Upcoming Patch Preview - R50 Discussion

Unknown

It does seem a little like the rich have options such as offering to buy their spot in a larger alliance to lock in their ability to get alliance rewards, or can fund their already existing alliance letting more people in to ensure better ranking. Even the middle class can band together and each put forward a little to bolster their alliance to decent strength.

The options of those who do not have large HP reserves nor are lucky enough to find a spot in already established alliances does seem very limited...

Unknown

Cryptobrancus wrote:

It does seem a little like the rich have options such as offering to buy their spot in a larger alliance to lock in their ability to get alliance rewards, or can fund their already existing alliance letting more people in to ensure better ranking. Even the middle class can band together and each put forward a little to bolster their alliance to decent strength.

The options of those who do not have large HP reserves nor are lucky enough to find a spot in already established alliances does seem very limited...

I spent 10 bucks to get a spot. I think if there is one time to spend money on this game for sure, it's to get in, or grow your current alliance. I know our alliance isn't super elite. We have quite a few 2* players with only a handful with maxed 3*s, but we constantly are able to finish in the top ten category. There hasn't been one tourney that we didn't earn the free cover. It boils down to if you want to put a tiny amount of money into this game. Seeing as I get way more play-time out of this game compared to most $60 AAA titles on consoles, I think $10 was a small amount that gives great benefit. I personally have made only a little less HP than I spent since alliance rewards have started rolling, and if you count iso and covers, you are making a killing.

So I would definitely encourage people to pay a tiny amount to get into a good allliance or start one. It helps the devs and the game in the long run, and in the short run, you will clean up. Even a 20 member 1* squad can do great since mmr will let them get high points, and you only need top 50 in most pvp to get cover 1000 iso? and 100 HP.

Unknown

Full disclosure I too put $10 bucks into my alliance just yesterday actually. First money I have spent on the game and it is a good investment. I do think the devs do a great job and earn their due, and would recommend this path to others also.

However this is the first time where I could look at the game and see how not investing is harmful to your progress. Everything up to this point seemed like earning rewards, and strengthening your roster could be done solely through playing the game and putting in the time and effort, while buying in could help it was never required. You could be perfectly happy going at any pace you wanted as a F2P. So from the Dev's point of view well done they made me feel the $10 was worth it.

As it stands now you are shooting yourself in the foot if you are not willing or able to join a larger alliance or expand a smaller one, which smells rather similar to P2W...

mischiefmaker

HailMary wrote:

So, the real question isn't "What alliance score can 5 arbitrary casual players get?" The question is, at minimum, "What alliance score can 5 consistently-Top-5 players get, and is that enough for Alliance Top 100?" The truly meaningful question is this: What alliance size would a group of 5 Top-5 players generally expand to, and would this maybe-just-5-but-likely-more-people alliance get enough points for Alliance Top 100 if they seriously tried?

I don't know what the landscape is like now, but I can tell you that for the first alliance PvP (black panther yellow cover, I think, so fairly desirable), my alliance was five people: me and Lyrian, who would probably qualify as Top-5 players; two casual people we know IRL, who are more like top 10 to top 50, depending on how hard they want to try, and a random dude with a bunch of maxed 3*s (we got lucky there). We finished at 3350, which was good for something like 95th place.

That means we averaged about 660, with 3 players who I think would qualify as hardcore and 2 who are somewhere between hardcore and casual. Shortly thereafter we expanded, so I no longer have good data about what it takes to get to top 100, but IceIX said that a group of 5 would only have to average somewhere in the low 400's to get it done. That sounds ludicrously low to me but if that's accurate then 3 top-5 guys could basically do it on their own.

All that being said, this argument hinges on the assumption that a previously top-5 player can just automatically find an arbitrary number of other top-5 players. If not for the forums, the best I could do would be 2 hardcore players and 2 hardcore/casuals, all people I know IRL. That wouldn't be enough to get top 100.

daveomite

HailMary wrote:

daveomite wrote:

Thanks HailMary. I agree that scaling isn't directly related to alliances, but I'm assuming it is supposed to be due to how many grinders you may have in your particular bracket, and possibly your own stats/mmr, which I have no idea where that would place me.

Community scaling is based on everyone's performance in a particular node: the more people successfully complete it, the higher the scaling.
Individual scaling is based on your own performance: if you wipe out a lot on a node, its levels should decrease, but if you grind it a lot, its levels will soar.
MMR Is completely roster-strength-agnostic.

That's what I thought... at least so far as individual performance. I guess I do tend to win more than lose, but what I find odd is that a PVE can start, I can do one pass through all nodes - each node in the 40-60 level baddie range. Then after the one pass, I walk away and wait for a refresh. Upon that refresh, the baddies in virtually every node have doubled, if not tripled their level strengths - even though I only played it one time. That is why to me, it has to be related to more than just my own individual performance, and must also factor in performance of other people in my own bracket.

For instance this Unstable ISO 8 PVE - I do NOT have Steve Rodgers at all, so I cannot even touch any "essential" node at all. Have been up as high as mid 90's, and low as 280's. Currently around 260 or so with just over 20,000 points. I'm capped at how many points I can get, so yes, I have had to replay most of the other nodes more often than I normally would. But the goon levels, for instance, jumped from goons in the 45-50 range to 160-170's to 230's after one play each time. That just seems a bit bonkers - and I know other people seem to experience the same type of massive changes.

HailMary wrote:

daveomite wrote:

And I see where you were, similar here I guess. Though, I don't have iron man 35 maxed, I don't own iron man 40 either. IM35 and MStorm both 45+ level, and BW is maxed. I have both Thor and obw at 85. Psylocke at 80. Punisher at around 66, ares at 61, magsMN/c storm/astonishing wolvie all just under 60. 3* Thor at 51, X force wolvie at around 45.

Well, now that you specify that, you're definitely farther along than I was. Nice work! I'm particularly jealous that you have more Punisher than I do even now!

Lol... maybe it was lucky draws I guess. I did manage a few lucky ones, won Psy's first card in a PVE, then got a Punisher later on a random pull from a PVE, then won another Psy and Punisher card or two from other PVE's I think, then obviously pulls. I have had a few decent pulls... my problem is for many of them, like Hulk, GBW, Patch, etc... I got the one color card and that's it. I can sometimes go 30-40 standard pulls with nothing but the same Yelena, BW, Hawk, Jugs, etc over an over. At least each bum card like that is ISO once sold at least, so it's not a complete loss.

HailMary wrote:

As for your other specific 3*s, Rags is not so good. I'd aim for getting the newer 3*s (nice Psylocke!), as nowadays, they're featured multiple times as event rewards shortly after release, so getting 3/3/3 just for consistently great event performance is not out of the question. The catch is that this generally requires good PvE placement, and your scaling issues are pretty horrendous.

Yeah... love me some Psy, she kicks some butt when she has been buffed. That Brotherhood ISO PVE is what got me Psy to begin with, and got her pretty early, and leaned on her heavy as I really only had a few 2*'s at the time. My favorite team in that event was Psy, CStorm and MagsMN and combined, they were awesome. Of course, my Psy isn't as buffed as that one was in the event... but would be nice to get her there, lol

HailMary wrote:

Hahaha, that never changes. I get so much Juggs, Yelena, Hawkeye from standard tokens. I did get two BagMen today, though, so that was... differently meh.

Ahh... the infamous BagMan. I seem to get him all the time. I got him early on, actually used him a few times, then walked away very quickly. Now he's in InstaSell land for me normally.

HailMary wrote:

As for cover sharing, I've been convinced that cover sharing will essentially commoditize higher-level covers, and open up the field to serious operations that will farm the s--- out of covers. I am now against cover sharing.

Yeah... I can see how that may be a possible issue with the idea. Still think something like that would be great, but only if done right to where it couldn't be compromised easily. With so many cheaters and stealers out there, that's always a concern. Maybe even if there was a small HP cost to share a cover... like 10 or 25, etc. Each cover costing you money to share - might act like a deterrent for some of those bad, evil doers out there. Well, at least the ones who aren't also hacking in some crazy amount of HP for themselves.

HailMary

To clarify, the "community scaling" I mentioned earlier impacts everyone's levels. So, it's not only your own performance that impacts your levels. I don't know what's going on with early L200+ level spikes, but that's been a persistent, widespread problem. Generally, massive community scaling is blamed on Spiderman, i.e. players who use Spidey's infinite stunlock to make every fight trivial.

daveomite wrote:

I'm capped at how many points I can get, so yes, I have had to replay most of the other nodes more often than I normally would. But the goon levels, for instance, jumped from goons in the 45-50 range to 160-170's to 230's after one play each time. That just seems a bit bonkers - and I know other people seem to experience the same type of massive changes.

Yep, we had several Djangoliers experience that across several PvEs. It's... unpredictable.

daveomite wrote:

That Brotherhood ISO PVE is what got me Psy to begin with, and got her pretty early, and leaned on her heavy as I really only had a few 2*'s at the time. My favorite team in that event was Psy, CStorm and MagsMN and combined, they were awesome. Of course, my Psy isn't as buffed as that one was in the event... but would be nice to get her there, lol

Yep, buffed CStorm + MN Mags was a white-hot freight train of hurt in Brotherhood, even with only 2 covers on MN Mags. They virtually carried me through the entire thing.

KaioShinDE

mischiefmaker wrote:

That means we averaged about 660, with 3 players who I think would qualify as hardcore and 2 who are somewhere between hardcore and casual. Shortly thereafter we expanded, so I no longer have good data about what it takes to get to top 100, but IceIX said that a group of 5 would only have to average somewhere in the low 400's to get it done. That sounds ludicrously low to me but if that's accurate then 3 top-5 guys could basically do it on their own.

I dunno at which point in time he said that, but when our alliance was 16 people we hovered around #60 with an average higher than 400 points. I have no idea how a 5 man alliance is supposed to get into the Top100. All around us on the current ranking page were mostly 20 man alliances.

This is why some people called the whole alliance system a sort of pyramid scheme for the rich to get richer. Right now when the system is new, it's easy to get into a Top100 alliance. Being in a 20-man one basically guarantees it. But as the game grows, eventually the Top100 will simply be full with 20 man alliances and then the individual average will come back into play much more. And eventually as the game grows being in a 20-man alliance is simply the entry fee to get a shot at rewards at all and everyone else gets 140 ISO.

I have the luck to be in a 20 man alliance. We are currently even in the Top10 of the Unstable ISO event. But I still realize the system is far from flawless. If I was a player with no interest in alliances I'd only have noticed a massive reward nerf for me personally since alliances were introduced. Let's not forget the Top100 cover was removed from personal rewards and in PvP tourneys 50HP were removed from progression rewards. It's easy to sing kumbaya when you are in the Top 5% who reap only the benefits of the system, but there is a shadow side to it too and I think people on the forums who get all the rewards on a silver platter without trying are too quick to dismiss it.

/My 2 cents.

kalex716

KaioShinDE wrote:

When I started getting into 3*s the selection was much much smaller. Villians were restricted to LRs so the only 3* that were offered as rewards were Punisher, IM40 or Spidey. That made it pretty easy to cover up and get started in high level play. Now that the covers are spread out over so many different characters, I can only imagine how much harder it is. I'm kinda feeling the frustrations of it, I want to level my Panther, but I can't do anything except wait until he is offered as reward again. Which might be weeks. Until then he is useless to me, even at Lv60 unless he is major buffed in an event. Judging from some conversations in my alliance with 2* players, that's pretty much their entire roster situation. Being flooded with new covers they can't use every week. I think the devs should just be more focused with the rewards. Have 4 events in a row with the same 3* as reward so new people have the chance to get covered up and use that character properly.

1000x this. I can get a few covers of each new character then we are rolling on to a new set before i'm able to really get one off the ground.

Unknown

i-am-amish wrote:

I spent 10 bucks to get a spot. I think if there is one time to spend money on this game for sure, it's to get in, or grow your current alliance. I know our alliance isn't super elite. We have quite a few 2* players with only a handful with maxed 3*s, but we constantly are able to finish in the top ten category. There hasn't been one tourney that we didn't earn the free cover. It boils down to if you want to put a tiny amount of money into this game. Seeing as I get way more play-time out of this game compared to most $60 AAA titles on consoles, I think $10 was a small amount that gives great benefit. I personally have made only a little less HP than I spent since alliance rewards have started rolling, and if you count iso and covers, you are making a killing.

So I would definitely encourage people to pay a tiny amount to get into a good allliance or start one. It helps the devs and the game in the long run, and in the short run, you will clean up. Even a 20 member 1* squad can do great since mmr will let them get high points, and you only need top 50 in most pvp to get cover 1000 iso? and 100 HP.

Pretty much my thoughts, I've payed 50 € for games that I've played for 8 hours and been done with them. Of course you get the production value like graphics, audio, story etc. with it but still. This I've played for dozens of hours so spending a bit in it is sorta the right thing to do, and for the most part you don't pay for nonsense, as long as you don't spend it on tokens if you've got any usable characters. The ally spot was the best deal I've done as the hp is back with interest already.

I always say to myself that this was the last purchase for me, but I just know I'm not gonna be able to resist the next iso sale they'll put up.

Unknown

Cryptobrancus wrote:

As it stands now you are shooting yourself in the foot if you are not willing or able to join a larger alliance or expand a smaller one, which smells rather similar to P2W...

Technically at this point it is P2W because no one else is doing it. So if you shell out 14500 that gets you a full alliance, if you get HP on sale, this is close to half of a stark salary. Divide that between 20 players, at that is about 5 bucks a person. If some one was industrious and set up their own alliance and got people to pay 10 bucks a pop, they would actually make money and still have HP left over. If they only set it up $5 they still come out ahead at least 5500 HP 7500HP if bought durrin gthe sale. So, P2W, sure for now. But it brings a great bit of added community to the game with this alliance feature that would not be here otherwise. Yeah the forums are cool and you can talk, but an alliance is a common goal, as well as light rivalry. MPQ will grow so much more, the more they expand this feature. So I don't mind them changing the game, so there is incentive to spend a little money. You get too much out of the little money you put in to it.

Unknown

P2W doesn't mean "things cost money." It means the only way to compete is by spending loads of money. MPQ is still a F2P game. As with most F2P games, if you spend money, you gain an advantage, but you by no means HAVE to spend money.

Unknown

Yeah, we can keep arguing what ifs and hypotheticals but I think the reality is the revolution is already over. Alliances are here to stay and going to be required for the best rewards, and will have many exciting benefits that contribute to the long term health of the game as a whole.

daveomite

HailMary wrote:

To clarify, the "community scaling" I mentioned earlier impacts everyone's levels. So, it's not only your own performance that impacts your levels. I don't know what's going on with early L200+ level spikes, but that's been a persistent, widespread problem. Generally, massive community scaling is blamed on Spiderman, i.e. players who use Spidey's infinite stunlock to make every fight trivial.

Right. My problem is - I don't currently run with Spidey much at all since I can't really level him. Until then, stronger blues are in place, but mainly, higher health levels. Once I can get more cards and level him up more, then great, I may use him. But, from what I hear, by the time I actually get those cards, he'll most likely already be nerfed by then.

HailMary wrote:

Yep, we had several Djangoliers experience that across several PvEs. It's... unpredictable.

Figured so. I couldn't imagine it was only happening to me, then once I found the forum and realized a lot of other people were running into the same types of things.

HailMary wrote:

Yep, buffed CStorm + MN Mags was a white-hot freight train of hurt in Brotherhood, even with only 2 covers on MN Mags. They virtually carried me through the entire thing.

Yup, yup. Definitely a freight train in that event. Not too shabby out of the event either me thinks.

kalex716 wrote:

1000x this. I can get a few covers of each new character then we are rolling on to a new set before i'm able to really get one off the ground.

Agreed. I'm still in the game less than 50 days though. But the last event where some people won Steve Rogers - I obviously didn't manage that. But right after that, before I can even get him, the very next event requires him for yet another brand new character. So, technically, that could be two back to back misses of the new or lazy character as either I couldn't ramp up to it due to scaling, or can't get to it due to not having the required character. But, if I can manage to maintain proximety to the top 200, at least striking distance... maybe I can land in the top 200 and at least get one HT card. At 238 now, but obviously, not being able to play all nodes does restrict my ability to score enough. But, I seem to be pretty steady with placement most of the last day or so... but of course, that will change a lot between now and the end. What's frustrating is that I'm only about 5k behind #1 yet have no way to catch up really. Right now, the two nodes I can't play without SRcap would give me around 2k alone on one play each.

Unknown

jozier wrote:

P2W doesn't mean "things cost money." It means the only way to compete is by spending loads of money. MPQ is still a F2P game. As with most F2P games, if you spend money, you gain an advantage, but you by no means HAVE to spend money.

there are a few people in our alliance that don't spend any money at all and they are still top placers in most of the events.

one thing about what a 5 person alliance can do. for the first alliance event, me and a couple others were unable to join our alliance so we setup a temporary one to get the BP alliance award. we were able to get up to around 79 with basically 4 people and one temp account that scored 300 points.

although I do think that the third cover should be put back in the solo reward system. I am normally a solo player in games and there shouldn't be such a hard core penalty for not joining an alliance. When it comes to covers, everyone should have a chance at winning any cover that is available. If you are never able to get that third cover you will be handicapped for events that either require or boost them.

daveomite

davecazz wrote:

jozier wrote:

P2W doesn't mean "things cost money." It means the only way to compete is by spending loads of money. MPQ is still a F2P game. As with most F2P games, if you spend money, you gain an advantage, but you by no means HAVE to spend money.

there are a few people in our alliance that don't spend any money at all and they are still top placers in most of the events.

one thing about what a 5 person alliance can do. for the first alliance event, me and a couple others were unable to join our alliance so we setup a temporary one to get the BP alliance award. we were able to get up to around 79 with basically 4 people and one temp account that scored 300 points.

although I do think that the third cover should be put back in the solo reward system. I am normally a solo player in games and there shouldn't be such a hard core penalty for not joining an alliance. When it comes to covers, everyone should have a chance at winning any cover that is available. If you are never able to get that third cover you will be handicapped for events that either require or boost them.

Agreed on all of that davecazz and jozier. I agree the third cover should probably be put back in too... but, actually - I would just be happy if the below 200 reward covers were SRcap ones, instead of Ares. That still leaves HT at the Top 2 down, and giving anyone WITHOUT SRcap a chance to get at least one SRcap cover, even if they can't play all of the nodes, etc. Maybe just the 200-300 mark there would be one cover for SRcap, then anything below could remain Ares or whatever random character cover they choose for it. But given that SRcap is already showing some importance due to his own PVE, his own PVP and his buffed nature already - it would be nice for a solo person to have a good shot at getting one, as well as any alliances that missed out on him and/or needs for covers.

Unknown

davecazz wrote:

there shouldn't be such a hard core penalty for not joining an alliance. When it comes to covers, everyone should have a chance at winning any cover that is available. If you are never able to get that third cover you will be handicapped for events that either require or boost them.

I do agree with this. D3 needs to either find a way to make the solo players feel like they are getting fairly treated, which at this point I don't know how they would do that ... a non alliance leaderboard?
OR They really need to put out some banners and press releases saying Welcome to MPQ, to increase your chances at the best rewards join an alliance! So right from the start people know what the game is geared towards. Expecting it to be one way and finding out is another is the best way to cause frustrated players.

Unknown

daveomite wrote:

Agreed on all of that davecazz and jozier. I agree the third cover should probably be put back in too... but, actually - I would just be happy if the below 200 reward covers were SRcap ones, instead of Ares. That still leaves HT at the Top 2 down, and giving anyone WITHOUT SRcap a chance to get at least one SRcap cover, even if they can't play all of the nodes, etc. Maybe just the 200-300 mark there would be one cover for SRcap, then anything below could remain Ares or whatever random character cover they choose for it. But given that SRcap is already showing some importance due to his own PVE, his own PVP and his buffed nature already - it would be nice for a solo person to have a good shot at getting one, as well as any alliances that missed out on him and/or needs for covers.

That would screw up the progression model for the game. 3* covers are supposed to be hard to reach until you can build a team that can compete for them. I have no issue with required characters as long as it's possible to get them. if you just have a 1* or low 2* team then you need to bust your butt in order to compete. It only takes a few weeks of playing until you can get there. Sure you might miss that character this time around but make it so you dont miss out on the next new character.

Cryptobrancus wrote:

I do agree with this. D3 needs to either find a way to make the solo players feel like they are getting fairly treated, which at this point I don't know how they would do that ... a non alliance leaderboard?
OR They really need to put out some banners and press releases saying Welcome to MPQ, to increase your chances at the best rewards join an alliance! So right from the start people know what the game is geared towards. Expecting it to be one way and finding out is another is the best way to cause frustrated players.

They should supply Alliance Speed Dating to all non-alliance members

DD-The-Mighty

Cryptobrancus wrote:

davecazz wrote:

there shouldn't be such a hard core penalty for not joining an alliance. When it comes to covers, everyone should have a chance at winning any cover that is available. If you are never able to get that third cover you will be handicapped for events that either require or boost them.

I do agree with this. D3 needs to either find a way to make the solo players feel like they are getting fairly treated, which at this point I don't know how they would do that ... a non alliance leaderboard?
OR They really need to put out some banners and press releases saying Welcome to MPQ, to increase your chances at the best rewards join an alliance! So right from the start people know what the game is geared towards. Expecting it to be one way and finding out is another is the best way to cause frustrated players.

thirding on all you gents points. While I do appreciate the current influx of Iso and HP opportunities. I think the cover system of old is preferable to this current one. Still allow top alliances to get the massive boosts to their iso/HP coffers but at least let individual performances determine cover rewards. With the rate at which the character rosters are expanding (and the need for roster space is getting more and more expensive) there is more than enough content to sustain player engagement, there really doesn't need to be more of these low-content-beta-status progress roadblocks thrown up.

Unknown

UncleSam wrote:

locked wrote:

Well, or this. I just can't imagine myself acquiring enough HP while being F2P to buy even a 600 HP slot for an alliance (thankfully have a backup account with spare HP). I guess then alliances are a more advanced feature for kewl bananas that we forum goers are?

I had stockpiled over 4000hp before alliances came out as a f2p player. Dropped it all into creating an alliance to get up to about 10-11 slots then had people buy a slot when they joined. So as f2p it is possible. It just takes time. With as many events that run these days finishing top50 in them will net you some good hps in short order.

And we thank you for it!!!

daveomite

davecazz wrote:

That would screw up the progression model for the game. 3* covers are supposed to be hard to reach until you can build a team that can compete for them. I have no issue with required characters as long as it's possible to get them. if you just have a 1* or low 2* team then you need to bust your butt in order to compete. It only takes a few weeks of playing until you can get there. Sure you might miss that character this time around but make it so you dont miss out on the next new character.

What exactly are you considering a low 2* team? I'm curious and want to understand. As I explained earlier in the tread, I have 2 85lvl 2*'s, Thor and OBW, and numerous other 2*'s in the 65-70 range, plus two 3*'s (psy and punisher) in the 70-90 range and mThor at 51. I have hulk, GSW, Spidey, Patch and others, but hardly have gotten any covers so can't level them much. Have BP around level 60 or so. So, my 2* team, and how I used my team is what allowed me the opportunities to get Psy, Punisher, mThor, etc.

I've only been playing less than 50 days mind you. So yes, I have busted my butt and placed decently in most all PVE's so far, top 50 or 100 in most and in first in my bracket on Brotherhood ISO on the main and most daily subs, which is the PVE I got both Psy and Punisher. On the SRcap event, I still played daily, but couldn't as much as I usually can - and that, on top of scaling through the roof that I was running into, there was only so much I could do. I still managed to be top 150 on most of the dailies for that, but I think not high enough in the main bracket for SRcap. Currently at 21,600 approx in the current PVE even without said SRcap mandated nodes.

It may very well "screw up the progression model" for someone like you and your top placing alliance, but not so much for me as I started just before the new Alliance push, but after most of the newer characters started getting released. So ,though I've been lucky with some pulls here and there - given the amount of characters, and the constant quick switching of PVE to win a new character, then an immediate PVE directly after it mandating use of that new character - it can make it rather difficult. Now, if they had "loaner" SRcap available for those nodes requiring him, even in just a minimum level one, at least they could be played and the points won.

I'm certainly not asking for any handouts, I'm fine fighting as much as or more than others. I play daily, every day, hours a day. Even if I had to pay actual HP to get SRcap, I would rather have him than not during a PVE like this.