** Black Widow (Original) ** [PRE 2014-06]

Unknown

Ozark, I've wondered about this too.

Would it be too much to want her black power to be effective even if other characters do the matching of blue, purple, and black tiles? Or would that make her way too powerful?

Unknown

FoxMulder wrote:

Ozark, I've wondered about this too.

Would it be too much to want her black power to be effective even if other characters do the matching of blue, purple, and black tiles? Or would that make her way too powerful?

Way too powerful, letting others tank her colors while she heals, steals and does double strike tile damage

Right now it's a tactical decision you have to make... like for instance I keep Loki at level 80 so he doesn't take those matches when I use them with Patch.

Phaserhawk

pasa_ wrote:

Your tables just assume the opponent has full stores of AP every turn rather than collect it the usual way?

Yes, there is so many variables, the only way you can acurately mesaure is the best case scenario. Which is why I assumed the enemy team always had 4 of every color every turn, that way you could see how fast each version could go off, and how much AP they could steal. Obviously this will never happen but it allows you to go see what could happen and then figure out your own probababilities.

As I said, if OBW is not on the purple tile, then 5/5/3 or 5/3/5 is the better build. 3/5/5 is very aggressive and seeks to match purple quickly where 5/3/5 is more defensive and allows purple to come as it may, only making sure that an opposing OBW doesn't go off.

Unknown

Phaserhawk wrote:

pasa_ wrote:

Your tables just assume the opponent has full stores of AP every turn rather than collect it the usual way?

Yes, there is so many variables, the only way you can acurately mesaure is the best case scenario. Which is why I assumed the enemy team always had 4 of every color every turn, that way you could see how fast each version could go off, and how much AP they could steal. Obviously this will never happen but it allows you to go see what could happen and then figure out your own probababilities.

As I said, if OBW is not on the purple tile, then 5/5/3 or 5/3/5 is the better build. 3/5/5 is very aggressive and seeks to match purple quickly where 5/3/5 is more defensive and allows purple to come as it may, only making sure that an opposing OBW doesn't go off.

That aspect changes things a lot actually. I guess with the cheap OBW you go for the earliest steal. That will hardly find all the stocks filled. By the time 11P is ready the AI normally has 2 in random stocks and over 4 in more important ones. First steal is unlikely to grab the full potential -- but for the later used one it has better saturation.

And in later game, when AP had time to collect and abilities either ready or really close getting 4 is even more important both ways. There the difference is really spectacular. If they happen to collected purple too, even more as you your next steal costs only effective 7 too.

I recall plenty of games the AI had 50+ roses and I had 11 purples waiting they get used already

Phaserhawk

pasa_ wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

pasa_ wrote:

Your tables just assume the opponent has full stores of AP every turn rather than collect it the usual way?

Yes, there is so many variables, the only way you can acurately mesaure is the best case scenario. Which is why I assumed the enemy team always had 4 of every color every turn, that way you could see how fast each version could go off, and how much AP they could steal. Obviously this will never happen but it allows you to go see what could happen and then figure out your own probababilities.

As I said, if OBW is not on the purple tile, then 5/5/3 or 5/3/5 is the better build. 3/5/5 is very aggressive and seeks to match purple quickly where 5/3/5 is more defensive and allows purple to come as it may, only making sure that an opposing OBW doesn't go off.

That aspect changes things a lot actually. I guess with the cheap OBW you go for the earliest steal. That will hardly find all the stocks filled. By the time 11P is ready the AI normally has 2 in random stocks and over 4 in more important ones. First steal is unlikely to grab the full potential -- but for the later used one it has better saturation.

And in later game, when AP had time to collect and abilities either ready or really close getting 4 is even more important both ways. There the difference is really spectacular. If they happen to collected purple too, even more as you your next steal costs only effective 7 too.

I recall plenty of games the AI had 50+ roses and I had 11 purples waiting they get used already

I so which I had the covers and ISO to create a 5/3/5 OBW as well. I use to think 3/5/5 or 5/5/3 were the only viable builds but your 5/3/5 is a really good build as well. Now I unfortunately have been on the receiving end recently of some 5/x/x OBW, and yeah, it's game if she goes off. as if things fall poorly and you dont' get a lot of AP steal, and kill OBw, she's gonna steal your purple. I have decided though, that when my roster gets solid enough that OBW can't match blue anymore (I think as it stands she will always match purple unless paired with Spiderman, Daredevil or Loki currently), however blue is another story, and I have noticed, when I cannot match blue with her an lose that extra steal, she becomes extremely slow, to the point you can't get that rapid steal that is where I am going to make her 5/3/5

Unknown

Recently most of free games I use CMags. And if with OBW, blue is processed by Mags. And he has a really good use for it too. Too bad espoinage is put to rest both for stealing or damage but he quite makes it up. Purple is indeed stays with OBW for the glitch Mags collects yellow instead of purple.

It's also interesting when you use combo where OBW is not first target. I go to kill Storm first (whichever). What leaves OBW some elbowroom. And in defensive teams mentioned Hood. Now that must be really nasty to fight.

Unknown

This character is obviously too powerful for a two star character. Because of her abilities this character crushes much more powerful foes and that's great but I'm sick of seeing her face in the PvP arena. This character has completely killed the diversity of opponents teams. Just see how much iso you spend skipping matches before you find one without Black Widow Original in the mix

Unknown

Am I the only one who sees OBW and thinks, sweet, a team with a 3K health character? easy points

NorthernPolarity

SirKopath wrote:

Am I the only one who sees OBW and thinks, sweet, a team with a 3K health character? easy points

My thoughts exactly. She might be tougher for people that haven't transitioned to 3* characters yet though.

mischiefmaker

While I don't really have a problem with facing OBW, it does seem like there's an awful lot of people using her, and she's probably better than all but a handful of 3* characters. I've always found it odd how much health she has, for someone who is clearly a support character with incredibly powerful abilities.

I think she'd still be quite playable at CStorm-level health or even lower.

Unknown

SirKopath wrote:

Am I the only one who sees OBW and thinks, sweet, a team with a 3K health character? easy points

That's my usual reaction, but every so often there's a blue and purple rich map that makes her impossible to play against. Maybe 1 in 20 matches she's a problem; the rest of the time she's an easy kill.

Unknown

dubmethod20 wrote:

This character is obviously too powerful for a two star character. Because of her abilities this character crushes much more powerful foes and that's great but I'm sick of seeing her face in the PvP arena. This character has completely killed the diversity of opponents teams. Just see how much iso you spend skipping matches before you find one without Black Widow Original in the mix

I am inclined to agree. Mine was stuck with no blue covers for ages but I have gotten her up to level 45 recently and she just makes matches easier, safer, and oftentimes even faster. I can take on teams of 85's with little to no problem using her and heal back up the small amount of damage I took because I denied the other team all their AP.

So what if your team is strong enough to eat a defending OBW for lunch. Its what she does on offense that makes her so tinykitchen powerful

Unknown

I don't get what's with people talking about lack of HPs. She's got 3100 HP and the average 2* has 3500. The only characters with 4000 or more HP at 2* are Moonstone, Captain America, Thor, and Ares. Captain America and Moonstone are nobody's idea of a threat. Ares effectively has a lot less than 5800 HP because his skills hurt himself (Onslaught often hurts you more than it hurts the other team). Thor, while sturdy, is hardly feared. She doesn't have a lot of HP compared to a 3*, but that's the inherent difference of 2* versus 3*. The average 3* has 5800 HP!

I'm not sure if giving extra few HP is a way to balance an otherwise overpowered character (see Modern Storm), but OBW doesn't even occupy the 'extra low HP' category like The Hood/Classic Storm/Modern Storm.

OzarkBoatswain

I use her on offense, and I consider her the best ** character before you get high-level *** characters in your team (because her black becomes less useful).

I would lower her heal a bit. Also I think Espionage causes more damage even when there's nothing to steal, which feels like a bug.

Otherwise on defense she's not that bad. Deny her purple and she goes down easy. And if you're going to be making purple matches, why not try out Magneto Now, who has an even better purple ability? Also try Wolvie/Thor/Ares as they are immune to her black steal ability, since they never use those colors.

Unknown

She's one of the only 2-stars that a person with 3-star characters would run. I think that says something. Her healing is on par with Spideys imo, which seems pretty ridiculous.

Imo the game needs more support characters. She has 0 alternatives and only 2 replacements (Spidey or Hood).

mags1587

ihearthawthats wrote:

Imo the game needs more support characters. She has 0 alternatives and only 2 replacements (Spidey or Hood).

I would agree with this. I am getting a little tired of seeing OBW on so many teams, but I don't think she needs to be changed, we just need more options for good support characters.

Unknown

Ozark Boatswain wrote:

I use her on offense, and I consider her the best ** character before you get high-level *** characters in your team (because her black becomes less useful).

I would lower her heal a bit. Also I think Espionage causes more damage even when there's nothing to steal, which feels like a bug.

Otherwise on defense she's not that bad. Deny her purple and she goes down easy. And if you're going to be making purple matches, why not try out Magneto Now, who has an even better purple ability? Also try Wolvie/Thor/Ares as they are immune to her black steal ability, since they never use those colors.

I use a MNMags / CStorm combo, denying her purple and feeding CStorms crazy blue ability to stun her for four turns. I see OBW and see easy points (most of the time).

kensterr

SirKopath wrote:

Am I the only one who sees OBW and thinks, sweet, a team with a 3K health character? easy points

Well I lost loads of points in all the Heroes Lightning Round running OBW with whatever buffed hero there is. On offense with non-high HP or non buffed heroes it's OK, but on the defense running her with any team = gg.com. So no, she's not ruining PVP for anyone unless you are using her for defense.

Unknown

She ruins PvP for bad players who don't understand the concepts of color denial and targeted damage.

Unknown

But we do not need a gold OBW!