Am I the only one who recognizes how great Bonus Heroes are?

Fightmastermpq

This new features addresses some of those most common complaints we see on the forums - most notably the evils of RNG. By reducing the pool of available characters from 40+ to 20 or 12 and allowing players to select their own bonus heroes you can guarantee progress in specific areas and have your roster be FAR less dependent on RNG. Isn't that what we have been asking for???

For new players it's great. My wife has been playing for over a year now and still doesn't have more than 6 covers for any 4* character, with half of the 3*s champed. It's very difficult for her to progress into the 4* tier because the dilution is so heavy, but now it should be much easier to cover new 4*s as they appear and have working 4* rosters that open up new levels of PvP competition MUCH earlier for newer players. That's great for the playerbase.

As a nearly 2.5 year vet myself I'm in the same boat as many of you - I've got a lot of older 4*s that will now sit static. And I don't have most of the 12 latest 4*s champed. But what I do have is an Iceman that will grow to 370 MUCH quicker than he would have previously by setting him as my lone favorite 4*. And within a couple months I'll have worked myself into a position where every 4* I pull is either a champ level, or a needed cover on a new character. I can make enough ISO to champ a 4* in 7-10 days, so it won't be long until I catch up and never pull a 4* from a token that goes to waste. That's awesome! Oh, but what about all the older 4*s that you haven't champed yet? Who cares, they are garbage. Seriously, I already champed all the good ones and now I can very comfortably let the remaining garbage tier 4*s rot. I recognize that not everyone is in my situation and would like to champ some of those top tier older 4*s that they didn't get to.....great - set them as your favorite and use any surplus ISO you have to champ them and continue to progress on your favorite characters.

Admittedly the increase to 5* progression is small, BUT it's guaranteed. Bolt is the 5* that I use more than any other, but he is the lowest level of all my champs. By selecting him as my favorite I can slowly level him up to try to catch up to my higher level 5*s. Previously it was completely up to RNG and incredibly slow due to classics dilution, but now roughly 1 of every 20 5* pulls will get me a champ level on my Bolt, and that's nice guaranteed progress.

The one big negative I see that is still yet to be quantified is the potential to miss out on a lot of higher end champ level rewards from all my other 4*s that aren't Iceman and are between level 300-330. Without this change they would slowly work through those nicer reward champ levels up to 370, but instead once a new toon leaves the "latest" 4* pool they are going to get stuck at that level for a really really long time. It's hard for me to estimate what level that will be though since their rates will be so much higher. Obviously there will still be progression/placement rewards in events to help other characters along a bit, but their progress will be slower than previously.

Still, overall this change is IMO a huge step in the right direction and it really saddens me to see the devs work on something that actually does a pretty damn good job of addressing some of our major complaints only to get **** on by the vast majority of their hardcore playerbase. If nothing else it's 5% more covers for free - a rare level of generosity from D3.....but still it's met with vitriol.

tgibbs40

Yes, you are, because this is NOT what people on the forums have asked for. This is what the developers chose to turn what people on the forums asked for into...which, once again, was NOT what people on the forums asked for.

Go back and tell all your buddies at MPQ that if you aren't going to give the forumites what they ask for then don't give them something they don't want instead...with virtually no notice...and try to play it off as "this is what you asked for".

Thanks.

whycantwesyncpc

Yes reducing rng by putting more rng inside of rng. That's more rng, not less.

This change basically makes it impossible for me the progress. A giant resource brick wall. I either have to stay at the 3* level for 6 month accumulating resources to be able to do anything or quit. Yes, really great

GurlBYE

It gates progression on classic characters behind another layer of RNG.

People like the idea of the bonus hero but don't like the idea of most of the 4 star tier and half of the 3 star tier being gated behind additional luck.

And no offense, but the ideas you expressed along with counter thoughts and actual discussion are all in the giant thread with the change.

For example, your new player wife won't have an easier time taking 3 star characters to their 186 and 236 rewards of 4 stars if those characters aren't part of the 20.

So it's nice you'll get a 5 star with another 5 star, but as people have been mentioning for over a year now, it's still a tier gated behind rng. Now there will be another layer of rng to further separate people within tiers, especially 5.

Some players have 1 5 fully covered and have been trying since OML, some have 5 fully covered through luck.
This is a response to "hey can we have less luck based progression?" the response is "Here's MORE luck"

GrimSkald

Honestly, I do think that this system was introduced to help the long-term sustainability of this game. If they introduce a character every two weeks (and there's no sign that they will stop doing this - they've skipped the two week intro only once as far as I can recall,) then newer players will have more and more trouble covering their characters. The model that existed before yesterday was fine for established players (for example, it worked for me, but I'm in the 4-5* transition,) but new players were having more and more trouble getting into the 4* tier as it existed.

All in all, it strikes me as a good attempt - they reintroduced vaulting (I recall when they vaulted 3*s by Season. It was extremely unpopular and didn't really do any good,) and gave us the bonus characters as a way to mitigate the negative effects of vaulting. The problem is... it doesn't really work. At least, I don't think it does - I've drawn 14 golds since they introduced the system (most of them from Legendary Tokens,) and I haven't drawn a single bonus character. Now, that's not unlikely at all, but it does highlight that the bonus characters are going to be an occasional nice bonus - they're not really going to have a huge impact on your roster. You're not going to cover Iron Man (Hulkbuster) from Bonus draws if only 1 in 20 4*s are an Iron Man, and that's if he's your only Bonus 4*.

I think they're going to have to go back to the drawing board on vaulting. Maybe make it optional? That would rock - turn it on when you want the newer characters, turn it off when you want to draw from the full pool. Bonus characters themselves? A nice idea, but almost certainly only have a minor impact on player progression and will not mitigate the negative effects of vaulting.

GrumpySmurf1002

In it's current form, it's pretty meh.

17% is a good number for Heroics (and whatever the comparable number is for Elites). 1 in 6 pulls of a 3/4 granting a second is good. Not great, but good.

5% on Legendaries stinks. What amounts to one extra 5* every 100 pulls, even if it's a guaranteed cover, is insanely stingy for a tier that is expanding rapidly. Ditto 4*, an extra 4 covers per 100, hyperconcentrated, is nothing for a tier with ~5000 potential covers needed.

The vaulting *could* be good, but another shoe has to drop. More placement/progression rewards, daily Crash, whatever it is, there needs to be an avenue for older characters. It's otherwise inexplicable to take ~75% of the characters out of rotation permanently.

Fightmastermpq

whycantwesyncpc wrote:

Yes reducing rng by putting more rng inside of rng. That's more rng, not less.

This change basically makes it impossible for me the progress. A giant resource brick wall. I either have to stay at the 3* level for 6 month accumulating resources to be able to do anything or quit. Yes, really great

What are you even talking about? How is it impossible for you to progress because of this change?

GurlBYE wrote:

It gates progression on classic characters behind another layer of RNG.

People like the idea of the bonus hero but don't like the idea of most of the 4 star tier and half of the 3 star tier being gated behind additional luck.

And no offense, but the ideas you expressed along with counter thoughts and actual discussion are all in the giant thread with the change.

For example, your new player wife won't have an easier time taking 3 star characters to their 186 and 236 rewards of 4 stars if those characters aren't part of the 20.

So it's nice you'll get a 5 star with another 5 star, but as people have been mentioning for over a year now, it's still a tier gated behind rng. Now there will be another layer of rng to further separate people within tiers, especially 5.

Some players have 1 5 fully covered and have been trying since OML, some have 5 fully covered through luck.
This is a response to "hey can we have less luck based progression?" the response is "Here's MORE luck"

Sure it's another RNG "gate" but at a higher rate than what was previously offered, and with a determined outcome (you get to pick the character). The R in RNG stands for Random, and if you get to pick your bonus hero it isn't random....... I thought I saw somewhere that previous odds for individual characters were about 2.5%, now that I can set my bonus hero that drop rate doubles....for that single character though which is obviously a negative, but you get to pick that character which adds a ton of value.

It doesn't further separate people at all. It allows people to pick their best 5s and progress them much faster than they otherwise would be able to - getting them into the 5* tier sooner because they are able to pick their bonus heroes. Look at how many people are waiting for 1 or 2 OML or PHX covers to really catapult them into 5* PvP, previously waiting forever for a <2% shot on a classic token. Now that 2% chance remains, but there is also a small chance that pulling some less useful 5* (even from a Latest token!) could earn them that last cover they have been waiting on forever. That's a huge help to their progress and serves to bring more players into 5* play, not separate them.

It will be far easier to get to a spot where you have no wasted pulls, which will necessarily make for faster progress. I don't have to worry about saving up enough ISO to champ Fury, or Elektra, or Mr. F so that I don't have to waste their covers because I'll literally never pull any of their covers again.

whycantwesyncpc

Fightmastermpq wrote:

whycantwesyncpc wrote:

Yes reducing rng by putting more rng inside of rng. That's more rng, not less.

This change basically makes it impossible for me the progress. A giant resource brick wall. I either have to stay at the 3* level for 6 month accumulating resources to be able to do anything or quit. Yes, really great

What are you even talking about? How is it impossible for you to progress because of this change?

I'm about to go into 4* transition and don't have the 7000 hp I need to actually roster the chosen 12 members I don't have. (not to mention any 5's I pull) Why should I pull anything just to get crunched? Wait 6-8 months to get the hp together and then I will need much more as more will have rotated out. So i'm stuck looking at probably at least a year of no progress. Why play at all then?

Jarvind

Bonus Heroes by itself would be great. Vaulting old characters so it takes years to acquire them is stupid.

Also, posting snarky **** like "As usual you are wrong" has an implied LOLOLOLOL behind it and makes you sound like kind of a jerk.

Fightmastermpq

whycantwesyncpc wrote:

Fightmastermpq wrote:

whycantwesyncpc wrote:

Yes reducing rng by putting more rng inside of rng. That's more rng, not less.

This change basically makes it impossible for me the progress. A giant resource brick wall. I either have to stay at the 3* level for 6 month accumulating resources to be able to do anything or quit. Yes, really great

What are you even talking about? How is it impossible for you to progress because of this change?

I'm about to go into 4* transition and don't have the 7000 hp I need to actually roster the chosen 12 members I don't have. (not to mention any 5's I pull) Why should I pull anything just to get crunched? Wait 6-8 months to get the hp together and then I will need much more as more will have rotated out. So i'm stuck looking at probably at least a year of no progress. Why play at all then?

Why not just sell off the older 4s that are undercovered and likely won't get covered any time soon anyway? Your problem isn't really unique to this change. You would still need roster slots for those 12 characters, plus slots for any of the other 30+ 4*s that you don't have rostered. In a way this should make it a lot easier since you ONLY need 12 slots for the newer characters and you can completely forget about the others.

hopper1979

Just playing a reasonable amount of time daily you should be able to generate 750-1000 HP a week. You may still have to horde but 6-8 months to generate that many slots you are doing something wrong. Are you Farming your 2-stars? What are you spending your HP on?

whycantwesyncpc

hopper1979 wrote:

Just playing a reasonable amount of time daily you should be able to generate 750-1000 HP a week. You may still have to horde but 6-8 months to generate that many slots you are doing something wrong. Are you Farming your 2-stars? What are you spending your HP on?

750-1000 a week?! I think you need to define reasonable. I do one clear on pve and try to get to 400 in pve if I have the time for the 50hp. I farm 2*, but don't generate hp anywhere near that fast. Maybe a month, but it can vary depending on things like champ levels (which will be less with more than half the 3's going away)

Crowl

GrimSkald wrote:

I think they're going to have to go back to the drawing board on vaulting. Maybe make it optional? That would rock - turn it on when you want the newer characters, turn it off when you want to draw from the full pool. Bonus characters themselves? A nice idea, but almost certainly only have a minor impact on player progression and will not mitigate the negative effects of vaulting.

Simpler option, that switching it on and off, offer two versions of tokens one with all 4*s and one without, it would mean you had two fixed items and less chance for them to screw it up in a subsequent release.

GurlBYE

hopper1979 wrote:

Just playing a reasonable amount of time daily you should be able to generate 750-1000 HP a week. You may still have to horde but 6-8 months to generate that many slots you are doing something wrong. Are you Farming your 2-stars? What are you spending your HP on?

1000 a week sounds a little over the top unless you mean as a top 10 player or something, which isn't possible for players of all levels.

And for 2 farms, that's not a guarantee. And the 50 Hp isn't that frequent to begin with.

But 1000 a week?
50000+ a year?

I don't think so man.
I just don't see it, or no soul in this game would ever complain about rostering new characters or buying packs with all the excess HP.

If the numbers were a 1000 a week for everyone they'd have lowered that number so fast it'd make your head spin.

bbigler

Look at the math of those 4* bonus Heroes and your logic breaks down. You're not going to get 4* BH as often as you think. If you pulled 10 Classics every 2 weeks, then 1 of them could be the BH you wanted. Just 1 every 2 weeks, assuming you're not hoarding CP. Does that sound like good progression to you? Let's say your Iceman is at level 300 (which is higher than most people) it would take 140 weeks to get him to level 370 using BH, that's 2.7 years! That's not fast.

Let's say someone, like me, has 10 older 4*s that are good but not fully covered. It would take well over a year to get their covers from BH, but then they would sit at level 270 forever. By that time I should be in 5* land, so these 4*s won't make a big difference.

What you really don't understand is that this change favors the rampant character release schedule that D3 has created. Trying to get everyone to constantly focus on the new characters and ignore the old ones, is their strategy. I would rather continue to add champ levels to the strongest characters, even if they're "old". This change ruins the champing system. Now no one will ever get their 4*s to level 370. They will all sit below level 280 or so.

Wjohnson992

Fightmastermpq wrote:

whycantwesyncpc wrote:

Fightmastermpq wrote:

whycantwesyncpc wrote:

Yes reducing rng by putting more rng inside of rng. That's more rng, not less.

This change basically makes it impossible for me the progress. A giant resource brick wall. I either have to stay at the 3* level for 6 month accumulating resources to be able to do anything or quit. Yes, really great

What are you even talking about? How is it impossible for you to progress because of this change?

I'm about to go into 4* transition and don't have the 7000 hp I need to actually roster the chosen 12 members I don't have. (not to mention any 5's I pull) Why should I pull anything just to get crunched? Wait 6-8 months to get the hp together and then I will need much more as more will have rotated out. So i'm stuck looking at probably at least a year of no progress. Why play at all then?

Sucks to suck. Why not just sell off the older 4s that are undercovered and likely won't get covered any time soon anyway? Your problem isn't really unique to this change. You would still need roster slots for those 12 characters, plus slots for any of the other 30+ 4*s that you don't have rostered. In a way this should make it a lot easier since you ONLY need 12 slots for the newer characters and you can completely forget about the others.

"Only need 12 4*'s"?

Are you familiar with PVE? Good luck doing anything progress wise if you regularly dont have the 4* essential. This is worse than the much talked about disconnect between devs and players lol.

Omega Red

With this change you'll be able to complete Hulbuster or Jean faster if you only focus on getting covers for them, but since you'll be doing this at the expense of not pulling any other old covers your overall tier progression now is going to take A LOT more time.

If you have a one cover Venom and you are short of HP you would make much better use of that roster slot by selling Venom and recruiting Coulson, because you're going to cover Coulson much faster than Venom.

Full, complete rosters have always been a luxury, but now it's harder than ever to justify them.

broll

GurlBYE wrote:

hopper1979 wrote:

Just playing a reasonable amount of time daily you should be able to generate 750-1000 HP a week. You may still have to horde but 6-8 months to generate that many slots you are doing something wrong. Are you Farming your 2-stars? What are you spending your HP on?

1000 a week sounds a little over the top unless you mean as a top 10 player or something, which isn't possible for players of all levels.

And for 2 farms, that's not a guarantee. And the 50 Hp isn't that frequent to begin with.

But 1000 a week?
50000+ a year?

I don't think so man.
I just don't see it, or no soul in this game would ever complain about rostering new characters or buying packs with all the excess HP.

If the numbers were a 1000 a week for everyone they'd have lowered that number so fast it'd make your head spin.

If you 2* farmed you'd understand...

Fightmastermpq

Wjohnson992 wrote:

"Only need 12 4*'s"?

Are you familiar with PVE? Good luck doing anything progress wise if you regularly dont have the 4* essential. This is worse than the much talked about disconnect between devs and players lol.

Well he is complaining about roster slots, so he doesn't have those 12 now. Maybe he hasn't heard of PvE???? I don't know. All I'm saying is that this change alone isn't what's preventing him from progressing, it's his own casual play and poor roster management.

bbigler

GurlBYE wrote:

hopper1979 wrote:

Just playing a reasonable amount of time daily you should be able to generate 750-1000 HP a week. You may still have to horde but 6-8 months to generate that many slots you are doing something wrong. Are you Farming your 2-stars? What are you spending your HP on?

1000 a week sounds a little over the top unless you mean as a top 10 player or something, which isn't possible for players of all levels.

And for 2 farms, that's not a guarantee. And the 50 Hp isn't that frequent to begin with.

But 1000 a week?
50000+ a year?

I don't think so man.
I just don't see it, or no soul in this game would ever complain about rostering new characters or buying packs with all the excess HP.

If the numbers were a 1000 a week for everyone they'd have lowered that number so fast it'd make your head spin.

I'm not a top10 player and i can get 1000 HP in about 4 days. I play PvE to 4 clears, play PvP to about 600 points and clear DDQ. It's not that hard, but does take a little time. Now I can spend HP on more than roster slots.

bbigler

Fightmastermpq wrote:

Wjohnson992 wrote:

"Only need 12 4*'s"?

Are you familiar with PVE? Good luck doing anything progress wise if you regularly dont have the 4* essential. This is worse than the much talked about disconnect between devs and players lol.

Well he is complaining about roster slots, so he doesn't have those 12 now. Maybe he hasn't heard of PvE???? I don't know. All I'm saying is that this change alone isn't what's preventing him from progressing, it's his own casual play and poor roster management.

In the beginning, after I completed the Prologue, I didn't realize PvE existed for about a week because I never went to that tab. BUT, that was over 3 years ago.