*** Magneto (Classic) ***

Phaserhawk

john1620b wrote:

I'm actually surprised no one has mentioned fixing his blue by just changing the protect tiles he makes from blue to yellow. I've thought for a while that that's what the devs are going to do, for a few reasons:

1. It's an easy change to implement, and the skill could still work essentially the same
2. It prevents chaining blue matches into more blue matches
3. It gives him a use as a yellow battery (of which there is only Thor, and his yellow tile creation is not super useful)
4. It gives a reason for his third color to be yellow

His purple is fine in my opinion, so they'd just need to fix his red. If the devs minimum AP requirement is 5, just make red cost cost 5 or 6 AP and do a few hundred more in damage.

All his skills could essentially be the same skills -- I'm hoping the devs don't go overboard and neuter him like they did Ragnarok or Spiderman. Those small changes would make him a good character, but still less powerful than the ones they've released lately (I'm looking at you, LazyThor and Sentry).

While I agree with what you say, it goes against the flavor of the skill. His blue was suppose to, and I say that with a smirk, suppose to be used for defense but also to set up your ultimate by allowing more blue on the board. If you are going to switch colors, it would be just as easy to leave them the same, but make blue purple, but cretes blue tiles, and make purple to blue.

Honestly the simplest switch would be to change blue to AP of 6 maybe 7, which stops the infinite chain, while you can still could spend 6 and gain 6 it wouldn't happening all that often. Then change red to 5AP and let it do more damage or net AP or both and Magneto is fixed. With that I would maybe buff his purple by reducing the number of swaps needed but still the same damage. For isntance lvl 5 purple does 636 dmg over 13 swaps for a total of 8268. This never happens. I have never gotten more than 10 swaps, ever. Is 6360 dmg enough for today's day and age. If yes, then fine, but if you want Mags to get that 8268 I say put that over 10 swaps for 826 per swap. But that's all I would do to his purple, reduce the number of swaps because 13 is never gonna happen.

Phaserhawk

john1620b wrote:

I'm actually surprised no one has mentioned fixing his blue by just changing the protect tiles he makes from blue to yellow. I've thought for a while that that's what the devs are going to do, for a few reasons:

1. It's an easy change to implement, and the skill could still work essentially the same
2. It prevents chaining blue matches into more blue matches
3. It gives him a use as a yellow battery (of which there is only Thor, and his yellow tile creation is not super useful)
4. It gives a reason for his third color to be yellow

His purple is fine in my opinion, so they'd just need to fix his red. If the devs minimum AP requirement is 5, just make red cost cost 5 or 6 AP and do a few hundred more in damage.

All his skills could essentially be the same skills -- I'm hoping the devs don't go overboard and neuter him like they did Ragnarok or Spiderman. Those small changes would make him a good character, but still less powerful than the ones they've released lately (I'm looking at you, LazyThor and Sentry).

While I agree with what you say, it goes against the flavor of the skill. His blue was suppose to, and I say that with a smirk, suppose to be used for defense but also to set up your ultimate by allowing more blue on the board. If you are going to switch colors, it would be just as easy to leave them the same, but make blue purple, but cretes blue tiles, and make purple to blue.

Honestly the simplest switch would be to change blue to AP of 6 maybe 7, which stops the infinite chain, while you can still could spend 6 and gain 6 it wouldn't happening all that often. Then change red to 5AP and let it do more damage or net AP or both and Magneto is fixed. With that I would maybe buff his purple by reducing the number of swaps needed but still the same damage. For isntance lvl 5 purple does 636 dmg over 13 swaps for a total of 8268. This never happens. I have never gotten more than 10 swaps, ever. Is 6360 dmg enough for today's day and age. If yes, then fine, but if you want Mags to get that 8268 I say put that over 10 swaps for 826 per swap. But that's all I would do to his purple, reduce the number of swaps because 13 is never gonna happen.

john1620b

Phaserhawk wrote:

While I agree with what you say, it goes against the flavor of the skill. His blue was suppose to, and I say that with a smirk, suppose to be used for defense but also to set up your ultimate by allowing more blue on the board. If you are going to switch colors, it would be just as easy to leave them the same, but make blue purple, but cretes blue tiles, and make purple to blue.

Perhaps -- although since MN Magneto can change purple into blue, I see it as being more consistent with what all versions of his character can do (i.e. convert AP from one color into tiles of another, damage/destroy tiles for potential cascades). Of course, the devs probably don't agree with either of us. I'll guess we'll find out (eventually)!

Unknown

john1620b wrote:

I'm actually surprised no one has mentioned fixing his blue by just changing the protect tiles he makes from blue to yellow.

Of course it was suggested.

john1620b

pasa_ wrote:

Of course it was suggested.

Was it? I searched this whole topic and couldn't find it mentioned anywhere. Maybe I just missed it, though.

Unknown

Changing his blue to make yellow tiles is a pretty huge nerf though. The trouble with C.Mags is it wouldn't take all that much to over nerf him. His blue being able to self sustain is overpowered because of strike synergy and making crit tiles but an increase in cost of 1, for example, means making 5 match crits no longer self sustains and instead you can only keep going off 2x3 matches (potentially a 6 crit match) which won't keep ticking over on a board often. An incrase of 2 ap cost and it can't self sustain at all but is instead giving a partial ap return. Personally I would increase cost by 1 and review it but D3 seem reluctant to edit, what is presumably a single value in a data record more than once so perhaps they would go for +2 ap. Might need to make the protect tiles a little better with the cost increase by, presumably 1/5 or 2/5 depending on change.

As far as his red goes I would just increase the cost by 3 ap, same number of tiles destroyed, triple the bonus damage.That means at 141 you're getting 5 tiles destroyed and a modest 120 damage per AP as a bonus. Also increases the cost enough to stop him being too good with strikes BUT at 5ap it's still decent with them.

His purple is ok but nothing more. 10 ap, single target, damage highly dependant on board state. No need to change.

So I guess in short i'd leave purple alone, increase blue by 1 AP, blue protects by 1/5th and triple red bonus damage but increase cost by 3 AP. I would also change his higher damage match from yellow to purple. This way he's probably no worse in the ai hands overall since it never took proper advantage of his blue or being able to spam his red anyway and the colour spread is a bit better with purple covered.

Unknown

Magnetic Field can cost 10 AP and it'd still be a very strong skill for its ability to overwrite any 2 tiles in the game.

People have some really out of touch suggestions like +1 AP. For what it's currently doing, it should probably cost 15 AP. Now if you remove the ability to overwrite any tile in the game, then we can decrease the cost considerably, but the ability to take out any 2 special tiles in the game costs a ton in this game's design. Placing yellow tiles would've worked before Thor and Sentry showed up. It'd no longer work because all you'd do is pump blue into yellow match 5s and while it's not self sustaining, 1 Thunder Strike/Sacrifice can usually come pretty close to ending a game, and 2 of them definitely will.

If Magnetic Field cannot overwrite tiles, the cheapest it can be is about 8 AP, because that'd mean you get to make a row/column match for free instead of gaining AP (row/column nets you 8 total AP).

PorkBelly

Phantron wrote:

Magnetic Field can cost 10 AP and it'd still be a very strong skill for its ability to overwrite any 2 tiles in the game.

People have some really out of touch suggestions like +1 AP. For what it's currently doing, it should probably cost 15 AP. Now if you remove the ability to overwrite any tile in the game, then we can decrease the cost considerably, but the ability to take out any 2 special tiles in the game costs a ton in this game's design. Placing yellow tiles would've worked before Thor and Sentry showed up. It'd no longer work because all you'd do is pump blue into yellow match 5s and while it's not self sustaining, 1 Thunder Strike/Sacrifice can usually come pretty close to ending a game, and 2 of them definitely will.

If Magnetic Field cannot overwrite tiles, the cheapest it can be is about 8 AP, because that'd mean you get to make a row/column match for free instead of gaining AP (row/column nets you 8 total AP).

. . . and you would've succeeded in ruining the best character in the game.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

Magnetic Field can cost 10 AP and it'd still be a very strong skill for its ability to overwrite any 2 tiles in the game.

People have some really out of touch suggestions like +1 AP. For what it's currently doing, it should probably cost 15 AP. Now if you remove the ability to overwrite any tile in the game, then we can decrease the cost considerably, but the ability to take out any 2 special tiles in the game costs a ton in this game's design. Placing yellow tiles would've worked before Thor and Sentry showed up. It'd no longer work because all you'd do is pump blue into yellow match 5s and while it's not self sustaining, 1 Thunder Strike/Sacrifice can usually come pretty close to ending a game, and 2 of them definitely will.

If Magnetic Field cannot overwrite tiles, the cheapest it can be is about 8 AP, because that'd mean you get to make a row/column match for free instead of gaining AP (row/column nets you 8 total AP).

You're argument makes no sense at all. If it cannot overwrite special tiles then it HAS to cost 8AP because you would gain AP otherwise? Really? AR3 costs 8AP and you can gain AP from it and you STEAL AP and give up what? A match worth of damage? Maybe 2 matches IF and I mean IF you got a straight 5 match and the crit cascades?

Firstly balancing a skill around the best case scenario is stupid... may as well say beserk rage is too cheap because you MIGHT get to use it before a visible, natural 4-5 cascade that JUST HAPPENS to avoid matching any of your strike tiles.

Secondly if you make his blue too weak, and by that I mean anything BUT strong, Magneto will be a pile of ****. His red will get more expensive and his purple is so-so at best. He is only currently strong because he can chain blues, something fixed by a much more modest increase than +3ap, because he can overwrite special tiles (don't expect that to survive the nerf personally although i'll say captain america can overwrite tiles for 12/13 AP THEN 2AP a pop, albeit protecting a CD tile so the suggestion of 15AP is silly) and because his red works too well with strikes purely cause of cost.

So Red will get more expensive removing one of his strengths then we nerf his blue and we have what? A middling at best single target nuke that is INCREDIBLY board state dependant, the ability to make frankly irrelevant protect tiles or swap 3 blue ap for 3 ap of another colour and some match damage if you happen to have a straight 5 match, or maybe swap 1 blue ap for 4 random AP and some match damage in the equally unlikely event of a 4 match and a 3 match being possible with 2 blues being placed and then what will probably be a meh red ability after it gets nerfed. Magneto will become all but useless.

I'm glad you're not doing the balancing is all I can say.

Spoit

Really? It should cost 15 AP?

It's better than, like, call the storm (which because of the synergy with the yellow isn't really 14 AP)

Knyghtmare

Really, if they wanted to do things right, they would make small changes, see how it went, and then make more changes as time went on to make things right. It's the massive changes that are not well-thought out or well tested that is killing characters and the game in general. For example, here is my mags nerf at max: 7ap for blue with lvls 1-3 being only 1 blue tile, 4-5ap for red, 6-7ap if you want an ap gain of the colors lost which can be what you gain at lvl 4 to max, and make purple 12ap with a 10-15% nerf. Small changes that can be improved on as the designers saw how they were used. Most importantly, the character is still viable.

Unknown

Knyghtmare wrote:

Really, if they wanted to do things right, they would make small changes, see how it went, and then make more changes as time went on to make things right. It's the massive changes that are not well-thought out or well tested that is killing characters and the game in general. For example, here is my mags nerf at max: 7ap for blue with lvls 1-3 being only 1 blue tile, 4-5ap for red, 6-7ap if you want an ap gain of the colors lost which can be what you gain at lvl 4 to max, and make purple 12ap with a 10-15% nerf. Small changes that can be improved on as the designers saw how they were used. Most importantly, the character is still viable.

I think your idea is reasonable although not sure purple needs a nerf... a 12 ap purple would somewhat comparrable to rage of the panther. Same cost, only significant damaging ability on hero, both relatively rare colour usage. By that comparison his purple is pure garbage. Hell, considering your average board is going to net around 7 swaps a level 85 Astonishing wolvie's 5 cover red would do almost as much damage as you are likely to do with a 10-15% nerfed 141 magneto purple.

vudu3

Just in time for the eventual nerf, my cMags is almost at the point of being usable. Currently 4/4/2. Is 5/5/3 generally considered the best build? I'm sure this has already been discussed in excruciating detail but the past several pages of this thread seem to be all discussion on nerf ideas.

Unknown

The average board has 9 blue and 9 red tiles. Even a level 3 MT will do close to 3K damage plus some possible cascades unless you wiped out most of the blue tiles already (but this already gives a huge advantage elsewhere). Comparing MT to Rage of the Panther is a bad comparison. Rage of the Panther is overpowered but BP's other two abilities are pretty bad and probably why he has one particular strong attack. All of Magneto's abilities are great. If you want to compare ability to ability, MT is likely Magneto's weakest skill and should be compared to something like Defense Grid. His weakest ability compares very favorably to every character's weakest ability in the game, and he's not exactly hurting on his strongest ability either.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

The average board has 9 blue and 9 red tiles. Even a level 3 MT will do close to 3K damage plus some possible cascades unless you wiped out most of the blue tiles already (but this already gives a huge advantage elsewhere). Comparing MT to Rage of the Panther is a bad comparison. Rage of the Panther is overpowered but BP's other two abilities are pretty bad and probably why he has one particular strong attack. All of Magneto's abilities are great. If you want to compare ability to ability, MT is likely Magneto's weakest skill and should be compared to something like Defense Grid. His weakest ability compares very favorably to every character's weakest ability in the game, and he's not exactly hurting on his strongest ability either.

The average board does NOT have 9 red and 9 blue, that is actually a mathematically rather unlikely situation. The fact both colours limit the effect of the ability rather than a cumulative count means the average is pretty damned close to 7, assuming colours are being matched without preference. You can't do something as simplistic as say 64 squares, 7 types of gem we can expect 64/7 = 9 of both colours to be there hooray!!! The fact that 10 blue and 8 red doesn't give the same outcome as 9 and 9, and the fact that, for any cumulative number of tiles every possible set of red and blue is less effective than the most even split, means the average is significantly below 9 matches. (for 18 tiles 9 + 9 is optimal then LITERALLY every other pairing gives less matches down to 18 + 0 as worst obviously but also least likely)

Also, if you'd read my post at all you'd see I was comparing them under the assumption his other abilities will get hammered. It doesn't take a lot of changes to make his red and blue pretty ****, not a lot at all.

Unknown

Magnetic Translocation is fine as it is. I also highly doubt they are going to nerf it again.

Magnetic Field just needs to be changed to affect only basic tiles and increased by 1 AP. This substantially lowers the ability to continously do it. Having it create blues isn't an issue as it actually lowers the effectiveness of his MT.

Magnetized Projectile needs to be changed to 5AP and have its damage scaled accordingly (about 500 damage in line with Hulks green (100/AP base).

Phaserhawk

Magneto is easy to fix and I can do it very balanced.

1. Switch Magneto's purple and yellow tile strength

2. Magnetic Field - Blue 8 AP
Magneto summons an electromagnetic shield, turning 2 purple or enviromental tiles into Blue Protect tiles, each with a strength of 15.

Level 2: Also transforms basic Yellow tiles.
Level 3: Also transforms basic Green tiles.
Level 4: Also transforms basic Red and Black tiles.
Level 5: Also transforms basic Blue and Protect tiles.
Max Level: Damage reduced by 75 per Protect tile

3. Magnetized Projectile - Red 5 AP
Magneto propels magnetized projectiles at his enemies destroying 3 random tiles and dealing an extra 21 damage.
Level Upgrades

Level 2: +10% Damage
Level 3: 5 Random tiles
Level 4: +10% Damage
Level 5: +10% Damage
Max Level: 500 extra damage

4. Magnetic Translocation - Purple 10 AP
Exploiting metals buried in the earth, Magneto lifts and moves huge sections of the battlefield, dropping them violently. Swaps up to 5 random Blue tiles with Red tiles. Does 38 damage for each swap.
Level Upgrades

Level 2: Swaps up to 6 tiles.
Level 3: Swaps up to 7 tiles. Max damage 300 per swap.
Level 4: Swaps up to 8 tiles. Max damage 350 per swap.
Level 5: Swaps up to 9 tiles. Max damage 400 per swap.

This fixes all of Magneto's issues, brings him inline and keeps him similar to his current state.

With blue he can still overwrite almost every tile, just not attack, strike, or web, if you got rid of the protect tile clause then i would say his blue should cost 6-7.

Red is easy, AP nerf, damage buff

Purple, people complain on some of the insance damage. so my solution is simple, cut off some of the high end damage, but also make the damage more consistent. Remember Human Torch and Daken fully levled on their red and blue do the highest dmg to AP ration in the game, this just brings Mags more in line.

If the devs did this, Mags would be balanced. Please consider

akboyce

Phaserhawk wrote:

With blue he can still overwrite almost every tile, just not attack, strike, or web, if you got rid of the protect tile clause then i would say his blue should cost 6-7.

Or countdown. This would drastically impact his power in pve. I am not saying his blue SHOULD hit count down tiles but it is definitely something to keep in mind.

PorkBelly

Phaserhawk wrote:

2. Magnetic Field - Blue 8 AP
Magneto summons an electromagnetic shield, turning 2 purple or enviromental tiles into Blue Protect tiles, each with a strength of 15.

Level 2: Also transforms basic Yellow tiles.
Level 3: Also transforms basic Green tiles.
Level 4: Also transforms basic Red and Black tiles.
Level 5: Also transforms basic Blue and Protect tiles.
Max Level: Damage reduced by 75 per Protect tile

Red and purple make sense.

Blue is still an over-nerf.

Blue is fine as is. Just raise AP to 6 rather than 5.

Unknown

@ Phaserhawk

You have managed to make Magneto weak on offence and irredeemably poor on defence there .

That blue is pretty terrible. Almost unusable at less than 4, covering protects is ****, can't use it to match really at that cost and the best you could hope for is a crit match cascading straight into a match which is not common enough to guarantee nor all that amazing, can't cover any important special tiles and 2x 75 protects requiring 3 matches to get going is decidedly meh for a lvl 141

Red is fine like that IMO except bonusses at 4 and 5 are so poor as to be worthless covers.

As I keep pointing out the average for a MT is about 7 matches, so at 5 that means under your plan 2.8k single target damage for 10ap or 280 damage per AP. Considering how his other 2 skills are **** and average at best in your setup that is just too underwhelming. MT is also pretty much his only worthwhile skill on defence so nerfing it on a hero who is TERRIBLE on defence now, before you nerf his other skills, makes no sense.

I will again compare him to BP.... you've made his blue only much use for the protect tiles and not incomperable to BP's underwhelming blue, his red is pretty average but maybe a little better than Bp's yellow and then an average 5 cover MT does less damage on a single target than a 5 cover RoP does on each individual member of the team for an extra 2ap....

C.Mags as he is now has an abusable mechanic and excessive strike tile synergy and a decent, but not more than that single target nuke. His broken mechanic is almost entirely removed by a single point increase in cost of his blue and removed by a second. His excessive strike tile synergy is removed by a cost of 5 in his red. Both skills become a lot weaker with JUST those changes... you then remove the ability to overwrite special tiles and you essentially gut his blue. No-one is itching for 2 so-so protect tiles for 6-7ap let alone 8. What's left then... a decent purple... so nerf that too? You could work for D3 with the quality of that balancing....