care for why did you close me the way to promoting my 13 old champed 4*s and championing other old ones.

    You know how you recognize bad attitude? To much "we" in the post :)

    Thats my honest (emotions and feeling included) opinion.
  • Crowl
    Crowl Posts: 1,581 Chairperson of the Boards
    Wonko33 said:
    How about adding the characters we favor to the pool? If someone doesn't like vaulting he can just favor all the characters. 
    This would be a good option, but to ensure the latest characters were still built at a faster rate than before they could make it so that bonus heroes were no longer the ones we selected since those would be added into the pool anyway and were instead covers for the latest 12.
  • Jaedenkaal
    Jaedenkaal Posts: 3,357 Chairperson of the Boards
    sinnerjfl said:
    Pylgrim said:
    sinnerjfl said:
    Pylgrim said:
    If you make IW your 4* BH, you can expect to get her fully covered in less than 40 pulls. If there was no vaulting/BHs, it would be somewhere in the vicinity of 90 pulls.
    Or you could pull zero bonus heroes as well because the % is so low.
    5% is one in 20. Without vaulting, there would be 46 4*s in the pool, so the chances to get that particular character would be 1 in 46. Which one is lower?
    Thats not the point. The point is before you had at least a possibility of getting that character even if the odds were lower.

    Now with Bonus heroes it's more than likely there is no possibility of getting that character because Bonus Heroes doesn trigger much if at all for 4*'s.
    ... I don't think you understand probability at all. It's entirely the point. 1/20 odds is simply better than 1/46(and falling) odds. Bonus heroes triggers 1/20th of the time for 4*s.

    Crowl said:

    Worrying about a specific character was always the wrong way to deal with developing your roster since the advent of championing, just keep building them all up, champ the best available (or one with a lot of spare covers) character when you have enough iso and move onto the next, each time you did that you are gradually increasing the chances of your covers being usable, unlike now where it is cyclical with you being stuck with lopsided characters and potentially wasted covers more often.

    Yes, that's how it worked starting with championing and ending with vaulting. Before that, the strategy was different, and now it will have to be different again.
  • Starfury
    Starfury Posts: 719 Critical Contributor
    Jaedenkaal said:

    Yes, that's how it worked starting with championing and ending with vaulting. Before that, the strategy was different, and now it will have to be different again.
    Demiurge studios, hard at work preparing for the next time they throw sand in everyone's works :D



  • Wonko33
    Wonko33 Posts: 985 Critical Contributor
    Crowl said:
    Wonko33 said:
    How about adding the characters we favor to the pool? If someone doesn't like vaulting he can just favor all the characters. 
    This would be a good option, but to ensure the latest characters were still built at a faster rate than before they could make it so that bonus heroes were no longer the ones we selected since those would be added into the pool anyway and were instead covers for the latest 12.
    I don't think that's necessary at all. Just let people decide who they want to focus on by letting them add whomever that want to the pool of the latest 12.

    I am not sure if they want to do that for the 5* but I don't think it would create any imbalance for 3*/ 4* roster player could do that.

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