** Black Widow (Original) ** [PRE 2014-06]

Phaserhawk

kermitk50 wrote:

so I used the character thread post to find this thread to look at how each skill increases with levels and found that the black skill is not listed anywhere on the first page. I dont know if it was mentioned later, but since this is the "official" thread for OBW, can we get an update on the first post that includes her black skill?

Espionage - Black Passive
(PASSIVE) Black Widow steals enemy secrets. When she attacks by making a Purple match and the enemy has Purple AP, she steals 1 from them.
Level Upgrades

Level 2: Also steals 1 Blue AP when making a Blue match.
Level 3: Also steals 1 Black AP when making a Black match.
Level 4: Also deals 6 damage when making a Purple, Blue, or Black match.
Level 5: Increases damage to 12 when making a Purple, Blue, or Black match.
Max Level: 112 additional damage

Unknown

I usually think your analysis is top-notch, Phantron, but I have to disagree with you here. Getting AR at 8 AP instead of 11 is huge. Sure, the latter can seal games, but the former is much more consistent.

Also, while I do agree that having the Blue at 5 instead of 3 isn't a great improvement, "win-more" heals when you have the match in the bag are hardly irrelevant since that health helps you coast into the next battle.

Unknown

It is consistent, but from my experience, -too- consistent, if such a thing exists. When I run 3 AR, I find myself saving it for a few turns before using it. Same thing can happen with 5 AR. I personally feel that 11 AP is right in the sweet spot of not being to early but not being too late either. I mean like what did people do with m.BW's 16 cost AR? Yeah, she had m.Storm backing her up, but obw has Espionage.

Unknown

5 purple can be brutal when it hits, because the second one is cheaper and while the ai is not going to get 8 of everything off you because you won't have it, what it gets on the second go around is your most precious AP, because that is the stuff you were collecting to power your best abilities.

Listen, the only reason any of us ever get hit with almost any power is because of an unlucky cascade. We are all smart enough and saavy enough to deny the opponent from firing off the really dangerous things. So, as far as bad cascades go, getting to 11AP is not a huge difference to getting to 8AP - in some cases (with espionage and three purple in the bank) it's identical! It is never more than ONE unlucky drop. And after a bad cascade, the second use is often just a purple match away.

I would much rather face the 8AP version than the 11AP. 3 covers is annoying to me, but 5 covers is outright dangerous.

Unknown

dlaw008 wrote:

I would much rather face the 8AP version than the 11AP. 3 covers is annoying to me, but 5 covers is outright dangerous.

LOL, did I say the same some 20 posts before?
And I still don't get the idea of leaving the opponent Mags, GSBW, OBW, spy, liutenant, even Moonstone/Venom and others with purples to haunt you.

mischiefmaker

dlaw008 wrote:

Listen, the only reason any of us ever get hit with almost any power is because of an unlucky cascade. We are all smart enough and saavy enough to deny the opponent from firing off the really dangerous things. So, as far as bad cascades go, getting to 11AP is not a huge difference to getting to 8AP - in some cases (with espionage and three purple in the bank) it's identical! It is never more than ONE unlucky drop. And after a bad cascade, the second use is often just a purple match away.

I would much rather face the 8AP version than the 11AP. 3 covers is annoying to me, but 5 covers is outright dangerous.

I actually have the exact opposite experience. I love facing the 11AP version -- in all my matches against OBW I'm pretty sure I've been hit with that version exactly once, a 3-match that cascaded a 5-match purple (plus espionage) that cascaded a 3-match purple (plus espionage), game over. I've been hit with the 8AP version plenty though, and not just on cascades; sometimes I just can't prevent the AI from collecting three (or, more commonly, 2) purple matches before I kill her.

On offense, purple is such a weak color that I'd much rather steal everything else a few turns earlier to get my machine rolling. I mean, what purple powers do you really care about preventing? Opposing OBW, sure, but you're going to target her first, and if she's down by the time they get 11AP, there's a good chance nobody else on the team can use it. MMN and BWGS are horrible in the hands of the AI; Loki is mostly an annoyance. That leaves CMags, and I don't see him very often. I'd rather optimize for the common case.

MarvelMan

Thank you mischief. Ive been following this and was feeling like something was a little off, your post highlighted it for me. While it makes sense that the 5 purple version is better based on longer matches against higher level opps, by that time youre using/facing other better chars. At the top end of the 2* curve Im facing very few opps that can take advantage of left over purple and it means I get the little extra heal that helps with extending play sessions.

Unknown

And today's PvE reminded me of something else I forgot to mention: 3 covers on AR is so, so good when fighting a level 230 Juggernaut or Ares

Unknown

gamar wrote:

And today's PvE reminded me of something else I forgot to mention: 3 covers on AR is so, so good when fighting a level 230 Juggernaut or Ares

Juggernaut is a very special case guy because he only needs 6 red to kill a guy on your team, preventing the first Headbutt have an unusual precedence since it's very hard to imagine defeating him while losing a guy immediately.

Even level 230 Ares you can take a couple of Onslaughts if you rotate the right guy in front. By the time he has enough for Sunder/Rampage, you should have enough time to get the tiles you need.

Phaserhawk

mischiefmaker wrote:

dlaw008 wrote:

Listen, the only reason any of us ever get hit with almost any power is because of an unlucky cascade. We are all smart enough and saavy enough to deny the opponent from firing off the really dangerous things. So, as far as bad cascades go, getting to 11AP is not a huge difference to getting to 8AP - in some cases (with espionage and three purple in the bank) it's identical! It is never more than ONE unlucky drop. And after a bad cascade, the second use is often just a purple match away.

I would much rather face the 8AP version than the 11AP. 3 covers is annoying to me, but 5 covers is outright dangerous.

I actually have the exact opposite experience. I love facing the 11AP version -- in all my matches against OBW I'm pretty sure I've been hit with that version exactly once, a 3-match that cascaded a 5-match purple (plus espionage) that cascaded a 3-match purple (plus espionage), game over. I've been hit with the 8AP version plenty though, and not just on cascades; sometimes I just can't prevent the AI from collecting three (or, more commonly, 2) purple matches before I kill her.

On offense, purple is such a weak color that I'd much rather steal everything else a few turns earlier to get my machine rolling. I mean, what purple powers do you really care about preventing? Opposing OBW, sure, but you're going to target her first, and if she's down by the time they get 11AP, there's a good chance nobody else on the team can use it. MMN and BWGS are horrible in the hands of the AI; Loki is mostly an annoyance. That leaves CMags, and I don't see him very often. I'd rather optimize for the common case.

Yes!!!! Just happened. I had banked purple, I match green, AI gets purple with OBW and steals one of mine. They are at 4 I'm at 2. I can't match purple for the next 2 turns. They do steal one of mine they are at 8 and guess what. I got AR'd this happens so much. I will hands down agree that 5 in AR is a monster and in PvE i do think it is the better choice. But in PVP where you have to be quick. I can't waste one more turn

Unknown

Yeah, defensively speaking, an enemy obw with 3 AR can be pretty annoying. 5 AR can be deadly with a lucky cascade, true, but deadly because of 5 AR or because they got a lucky cascade?

Unknown

ihearthawthats wrote:

Yeah, defensively speaking, an enemy obw with 3 AR can be pretty annoying. 5 AR can be deadly with a lucky cascade, true, but deadly because of 5 AR or because they got a lucky cascade?

I think people attribute any loss as bad luck as opposed to just being outplayed.

An enemy getting 11 AP of one color is really not an earth shattering event. I see this happen all the time in PvP even running some of the most broken offense combos. Do people forget that back in the glory days of Wolverine and Thor, it's not unusual to take a Thunder Strike which requires 12 yellow? Yes, it is somewhat accelerated by Thor's red, but back in these days everyone died way quicker too so there's considerably less time to collect AP, but Thunder Strikes from the enemy still happened.

The average match time back when Wolverine + Thor + OBW was rampant is clearly much lower than it is now (two of the characters had way more firepower). Even back then, it's not unusual to take a Thunder Strike which is 12 in yellow. But, this also explains why it is not common. The AI has no preference on any color. If you're fighting Wolverine + Thor + OBW, only yellow and purple would noticeably mess you up, and because the AI doesn't care about the colors, the chance of it doing that is 2/7 (it treats enviornmental as a perfectly viable color). In the current game, the same team is down to 1/7 as there is no other outright devastating ability in the 12 AP range for a commonly seen 2* (Call the Storm requires 14). Just like back then you didn't really denied the opposing Thor from a Thunder Strike (he just chose to not go for yellow), you never denied OBW from her purple either. The AI just chose to not go for purple, and it'll do that 6 out of 7 times because it doesn't care about one color over another.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

The average match time back when Wolverine + Thor + OBW was rampant is clearly much lower than it is now (two of the characters had way more firepower). Even back then, it's not unusual to take a Thunder Strike which is 12 in yellow. But, this also explains why it is not common. The AI has no preference on any color. If you're fighting Wolverine + Thor + OBW, only yellow and purple would noticeably mess you up, and because the AI doesn't care about the colors, the chance of it doing that is 2/7 (it treats enviornmental as a perfectly viable color). In the current game, the same team is down to 1/7 as there is no other outright devastating ability in the 12 AP range for a commonly seen 2* (Call the Storm requires 14). Just like back then you didn't really denied the opposing Thor from a Thunder Strike (he just chose to not go for yellow), you never denied OBW from her purple either. The AI just chose to not go for purple, and it'll do that 6 out of 7 times because it doesn't care about one color over another.

I'm not sure the AI is unbiased with color picks. It looks preferring enviro and if bulls or moonie is in play I see it going for the purple way more often than not. Also green looks preferred with daken in play. And black with venom.

Phaserhawk

Okay, I purposefully kept track during my games on if I would want a 5/x/x OBW, or a 3/5/5.

In the majority of cases I wanted my 3/5/5, because...they only had OBW for purple and for that reason, because i targeted her first and because of the speed of my OBW, she never gets it off, period, done. Now, in some of these PvE especially with the regenerator Hammer guys, wow, did at that time I wished I had a 5/4/4 or 5/3/5. In those cases, when you have a goon and Moonstone, and Ragnarok, having that 5 in AR is better I will admit. However we aren't always in PvE tourney's, and again in those PvP sure the priorty of tiles etc. is random, but there are only 3 characters that use purple anyone is scared of, OBW, BWGS, and C. Mags. Of those 3 current threats your verison of OBW can really effect the outcome.

OBW vs. OBW--you want the 3/5/5 build, you want to ramp up your other guys, put her down and not worry about her

OBW vs. BSGW -- This is where I would prefer the 5/3/5 build if the AI ever gets smarter, BSGW is slow enough but beefy enough you are not going to take her down as quickly, thus you need to watch out for her purple as a smart AI would ramp that into green to get her sniper rifle going, however you still can argue 3/5/5 since you will just quickly deny them all their green thus negating her purple

OBW vs. C. Mags--This is a not so fun battle, lets assume the worst case scenario and he is a 5/5/3 C. Mags, his blue is 5AP, his red is 2AP and Purple is 10AP. Well, once his purple goes off whoever is standing in is dead, this is where OBW 5/3/5 can stay atop of this, since while both builds steal purple on matches, she will keep that MT from going off, that being said C. Mags just doesn't have that to worry you have Magnetic Field, and Magnetized projectile to worry about, this is where a 3/5/5 build is more efficient.

Assuming they always have 2-3 purple, you need 2 purple matches to go off and steal the blue and red, even if you go off with AR at lvl 5, assume you have 12 when you cast, costs 11, you get 4 back, you have 5, even with steal it will take you 2 matches to have it go off again, in theory you would have 2 left over from the 13, get 4 back 6, now it still takes 2 matches with steal to have it go again. That's where AR3, is so good, because it doesn't steal purple, you will always have purple to steal on matches assuming the tiles are up as OBW, there in lies the kicker, OBW must be able to make matches on purple in order for the 3/5/5 to be the better build. If you pair her with anyone whose purple is higher normally or with a buff, the 3/5/5 is a very **** build compared to 5/3/5 or 5/5/3.

Summary. Most PvE with purple generators and purple users 5/3/5 or 5/5/3 is a better build.

PvP 3/5/5 is the better build as you have very few purple characters that are an issue to deal with and fast denial is better than mass denial.

Rule of thumb. PvP 3/5/5 > 5/3/5 > 5/5/3 in PvE 5/3/5 > 3/5/5 > 5/5/3

2nd Rule, 5/3/5 is the superior build when 3/5/5 OBW does not have her symbol on purple tiles, at that point she is very ineffective and 5/3/5 is better because a 3/5/5 OBW relies on her black passive purple steal to be so effective, where as 5/3/5 it's just a bonus

OBW w/stealing purple and only making 3 tile purple matches, and assuming they always have at least 4 of every color all the time (they have a rainbow generator)

3/5/5 can go off as early as fast as every 2 turns and steal 3 of every color so....
Turn 2: 3R, 3B, 3G, 3Y, 3Bl
Turn 4: 6R, 6B, 6G, 6Y, 6Bl
Turn 6: 9R, 9B, 9G, 9Y, 9Bl
Turn 8: 12R, 12B, 12G, 12Y, 12Bl
Turn 10:15R, 15B, 15G, 15Y, 15Bl
Turn 12: 18R, 18B, 18G, 18Y, 18Bl
Turn 14: 21R, 21B, 21G, 21Y, 21Bl
Turn 16: 24R, 24B, 24G, 24Y, 24Bl

5/3/5 can go off as fast as the 3rd turn, then varies. assuming the same as above
Turn 3: 4P, 4R, 4B, 4G, 4Y, 4Bl
Turn 5: 8P, 8R, 8B, 8G, 8Y, 8Bl
Turn 7: 12P, 12R, 12B, 12G, 12Y, 12Bl
Turn 8: 16P, 16R, 16B, 16G, 16Y, 16Bl
Turn 11:20P, 20R, 20B, 20G, 20Y, 20Bl
Turn 13:24P, 24R, 24B, 24G, 24Y, 24Bl
Turn 15:30P, 30R, 30B, 30G, 30Y, 30Bl
Turn 16:34P, 34R, 34B, 34G, 34Y, 34Bl

As you can see, while this is a perfect scenario AR at lvl 3 only gets outpaced around the third casting of both a lvl5 AR and a lvl 3, are you going to be casting this more than 3 times in a match? Now I can cast AR at lvl 3 3 times before lvl 5 AR can, once you cast Lvl 5 AR 3 times and assuming max steal everytime, does it begin to outstrip AR at lvl 3, yes those are ideal numbers, but I feel less than ideal numbers favor 3/5/5 more, anyway. Hopefully this is the nail, multipe build are viable in multiple formats

Phaserhawk

Okay, I purposefully kept track during my games on if I would want a 5/x/x OBW, or a 3/5/5.

In the majority of cases I wanted my 3/5/5, because...they only had OBW for purple and for that reason, because i targeted her first and because of the speed of my OBW, she never gets it off, period, done. Now, in some of these PvE especially with the regenerator Hammer guys, wow, did at that time I wished I had a 5/4/4 or 5/3/5. In those cases, when you have a goon and Moonstone, and Ragnarok, having that 5 in AR is better I will admit. However we aren't always in PvE tourney's, and again in those PvP sure the priorty of tiles etc. is random, but there are only 3 characters that use purple anyone is scared of, OBW, BWGS, and C. Mags. Of those 3 current threats your verison of OBW can really effect the outcome.

OBW vs. OBW--you want the 3/5/5 build, you want to ramp up your other guys, put her down and not worry about her

OBW vs. BSGW -- This is where I would prefer the 5/3/5 build if the AI ever gets smarter, BSGW is slow enough but beefy enough you are not going to take her down as quickly, thus you need to watch out for her purple as a smart AI would ramp that into green to get her sniper rifle going, however you still can argue 3/5/5 since you will just quickly deny them all their green thus negating her purple

OBW vs. C. Mags--This is a not so fun battle, lets assume the worst case scenario and he is a 5/5/3 C. Mags, his blue is 5AP, his red is 2AP and Purple is 10AP. Well, once his purple goes off whoever is standing in is dead, this is where OBW 5/3/5 can stay atop of this, since while both builds steal purple on matches, she will keep that MT from going off, that being said C. Mags just doesn't have that to worry you have Magnetic Field, and Magnetized projectile to worry about, this is where a 3/5/5 build is more efficient.

Assuming they always have 2-3 purple, you need 2 purple matches to go off and steal the blue and red, even if you go off with AR at lvl 5, assume you have 12 when you cast, costs 11, you get 4 back, you have 5, even with steal it will take you 2 matches to have it go off again, in theory you would have 2 left over from the 13, get 4 back 6, now it still takes 2 matches with steal to have it go again. That's where AR3, is so good, because it doesn't steal purple, you will always have purple to steal on matches assuming the tiles are up as OBW, there in lies the kicker, OBW must be able to make matches on purple in order for the 3/5/5 to be the better build. If you pair her with anyone whose purple is higher normally or with a buff, the 3/5/5 is a very **** build compared to 5/3/5 or 5/5/3.

Summary. Most PvE with purple generators and purple users 5/3/5 or 5/5/3 is a better build.

PvP 3/5/5 is the better build as you have very few purple characters that are an issue to deal with and fast denial is better than mass denial.

Rule of thumb. PvP 3/5/5 > 5/3/5 > 5/5/3 in PvE 5/3/5 > 3/5/5 > 5/5/3

2nd Rule, 5/3/5 is the superior build when 3/5/5 OBW does not have her symbol on purple tiles, at that point she is very ineffective and 5/3/5 is better because a 3/5/5 OBW relies on her black passive purple steal to be so effective, where as 5/3/5 it's just a bonus

OBW w/stealing purple and only making 3 tile purple matches, and assuming they always have at least 4 of every color all the time (they have a rainbow generator)

3/5/5 can go off as early as fast as every 2 turns and steal 3 of every color so....
Turn 2: 3R, 3B, 3G, 3Y, 3Bl
Turn 4: 6R, 6B, 6G, 6Y, 6Bl
Turn 6: 9R, 9B, 9G, 9Y, 9Bl
Turn 8: 12R, 12B, 12G, 12Y, 12Bl
Turn 10:15R, 15B, 15G, 15Y, 15Bl
Turn 12: 18R, 18B, 18G, 18Y, 18Bl
Turn 14: 21R, 21B, 21G, 21Y, 21Bl
Turn 16: 24R, 24B, 24G, 24Y, 24Bl

5/3/5 can go off as fast as the 3rd turn, then varies. assuming the same as above
Turn 3: 4P, 4R, 4B, 4G, 4Y, 4Bl
Turn 5: 8P, 8R, 8B, 8G, 8Y, 8Bl
Turn 7: 12P, 12R, 12B, 12G, 12Y, 12Bl
Turn 8: 16P, 16R, 16B, 16G, 16Y, 16Bl
Turn 11:20P, 20R, 20B, 20G, 20Y, 20Bl
Turn 13:24P, 24R, 24B, 24G, 24Y, 24Bl
Turn 15:30P, 30R, 30B, 30G, 30Y, 30Bl
Turn 16:34P, 34R, 34B, 34G, 34Y, 34Bl

As you can see, while this is a perfect scenario AR at lvl 3 only gets outpaced around the third casting of both a lvl5 AR and a lvl 3, are you going to be casting this more than 3 times in a match? Now I can cast AR at lvl 3 3 times before lvl 5 AR can, once you cast Lvl 5 AR 3 times and assuming max steal everytime, does it begin to outstrip AR at lvl 3, yes those are ideal numbers, but I feel less than ideal numbers favor 3/5/5 more, anyway. Hopefully this is the nail, multipe build are viable in multiple formats

Unknown

Your tables just assume the opponent has full stores of AP every turn rather than collect it the usual way?

Unknown

If OBW is on your team but not the one making blue/purple matches, then she probably shouldn't be on your team

Unknown

muffinmonger wrote:

If OBW is on your team but not the one making blue/purple matches, then she probably shouldn't be on your team

So you say Mags+OBW+(Patch/Punisher) is no good team?

Mags takes over blue quite soon, unless OBW is buffed like in Hulk. And she keeps the purple only due to Mags tiles are bugged. And Punisher takes over black. I'd be happy if had the control over who processes the tiles, but it's not there.

Unknown

It's an okay team. She still gets purple and her heal will generally still always be available since Mag's is a free cast.

But I agree with the general sentiment as someone who has Spidey. I've been reluctant to invest in her/Spidey because Spidey takes blue/purple.

OzarkBoatswain

Best ** character for me right now, BUT... once I get some *** characters leveled past her I suspect they will eat into her black ability, matching the tiles instead of OBW. High tier characters Spider-man, C. Mags and Black Panther all share two of her colors. She's still good with Patch however. Might be best at 5/5/3 in the very high-level game.