Dear D3: 8 questions that will help us understand vaulting

Fightmastermpq

GurlBYE wrote:

Fightmastermpq wrote:

GurlBYE wrote:

Anecdotal yes, but it sucks really hard now.

The double gating of RNG made the "oh well at least I can use this cover" of random legendaries feel now a lot more like "Oh no bonus? well guess I won't be getting covers for red hulk right now" (or iceman, jean, champ levels for cyc, or prof x's last purple, or more covers for punisher max, or my first carnage black, or other colors for my 5 red hulk buster, or more covers for war machine or winter soldier who began to pop for me pretty decently pre-vaulting, or nova)

And on the flip side you won't pull a cover and be thinking "oh great, another new 4* that will sit on my roster undercovered for the next year before I even think about using them," because you'll be pulling covers for them all the time and be able to use them MUCH sooner than every character you mentioned.

Yes and no.

Because I've been transitioning for a year already, i've already perpetually been in that state for a year+. I was random covers from fully covered 4's. some of my characters were 4/4/4, 5/3/2. 5/0/5, 3/2/3 etc. Those legends were adding up.

Now I have 20+ 4's that will sit on my roster dead in the water until bonus heroes works in my favor. At no point will wasp be the red hulk. Even post buff.

Because I've been skipping out not placing well enough for most new 4's over 6 of them are entirely new characters I don't have. And because I didn't roster everyone from the start personally 4 star wise, it's just a new era of getting characters that will fall out of the tokens before I can cover them, a la moon knight & Kate in a week.

You are too emotionally invested in Red Hulk and other older characters that you've spent the past year convincing yourself that you need to increase your level of enjoyment in the game. Sure Wasp is no Rulk, but Rulk is no Carol, and who knows what other 4*s may come (the trend is that power creep seems to favor newer characters in the long term). The fact of the matter is that you don't need Rulk to be competitive, there is no one specific 4* that you HAVE to have to be competitive but you can't now because they are locked away in this vault. More important than getting specific 4*s to a usable level (which has admittedly taken you over a year and you still aren't there) is just getting ANY small group of 4*s to a usable level so long as they aren't total garbage tier. And these 12 newest 4*s have several strong candidates that with the increased draw rates you should be able to get max covered in a MUCH shorter time period (more than 3x sooner in fact).

If you have your heart set on Rulk then set him as your bonus and you'll get him sooner. Not sure who your 4/4/4 is, but make that your bonus and it's done in ~20 pulls.....something that would have taken ~43 pulls previously.

GurlBYE

Fightmastermpq wrote:

GurlBYE wrote:

Fightmastermpq wrote:

GurlBYE wrote:

Anecdotal yes, but it sucks really hard now.

The double gating of RNG made the "oh well at least I can use this cover" of random legendaries feel now a lot more like "Oh no bonus? well guess I won't be getting covers for red hulk right now" (or iceman, jean, champ levels for cyc, or prof x's last purple, or more covers for punisher max, or my first carnage black, or other colors for my 5 red hulk buster, or more covers for war machine or winter soldier who began to pop for me pretty decently pre-vaulting, or nova)

And on the flip side you won't pull a cover and be thinking "oh great, another new 4* that will sit on my roster undercovered for the next year before I even think about using them," because you'll be pulling covers for them all the time and be able to use them MUCH sooner than every character you mentioned.

Yes and no.

Because I've been transitioning for a year already, i've already perpetually been in that state for a year+. I was random covers from fully covered 4's. some of my characters were 4/4/4, 5/3/2. 5/0/5, 3/2/3 etc. Those legends were adding up.

Now I have 20+ 4's that will sit on my roster dead in the water until bonus heroes works in my favor. At no point will wasp be the red hulk. Even post buff.

Because I've been skipping out not placing well enough for most new 4's over 6 of them are entirely new characters I don't have. And because I didn't roster everyone from the start personally 4 star wise, it's just a new era of getting characters that will fall out of the tokens before I can cover them, a la moon knight & Kate in a week.

You are too emotionally invested in Red Hulk and other older characters that you've spent the past year convincing yourself that you need to increase your level of enjoyment in the game. Sure Wasp is no Rulk, but Rulk is no Carol, and who knows what other 4*s may come (the trend is that power creep seems to favor newer characters in the long term). The fact of the matter is that you don't need Rulk to be competitive, there is no one specific 4* that you HAVE to have to be competitive but you can't now because they are locked away in this vault. More important than getting specific 4*s to a usable level (which has admittedly taken you over a year and you still aren't there) is just getting ANY small group of 4*s to a usable level so long as they aren't total garbage tier. And these 12 newest 4*s have several strong candidates that with the increased draw rates you should be able to get max covered in a MUCH shorter time period (more than 3x sooner in fact).

If you have your heart set on Rulk then set him as your bonus and you'll get him sooner. Not sure who your 4/4/4 is, but make that your bonus and it's done in ~20 pulls.....something that would have taken ~43 pulls previously.

And so in all this you can't see that I gave an anecdote, stated that i gave an anecdote, and that we are discussing how vaulting is a set back. for the rest of the small group of 4's, that are already closest?
And for the guys with 5 in a color?
A set back?
The fact that even if it's "faster", I'm still restarting, with characters I've got less than 3 covers in a piece and no iso in.
Carol can be as great as she wants but she's got 2 covers right now.

I don't even understand what we're going back an forth about at this point. You are approaching me with point C when I'm discussing points A and B. I've NEVER said it'd be slower for me to cover the new guys. Just that I essentially just got the reset button pressed on my progress after obtaining 1 singular 4 champ. I'd get it if you were disagreeing or especially opposed to something I typed, but this just seems weird.

My point is we can't all pretend 4's are suddenly raining from the sky or that the reduction increased the odds of 4's. No it increased the odds of these 4's. And they are nowhere near useable when compared to the characters I've got 9-12 covers vested in. And this is all personal here. And that's why i chose anecdotal; evidence

Pylgrim

I believe I can answer many of these questions by using common sense and a good understanding of the game.

Daredevil217 wrote:

Question 1: Why the change?

Not sure if you read the forums much before but one of the most insistent, gratingly repeated complaints for the last 1-2 years has been variations of "ooooh a new character? Thaanks D3! I look forward to playing with it in 3 years while it sits uselessly eating a roster slot! /s". Seriously, reading any thread revealing a new character was like walking into a deafening echo chamber. This change addresses that directly. Now you can max-cover new characters within 6 months or less.

Question 2: Should new players be focusing on a smaller pool of heroes now?

I think the important part of your question is "focusing" and the answer is "yes". Meaning that you are still expected and encouraged to roster all, but now, as a new player (or new transitioner to a higher rank) it will be easier for you to get certain heroes to "playable" levels more quickly.

Question 3: What is in place for those who want to level evenly?

As it stands now, not much. This is a valid complaint, though I believe the devs have chosen to prioritise what I call the "main quest" (progressing through tiers) over "side quests" (such as getting every character and raising them evenly).

Question 4: If vaulting didn’t work in the past, why bring it back?

This is very different to the old vaulting. First, bonus heroes alleviate somewhat the lack of availability of certain characters. Second, one of the biggest reasons why old vaulting sucked so much was because you kept drawing covers of the same characters and having to waste them, selling them. Championing now prevents such waste.

Question 5: Is this change designed to encourage hoarding?

As a 4* player, I can tell you that this change has finally broken me from a long, long strand of hoarding (I had almost 3k cp) as opening and buying legendary tokens kept being put off because I had to keep investing my iso into older 13-cover characters whose covers I kept randomly opening and I refused to let them go to waste, even if they were for mediocre characters. I greatly appreciate the increased amount of control I have on my pulls now and I've been opening many lts as of late.

Question 6: With older characters being more of a rarity, how are newcomers supposed to compete for these characters without having these essential characters in the first place?

Also a valid question that needs to be addressed by the devs.

Question 7: Is this change meant to slow (or in some cases eliminate) champing?

It is not "meant" to slow it (and it will very much not eliminate it). It is just an unfortunate side effect of all the other things that this feature sets off to accomplish. My hope is that rather than trying to tweak or over-complicate this feature to fix this issue, they introduce a new feature that addresses it squarely.

Question 8: If enough people voice concern, would you be willing to end vaulting?

As I said above I don't think this feature should be reversed. It is addressing two important issues (cover dilution and speed of progression). What we need is specific fixes for the few downsides of the feature.

kyo28

Pylgrim wrote:

Question 2: Should new players be focusing on a smaller pool of heroes now?

I think the important part of your question is "focusing" and the answer is "yes". Meaning that you are still expected and encouraged to roster all, but now, as a new player (or new transitioner to a higher rank) it will be easier for you to get certain heroes to "playable" levels more quickly.

Yes and no. It really varies from situation to situation. For me it forces me to abandon the 4*s I was close to championing and forces me to focus on 12 new ones. But with the speed the rotation goes, most of those 12 will be vaulted before I have a chance to champion them. Look at it this way:
* Old 4*s : between 9-13 covers but now all but dead in the water. I have yet to pull one single bonus 4* > transition to 4* status halted
* New 4*s : between 1-3 covers: I pull them faster but not fast enough to champ them. By the time they reach 11-13 covers, they are moved with the older, vaulted ones > transition to 4* status halted
* New-new 4*s : the cycle begins a new.

So I'll constantly be building 4*s to an average of 11-13 covers only to have them vaulted afterwards and this will keep hampering my transition to 4* player status.

Was it better in the old system? Perhaps not because it was all RNGesus. But now I know in advance I'll be in a never-ending treadmill, always playing catch-up with more advanced players and constantly hitting that same brick wall that vaulting created.

The problem is more complex than just focussing on a select group of 4*s. It's the speed at which new 4*s are released, it's the pull rate of 4*s, it's the possibilites (or lack thereof) for us to get 4*s, it's dilution, it's all of that. So the fix needs to address these issues so transitioning players get a shot at moving up and not just catering to high level whale type players.

If they had multiple 4* packs to pull from, then I could keep focussing on the pack of 4*s that I want until they are champed and then move on to another pack (or keep pulling from the same pack to get champ rewards). Now, I'm just stuck in a never ending cycle where I can't champion any 4* anymore and already my ISO is starting to build up whereas before I was constantly ISO starved. That in and of itself speaks volumes.

Fightmastermpq

kyo28 wrote:

* New 4*s : between 1-3 covers: I pull them faster but not fast enough to champ them. By the time they reach 11-13 covers, they are moved with the older, vaulted ones > transition to 4* status halted

What? No, how can you possibly come to this conclusion? You will level these newer 4s 3x faster than previous, and they will likely be in tokens for about 8 months each. Did it take you over 2 years to max cover the 4s on your roster now????? Not to mention the release event rewards giving you a 3+ cover head start on all of them (T100 individual/alliance in release, PvE progression, PvP progression/placement). With hard play and a couple lucky vault/release pulls I've had new characters at 10 covers by the time they first enter the LT pool - without any spending. Obviously not everyone can win T5 rewards, but if you want work for these new characters you should be able to get them covered well before they are vaulted.

whycantwesyncpc

Fightmastermpq wrote:

kyo28 wrote:

* New 4*s : between 1-3 covers: I pull them faster but not fast enough to champ them. By the time they reach 11-13 covers, they are moved with the older, vaulted ones > transition to 4* status halted

What? No, how can you possibly come to this conclusion? You will level these newer 4s 3x faster than previous, and they will likely be in tokens for about 8 months each. Did it take you over 2 years to max cover the 4s on your roster now????? Not to mention the release event rewards giving you a 3+ cover head start on all of them (T100 individual/alliance in release, PvE progression, PvP progression/placement). With hard play and a couple lucky vault/release pulls I've had new characters at 10 covers by the time they first enter the LT pool - without any spending. Obviously not everyone can win T5 rewards, but if you want work for these new characters you should be able to get them covered well before they are vaulted.

Still doesn't address how for those of us that don't treat this like a second job how are we supposed to have the resources to do all of this. There is no point in even bothering with the recent 12 if you can't roster them, fully cover them, and champ them in that period of time. It's fine for some, but for others it's a lot to ask for. If you can't guarantee you can do that all before they get vaulted it's a complete waste to even try. With all the lost champ levels due to them taking characters away it just gets that much harder. Once they get vaulted they become part of the problem if if you do manage to do it all due to it being harder to get champ levels for them due to rng inside of rng if you even bother with it. For those of us that want to roster, cover and level the old characters hopw are we ever going to have the resources to go back and do it it we are constantly getting the newest ones forced on us?

Fightmastermpq

whycantwesyncpc wrote:

Fightmastermpq wrote:

kyo28 wrote:

* New 4*s : between 1-3 covers: I pull them faster but not fast enough to champ them. By the time they reach 11-13 covers, they are moved with the older, vaulted ones > transition to 4* status halted

What? No, how can you possibly come to this conclusion? You will level these newer 4s 3x faster than previous, and they will likely be in tokens for about 8 months each. Did it take you over 2 years to max cover the 4s on your roster now????? Not to mention the release event rewards giving you a 3+ cover head start on all of them (T100 individual/alliance in release, PvE progression, PvP progression/placement). With hard play and a couple lucky vault/release pulls I've had new characters at 10 covers by the time they first enter the LT pool - without any spending. Obviously not everyone can win T5 rewards, but if you want work for these new characters you should be able to get them covered well before they are vaulted.

Still doesn't address how for those of us that don't treat this like a second job how are we supposed to have the resources to do all of this. There is no point in even bothering with the recent 12 if you can't roster them, fully cover them, and champ them in that period of time. It's fine for some, but for others it's a lot to ask for. If you can't guarantee you can do that all before they get vaulted it's a complete waste to even try. With all the lost champ levels due to them taking characters away it just gets that much harder. Once they get vaulted they become part of the problem if if you do manage to do it all due to it being harder to get champ levels for them due to rng inside of rng if you even bother with it. For those of us that want to roster, cover and level the old characters hopw are we ever going to have the resources to go back and do it it we are constantly getting the newest ones forced on us?

This is an imaginary problem. We've had this new system for less than a week and you are already claiming that it's impossible to cover characters before they get vaulted. Where is your evidence of this? Do you have 4-5 covers of any of the newest 4*s? Because if so you are likely to earn covers fast enough to max cover them before they leave.

For those of us that want to roster, cover and level the old characters hopw are we ever going to have the resources to go back and do it it we are constantly getting the newest ones forced on us?

You don't. If you are missing 1 or 2 covers you can set them as your bonus heroes and finish them off, but really you should be focused on the newer characters. If resources are an issue for you then don't champ all 12 of them - pick the good ones. This should be no different from today - if you are currently resource starved then you should already be discarding the garbage tier characters so that you can focus on the better ones. You should continue to do that.

Crnch73

Fightmastermpq wrote:

You don't. If you are missing 1 or 2 covers you can set them as your bonus heroes and finish them off, but really you should be focused on the newer characters. If resources are an issue for you then don't champ all 12 of them - pick the good ones. This should be no different from today - if you are currently resource starved then you should already be discarding the garbage tier characters so that you can focus on the better ones. You should continue to do that.

I am not trying to be argumentative here... but it sorta feels like you are. I usually laugh at it all, it amuses me. But for some reason, you just seem to disagree with everyone on this thread. Which is fine, you are allowed to do so. It just seems like you are on a mission to tell everyone "stop being upset"... maybe just let em be upset?

whycantwesyncpc

Crnch73 wrote:

Fightmastermpq wrote:

You don't. If you are missing 1 or 2 covers you can set them as your bonus heroes and finish them off, but really you should be focused on the newer characters. If resources are an issue for you then don't champ all 12 of them - pick the good ones. This should be no different from today - if you are currently resource starved then you should already be discarding the garbage tier characters so that you can focus on the better ones. You should continue to do that.

I am not trying to be argumentative here... but it sorta feels like you are. I usually laugh at it all, it amuses me. But for some reason, you just seem to disagree with everyone on this thread. Which is fine, you are allowed to do so. It just seems like you are on a mission to tell everyone "stop being upset"... maybe just let em be upset?

He's either a troll or a member of the dev team that came up with new system. Or just mentally unstable. I can't think of any other reason why he is so argumentative and just ignores so many real issues to argue with anyone and everyone that doesn't think it's perfect.

Fightmastermpq

Crnch73 wrote:

Fightmastermpq wrote:

You don't. If you are missing 1 or 2 covers you can set them as your bonus heroes and finish them off, but really you should be focused on the newer characters. If resources are an issue for you then don't champ all 12 of them - pick the good ones. This should be no different from today - if you are currently resource starved then you should already be discarding the garbage tier characters so that you can focus on the better ones. You should continue to do that.

I am not trying to be argumentative here... but it sorta feels like you are. I usually laugh at it all, it amuses me. But for some reason, you just seem to disagree with everyone on this thread. Which is fine, you are allowed to do so. It just seems like you are on a mission to tell everyone "stop being upset"... maybe just let em be upset?

Sorry, I don't care about your feelings. I'm trying to think of a nice way to put this without getting banned again......

My threshold for people who prefer emotion to logic when it comes to understanding these changes is quite low. And my goal isn't to argue per se, but to point out inconsistencies in logic with regards to how this new system will impact the playerbase. For example, not too long ago the advice that was commonly given was "champ all the things" and people gave it, and followed it, using the reasoning of "yeah, I'm going to champ everyone eventually anyway, might as well just let the covers I get guide my champ order." And that's true.......if you make enough ISO to outpace the release rate. But now all of a sudden everyone is acting like they are so ISO starved that they could never champ the 12 newest 4*s in SIX MONTHS before they enter the vault. That's a pretty huge inconsistency in logic.

Fightmastermpq

whycantwesyncpc wrote:

Crnch73 wrote:

Fightmastermpq wrote:

You don't. If you are missing 1 or 2 covers you can set them as your bonus heroes and finish them off, but really you should be focused on the newer characters. If resources are an issue for you then don't champ all 12 of them - pick the good ones. This should be no different from today - if you are currently resource starved then you should already be discarding the garbage tier characters so that you can focus on the better ones. You should continue to do that.

I am not trying to be argumentative here... but it sorta feels like you are. I usually laugh at it all, it amuses me. But for some reason, you just seem to disagree with everyone on this thread. Which is fine, you are allowed to do so. It just seems like you are on a mission to tell everyone "stop being upset"... maybe just let em be upset?

He's either a troll or a member of the dev team that came up with new system. Or just mentally unstable. I can't think of any other reason why he is so argumentative and just ignores so many real issues to argue with anyone and everyone that doesn't think it's perfect.

I'm none of those things, and I've already said the system isn't perfect.

I'm simply open-minded and am able to let go of my roster plans under the previous system and understand how my roster can be better off under the new system. I'm sorry that so few others are able to view their own rosters in the same light. I've even offered to help on several occasions, but people would rather put their heads in the sand and complain that try to figure out how they can utilize the new system effectively.

Crnch73

Fightmastermpq wrote:

Sorry, I don't care about your feelings. I'm trying to think of a nice way to put this without getting banned again......

My threshold for people who prefer emotion to logic when it comes to understanding these changes is quite low. And my goal isn't to argue per se, but to point out inconsistencies in logic with regards to how this new system will impact the playerbase. For example, not too long ago the advice that was commonly given was "champ all the things" and people gave it, and followed it, using the reasoning of "yeah, I'm going to champ everyone eventually anyway, might as well just let the covers I get guide my champ order." And that's true.......if you make enough ISO to outpace the release rate. But now all of a sudden everyone is acting like they are so ISO starved that they could never champ the 12 newest 4*s in SIX MONTHS before they enter the vault. That's a pretty huge inconsistency in logic.

I am very much the same way, in that numbers and logic rule my world. I am constantly thinking analytically rather than emotionally in my life. There can be some analytical arguments made that still point out that this new system is seriously flawed, some of which I imagine you would totally agree with. There are other emotional arguments that I understand, you don't care about. Not trying to change who you are or how you think. I just feel that if you can't let em be upset, it's only going to drag you down too, right? Telling people their opinions and feelings are wrong... rather than just disagreeing with them... that's not getting us anywhere. That's all I meant. Let people be upset, it shouldn't affect you at all.

Fightmastermpq

Crnch73 wrote:

Fightmastermpq wrote:

Sorry, I don't care about your feelings. I'm trying to think of a nice way to put this without getting banned again......

My threshold for people who prefer emotion to logic when it comes to understanding these changes is quite low. And my goal isn't to argue per se, but to point out inconsistencies in logic with regards to how this new system will impact the playerbase. For example, not too long ago the advice that was commonly given was "champ all the things" and people gave it, and followed it, using the reasoning of "yeah, I'm going to champ everyone eventually anyway, might as well just let the covers I get guide my champ order." And that's true.......if you make enough ISO to outpace the release rate. But now all of a sudden everyone is acting like they are so ISO starved that they could never champ the 12 newest 4*s in SIX MONTHS before they enter the vault. That's a pretty huge inconsistency in logic.

I am very much the same way, in that numbers and logic rule my world. I am constantly thinking analytically rather than emotionally in my life. There can be some analytical arguments made that still point out that this new system is seriously flawed, some of which I imagine you would totally agree with. There are other emotional arguments that I understand, you don't care about. Not trying to change who you are or how you think. I just feel that if you can't let em be upset, it's only going to drag you down too, right? Telling people their opinions and feelings are wrong... rather than just disagreeing with them... that's not getting us anywhere. That's all I meant. Let people be upset, it shouldn't affect you at all.

It does affect me when people threaten to quit paying to support a game I enjoy because they are thinking irrationally. Again, I don't care if you want to get emotional, but I'm going to point out the areas where I feel people aren't being rational.

Crnch73

Fightmastermpq wrote:

It does affect me when people threaten to quit paying to support a game I enjoy because they are thinking irrationally. Again, I don't care if you want to get emotional, but I'm going to point out the areas where I feel people aren't being rational.

I am just trying to keep the peace. Your opinion is valid, just like everyone else. Like I said, I myself am not emotional. Every argument for and against this new system has some validity (some more than others). But can't you at least see that you aren't helping anything by telling people they are wrong and foolish? Hell, I even agree with you! Anyone acting like the sky is falling is irrational. I strongly dislike the new system, but the game goes on. You seem to be the same way... we just change the strategy (even if begrudgingly). But if someone who is upset at the developers can make you this miserable, then you are in for a world of hurt. If you already live in misery, then I am sorry for you.

In my opinion... though I agree with you... just let em vent, ignore them and enjoy playing the game as you always have.

Fightmastermpq

But...

whycantwesyncpc

Fightmastermpq wrote:

Crnch73 wrote:

Fightmastermpq wrote:

You don't. If you are missing 1 or 2 covers you can set them as your bonus heroes and finish them off, but really you should be focused on the newer characters. If resources are an issue for you then don't champ all 12 of them - pick the good ones. This should be no different from today - if you are currently resource starved then you should already be discarding the garbage tier characters so that you can focus on the better ones. You should continue to do that.

I am not trying to be argumentative here... but it sorta feels like you are. I usually laugh at it all, it amuses me. But for some reason, you just seem to disagree with everyone on this thread. Which is fine, you are allowed to do so. It just seems like you are on a mission to tell everyone "stop being upset"... maybe just let em be upset?

Sorry, I don't care about your feelings. I'm trying to think of a nice way to put this without getting banned again......

My threshold for people who prefer emotion to logic when it comes to understanding these changes is quite low. And my goal isn't to argue per se, but to point out inconsistencies in logic with regards to how this new system will impact the playerbase. For example, not too long ago the advice that was commonly given was "champ all the things" and people gave it, and followed it, using the reasoning of "yeah, I'm going to champ everyone eventually anyway, might as well just let the covers I get guide my champ order." And that's true.......if you make enough ISO to outpace the release rate. But now all of a sudden everyone is acting like they are so ISO starved that they could never champ the 12 newest 4*s in SIX MONTHS before they enter the vault. That's a pretty huge inconsistency in logic.

lol, you say that you want to go by logic and then pretend that every number and issue that doesn't work with defending the system simply either doesn't exist or just magically resolves itself. Do you ever think they maybe people actually know how much iso they have/get? It would take, what 4 million iso to champ 12 4* characters? When I started tracking what I needed to champ my 3 starts I was almost the exact same amount away. I'm not going to go back to do the match on the exact amount it is for at 12 but what I needed to do it was within 250,000. It's now almost a year later and I still have one left to champ, (not even counting the new hawkeye) So I know it will take around a year once I get started, and again that is not even counting reduced champ rewards.

If you want to look at this logically and objectively you have to understand that not everyone plays like you do, has the same goals as you do, and the same resources available as you do. Until you do you are nothing but a troll. I'm not saying that to be mean or even give you a hard time. The new system sucks and causes problems for a lot of us. Just because you are not one of them doesn't mean we are all automatically wrong.

By the way, if they took out the vaulting and kept everything else like keeping the latest legendaries the latest 12 it would far more benefit the game as it would give you what you want, focus on the latest and an easy way to get 4*'s champed without taking away choice from the players.

OneLastGambit

Fightmastermpq wrote:

Crnch73 wrote:

Fightmastermpq wrote:

Sorry, I don't care about your feelings. I'm trying to think of a nice way to put this without getting banned again......

My threshold for people who prefer emotion to logic when it comes to understanding these changes is quite low. And my goal isn't to argue per se, but to point out inconsistencies in logic with regards to how this new system will impact the playerbase. For example, not too long ago the advice that was commonly given was "champ all the things" and people gave it, and followed it, using the reasoning of "yeah, I'm going to champ everyone eventually anyway, might as well just let the covers I get guide my champ order." And that's true.......if you make enough ISO to outpace the release rate. But now all of a sudden everyone is acting like they are so ISO starved that they could never champ the 12 newest 4*s in SIX MONTHS before they enter the vault. That's a pretty huge inconsistency in logic.

I am very much the same way, in that numbers and logic rule my world. I am constantly thinking analytically rather than emotionally in my life. There can be some analytical arguments made that still point out that this new system is seriously flawed, some of which I imagine you would totally agree with. There are other emotional arguments that I understand, you don't care about. Not trying to change who you are or how you think. I just feel that if you can't let em be upset, it's only going to drag you down too, right? Telling people their opinions and feelings are wrong... rather than just disagreeing with them... that's not getting us anywhere. That's all I meant. Let people be upset, it shouldn't affect you at all.

It does affect me when people threaten to quit paying to support a game I enjoy because they are thinking irrationally. Again, I don't care if you want to get emotional, but I'm going to point out the areas where I feel people aren't being rational.

I actually agree with pretty much all of your posts on this subject and like you and pretty grounded in logic (my day trade is as a researcher), the only logical argument against the new system and that covering someone before they move out of the pool (even 8months later) is that you will pull more tokens for that character it does not necessarily mean they will be useful tokens as they may well be a colour that you have maxed.

When all tokens were in the pool it didn't matter as much since you could carry on pulling forever and have equal chances of *eventually* pulling the one you need. Now there is a somewhat arbitrary time limit on it as you're trying to do it before they move to the forgotten pool. Now the counterpoint to this point (why the hell am I arguing against my own points?) is that with Bonus Heroes you can (in theory) target your pulls to that character that just slipped out - therefore rendering that point moot (in theory). I believe this is the point that some are either failing to grasp or ignoring completely.

OneLastGambit

whycantwesyncpc wrote:

Fightmastermpq wrote:

Crnch73 wrote:

Fightmastermpq wrote:

It would take, what 4 million iso to champ 12 4* characters?

Actually it would take 5.2m iso to level them to 270 if we include the champ tax too then its actually be 5.35m to champ all 12

whycantwesyncpc

It would take, what 4 million iso to champ 12 4* characters?

[/quote][/quote][/quote]

Actually it would take 5.2m iso to level them to 270 if we include the champ tax too then its actually be 5.35m to champ all 12[/quote]


I must have forgotten the champ tax. I never champed a 4 so I'm not even sure how much it is.

kyo28

Fightmastermpq wrote:

What? No, how can you possibly come to this conclusion? You will level these newer 4s 3x faster than previous, and they will likely be in tokens for about 8 months each.

Here's my typical progression, as a semi-casual PVE player:
* 1 cover from the first event a new 4*is introduced through personal placement: sometimes I get 1 cover, mostly 0
* 0 cover for alliance placement as we are a T250 alliance
* 1 cover from the first event the new 4* is featured: 1 cover from progression
* all the other covers come from LT pulls. For that I need CP. I get about 300 CP a month so that's 12 LT pulls a month. That's 96 pulls over 8 months = 128 covers divided amongst 12 4*s = 8 covers average per character
* I get 1 LT extra through DDQ every 10-15 days = 16 extra covers a over 8 months = 1.33 covers per character average
* I don't play PVP hard enough to earn CP or LT's
* I don't have high enough placement in PVE to get additional LT's

So I get 0(or1) + 1 + 8 + 1.33 = 10.33 or 11.33 covers average per new character. And that's counting the maximum of 8 months the characters stays in there.

So my new characters will end up with about 10-12 covers each on average, move to the vault and then I can rinse and repeat.

That's the math I'm facing right now, realistically speaking. And I can't maximize my earnings through champing as I can't champ them or get high enough levels to get the return in LT, CP, etc that would help me progress further. No emotional fuss, just hard numbers. Not everyone has the luxury to play 3 hours per day or get ultra-high placement.

Fightmastermpq wrote:

Did it take you over 2 years to max cover the 4s on your roster now?????

You're right, it didn't take me 2 years to max cover the old 4s, it'll take me longer. I'm on day 440 now and have a look at my roster of 4*s with their covers, keeping in mind I have 0 LT's left and 100 CP in the bank:

Thor
Goddess of Thunder 13/13
Ant-Man
Scott Lang 13/13
Iron Man
Hulkbuster 10/13
Moon Knight
Marc Spector 9/13
Red Hulk
Thunderbolt Ross 9/13
Elektra
Unkillable 9/13
Wolverine
X-Force 8/13
The Hulk
Totally Awesome 9/13
Deadpool
Uncanny X-Force 6/13
Ghost Rider
Johnny Blaze 5/13
Kingpin
Wilson Fisk 10/13
Nova
Sam Alexander 6/13
Luke Cage
Power Man 10/13
Professor X
Charles Xavier 10/13
Winter Soldier
Bucky Barnes 7/13
Invisible Woman
Classic 13/13
Quake
Daisy Johnson 12/13
Nick Fury
Director of S.H.I.E.L.D. 11/13
Sam Wilson
Captain America 10/13
Cyclops
Classic 9/13
Spider-Woman
Jessica Drew 8/13
Captain Marvel
Carol Davners 6/13
Howard The Duck
Howard, A Duck 7/13
Medusa
Inhuman Queen 7/13
Star-Lord
Legendary Outlaw 7/13
The Thing
Classic 7/13
Carnage
Cletus Kasady 6/13
Riri Williams
Ironheart 6/13
Venom
Eddie Brock 6/13
Devil Dinosaur
Gigantic Reptile 6/13
Peggy Carter
Captain America 5/13
Gwenpool
Gwen Poole 5/13
Spider-Gwen
Gwen Stacy 5/13
X-23
All New Wolverine 5/13
Drax
The Destroyer 5/13
Iceman
All New X-Men 5/13
Jean Grey
All New X-Men 5/13
Kate Bishop
Hawkeye 4/13
Miles Morales
Spider-Man 4/13
Mr. Fantastic
Reed Richards 4/13
Blade
Modern 4/13
Mordo
Master of the Mystic Arts 4/13
The Punisher
MAX 4/13
Wasp
Janet Van Dyne 4/13
Quake
Daisy Johnson 2/13
War Machine
James Rhodes 2/13
Venom
Agent Venom 3/13
Agent Coulson
Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. 1/13

All that progress from old 4*s is now coming to a screeching halt or at least limited to only one character, if I'm lucky to get a bonus hero. How am I supposed to transition now??? My highest covered 4*s get vaulted and I can't cover the newer ones fast enough so by the time they are primed to be champed, they get vaulted.

It's a never-ending cycling where I keep hitting the same brick wall: you get a character to almost 13 covers and then the character is out of the pool, tough titty for you player.

The old system had it's flaws but the new system is great for high level players but a disaster for transitioning semi-causals