**** Wolverine (X-Force) **** [PRE 2015-04]

Unknown

They need to really rethink about the systematic issues that makes certain abilities/colors/characters overpowered regardless of the underlying balance. For example anyone with true healing is always going to be overpowered for PvE if they're remotely competitive against everyone else. Even double regen makes a very significant difference in PvE, and X Force has both. Certain color lineups are just hard to counter and certain lineups are just unplayable due to the requirement of one character have to be a featured character roughly 90% of the time in PvP. Surgical Strike wouldn't be so bad if not every 4* has a strongest color in something relatively dangerous (Thor red, X Force + Devil Dino green, IW + Nick Fury yellow). X Force is significantly more powerful than anyone for straight up damage even in a completely freeform environment, but he wouldn't need as significant a nerf if freeform events are the norm in PvP. Likewise Nick Fury is never going to be quite as good as X Force, but if Nick Fury doesn't require a health pack every fight he'd at least be a reasonable alternative. Right now Nick Fury takes about 4K damage on average easily against a strong PvE team, and you can't start next fight with 5K against strong PvE teams so that's 1 health pack. X Force will just use Recovery at the end of fight or go to prologue to heal, and he'd take less damage to begin with due to stronger offense so you might not even need to heal in the first place.

Unknown

Phaserhawk wrote:

Now is X-Force vastly overpowered or is the rest of field that weak? I will say that X-Force is a bit on the strong side but with two tweaks he would become fair and 1.) is to halve the damage of Surgical Strike. Because of the ability to completely obliterate AP on the other team while you gaining some doesn't really need a whole lot of damage in addition to what it does. Recovery is fair, no one complains about that as for X-Force, damage wise it's not out of line as Human Torch has a better skill at 8 AP than X-Force but the resulting cascades are what is making this insane, I say maybe just go back to level 3 destruction which is just the 5x5 x shape and you have him fairly balanced

This would be a terrible idea. The crying about SS damage and AP gain is unfounded, it is NOT that big a deal. 11 Black means a 4 turn ability means a game changing ability. It also means you can kill him before he gets it off on defense, and on offense you shouldn't really care. Anything with a cost of 10+ should have significant impact on the game to be playable. Is he good? Yes. Is he game breaking? No. He's balanced to what a 4* character should be.

If you cut SS damage in half you would have to move the AP gain up to 2 covers or something to compensate. If anything, reduce the damage SLIGHTLY, by the amount the 5th cover grants, and just make that 5th cover "Gains AP now". Both his Green and Yellow skills are fine. Someone has to be the best at what they do, it may as well be Wolverine.

I think the biggest complaint about X-Force is in terms of Availability. Anyone playing the game for significant time periods probably had a full one before the change. Anyone joining in now has to climb the transition ladder while facing off against them. It's not entirely fair a 2* team has to face even a level 130 XF, but that's the game we have right now. Putting a new character on top of the heap won't change that.

Unknown

Lerysh wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

Now is X-Force vastly overpowered or is the rest of field that weak? I will say that X-Force is a bit on the strong side but with two tweaks he would become fair and 1.) is to halve the damage of Surgical Strike. Because of the ability to completely obliterate AP on the other team while you gaining some doesn't really need a whole lot of damage in addition to what it does. Recovery is fair, no one complains about that as for X-Force, damage wise it's not out of line as Human Torch has a better skill at 8 AP than X-Force but the resulting cascades are what is making this insane, I say maybe just go back to level 3 destruction which is just the 5x5 x shape and you have him fairly balanced

This would be a terrible idea. The crying about SS damage and AP gain is unfounded, it is NOT that big a deal. 11 Black means a 4 turn ability means a game changing ability. It also means you can kill him before he gets it off on defense, and on offense you shouldn't really care. Anything with a cost of 10+ should have significant impact on the game to be playable. Is he good? Yes. Is he game breaking? No. He's balanced to what a 4* character should be.

If you cut SS damage in half you would have to move the AP gain up to 2 covers or something to compensate. If anything, reduce the damage SLIGHTLY, by the amount the 5th cover grants, and just make that 5th cover "Gains AP now". Both his Green and Yellow skills are fine. Someone has to be the best at what they do, it may as well be Wolverine.

I think the biggest complaint about X-Force is in terms of Availability. Anyone playing the game for significant time periods probably had a full one before the change. Anyone joining in now has to climb the transition ladder while facing off against them. It's not entirely fair a 2* team has to face even a level 130 XF, but that's the game we have right now. Putting a new character on top of the heap won't change that.

In what imaginary world are you able to reliably kill X Force without AP+3 all boosts before he gets moves off without your own X Force? He has the 4th highest HP, below Devil Dino, Thor (4*), and Hulk. He has pretty much the best 4 match move damaging move in the game, and he synergizes well with The Hood, so no AP trickery is usually possible against X Force. So you want to use a strong 3 match move to knock him out? Guess what, he also has the best damaging 3 match move in the game too! So if this was possible then nobody besides Thor would even be able to get any moves off against your team because everyone else either has less HP or are not remotely viable in PvP so you'd never take any significant damage against any team that doesn't include Thor!

The only somewhat weakness of X Force is if you're able to get him to match yellow while ignoring him so he wastes his AP on Recovery doing nothing. That'd mean leaving X Force alone for most of the fight (otherwise he will heal a significant part of whatever damage you did to him), which means you're running something that has a burst damage of about 10K on demand. That, of course, is generally only possible when you have your own X Force.

Unknown

Ok, first, if you aren't bringing at least +3 AP to 2 colors, you aren't taking PvP seriously. You don't need rainbow AP boosts, but you do need some boosts. Playing without them is artificially handicapping yourself.

Second: In the Psylocke event, Patch, Psy, Daken, boost +3 / , Match green, match green, Match Black, use Berserker Rage, use Psy Katana, match the purple , watch X-Force die, throw in Chemical Rage if needed to add green and subtract health.

If he does bring Hood, he's balanced his 4th highest HP in the game with a tenny weeny 5100 HP character. Murder The Hood then get down to business. In this case, yes, XF gets some turns to build up, but I still take and win these matches mostly without getting hit with

Third: AP Denial isn't that hard a game to play. Yes, sometimes you will take a to the face, but most times you can do 10,000 damage with any set of characters before XF gets 8 green or 11 black on defense. Especially if you are taking the green to do damage with and keep an eye on the black. That's minimum 4 turns, average AI play more like 8 or 9 turns to get the AP needed. I've done it plenty of times. It's the same complaint/theory/strategy surrounding Thor. You don't let Thor take Yellow or Green or you will have a bad day. You don't let XF take Green or Black or you will have a bad day. Avoid bad days.

Sometimes I wonder, Phantron, if you actually play this game or if you just write forum posts about how broken you perceive it to be.

Unknown

Or you can use Berserker Rage, enemy drops a good cascade on you, and then you die.

Why do people talk about how one time they were able to beat X Force armed with some boosts and a pretty good board. Even if the game worked like that, X Force is still the 4th highest HP character in the game, and the only competitive character with more HP was available this week. I can't even call this theroycraft. It's more like you imagined some hypothetical sequence of events because if you tried that while fighting X Force continously you'll quickly realize reality kicks in and beats you up. If this stuff actually worked we'd see complete parity in PvP because after all, until this week there wasn't even a character you can run that had more HP than X Force that was actually viable offensively in PvP.

People didn't settle on the top teams because there was a conspiracy to increase X Force sales. You did not suddenly stumble on a poor man's way of defeating X Force reliably. Of course you can beat X Force some of the time, but he's not at the top of the PvP due to an accident.

Unknown

It's not hypothetical. It's used in practice, by me, to get 1400 points and more X-Force covers that I need in PvP against 270 Thor 270 X-Force teams.

That he has the 4th highest HP isn't in question. That he is an offensive god of PvP isn't in question. I even said someone has to be on top, it might as well be Wolverine. I am just asserting that HE IS BEATABLE. I can, and have, and will, continue to beat him silly because I have to.

The assertion that 6800 HP characters aren't viable in PvP is flawed. The assertion that only XF is viable in PvP is also flawed.

GrumpySmurf1002

Phantron wrote:

People didn't settle on the top teams because there was a conspiracy to increase X Force sales. You did not suddenly stumble on a poor man's way of defeating X Force reliably. Of course you can beat X Force some of the time, but he's not at the top of the PvP due to an accident.

He's not at the top of PvP for his defensive prowess. The top of PvP is dictated by one thing: Speed.

XForce was just as deadly before the Sentry nerf, but Sentry was faster. Thus Sentry was at the top of PvP. With Sentry gone, XForce is fastest. That's why Hood is valuable. Not because he's some massively overpowered being. He speeds things up (or slows them down on defense).

If Thorina ends up faster than XForce, then she'll be at the top. Of course everyone who has a usable Thorina has a usable XForce, so you'll probably see both, but I digress.

Even if you (unnecessarily) nerf XForce, another character will pop up as the fastest. Then we'll call to nerf them because all the high end players will immediately gravitate to the next fastest and they'll dominate play. And so on, and so on, and so on....

At least this time it's a 4* character, not inexplicably high powered 3*s.

Unknown

Any opinions on when the iso investment isnt justified by the reward? The iso per level keeps going up but im not seeing an equivalent increase in strength.

Unknown

221 puts his match 3 damage at the level of a 3*, making it possible for XF to tank or to be tanked for. Much higher and he will always have all the / / .

250 I've seen as an iso saver level up. Powers almost full strength, but last 20 levels cost quite a bit. Basically they are for the health only.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

Lerysh wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

Now is X-Force vastly overpowered or is the rest of field that weak? I will say that X-Force is a bit on the strong side but with two tweaks he would become fair and 1.) is to halve the damage of Surgical Strike. Because of the ability to completely obliterate AP on the other team while you gaining some doesn't really need a whole lot of damage in addition to what it does. Recovery is fair, no one complains about that as for X-Force, damage wise it's not out of line as Human Torch has a better skill at 8 AP than X-Force but the resulting cascades are what is making this insane, I say maybe just go back to level 3 destruction which is just the 5x5 x shape and you have him fairly balanced

This would be a terrible idea. The crying about SS damage and AP gain is unfounded, it is NOT that big a deal. 11 Black means a 4 turn ability means a game changing ability. It also means you can kill him before he gets it off on defense, and on offense you shouldn't really care. Anything with a cost of 10+ should have significant impact on the game to be playable. Is he good? Yes. Is he game breaking? No. He's balanced to what a 4* character should be.

If you cut SS damage in half you would have to move the AP gain up to 2 covers or something to compensate. If anything, reduce the damage SLIGHTLY, by the amount the 5th cover grants, and just make that 5th cover "Gains AP now". Both his Green and Yellow skills are fine. Someone has to be the best at what they do, it may as well be Wolverine.

I think the biggest complaint about X-Force is in terms of Availability. Anyone playing the game for significant time periods probably had a full one before the change. Anyone joining in now has to climb the transition ladder while facing off against them. It's not entirely fair a 2* team has to face even a level 130 XF, but that's the game we have right now. Putting a new character on top of the heap won't change that.

In what imaginary world are you able to reliably kill X Force without AP+3 all boosts before he gets moves off without your own X Force? He has the 4th highest HP, below Devil Dino, Thor (4*), and Hulk. He has pretty much the best 4 match move damaging move in the game, and he synergizes well with The Hood, so no AP trickery is usually possible against X Force. So you want to use a strong 3 match move to knock him out? Guess what, he also has the best damaging 3 match move in the game too! So if this was possible then nobody besides Thor would even be able to get any moves off against your team because everyone else either has less HP or are not remotely viable in PvP so you'd never take any significant damage against any team that doesn't include Thor!

The only somewhat weakness of X Force is if you're able to get him to match yellow while ignoring him so he wastes his AP on Recovery doing nothing. That'd mean leaving X Force alone for most of the fight (otherwise he will heal a significant part of whatever damage you did to him), which means you're running something that has a burst damage of about 10K on demand. That, of course, is generally only possible when you have your own X Force.

What in the world

How do you reliably beat X-Force without boosts? Deny black. That's it. Yes, his green isn't something you want to happen to you, but you can usually deny green too (and you usually do it to build your own greens without even "trying") and it's pretty rare that his green means game over like his black often does.

I swear some of you guys use boosts as such a crutch that you have no concept of what the game is like without them (does "taking pvp seriously" mean going for 1st place every single time? Because I have a bizarre "don't use items" compulsion and I reach 1300 without using any boosts at all whenever I feel like putting in the effort)

Unknown

That may be so, but you are still taking a disadvantage. Especially if you are just anti-item in general and not only against buying them. You get free ones.

Unknown

Lerysh wrote:

That may be so, but you are still taking a disadvantage. Especially if you are just anti-item in general and not only against buying them. You get free ones.

I know. I know.

I end every RPG with a completely full inventory of potions despite how much smoother the game would have gone if I used them. It's a sickness.

(Even worse is that I went through the entire prologue and my first half dozen PVEs without ever using a single health pack because I didn't know they regenerated. Man, I had "infinite playtime" for like a month once I found out you got free ones if you were below 5)

dr tinykittylove

Phantron wrote:

Or you can use Berserker Rage, enemy drops a good cascade on you, and then you die.

Why do people talk about how one time they were able to beat X Force armed with some boosts and a pretty good board. Even if the game worked like that, X Force is still the 4th highest HP character in the game, and the only competitive character with more HP was available this week. I can't even call this theroycraft. It's more like you imagined some hypothetical sequence of events because if you tried that while fighting X Force continously you'll quickly realize reality kicks in and beats you up. If this stuff actually worked we'd see complete parity in PvP because after all, until this week there wasn't even a character you can run that had more HP than X Force that was actually viable offensively in PvP.

People didn't settle on the top teams because there was a conspiracy to increase X Force sales. You did not suddenly stumble on a poor man's way of defeating X Force reliably. Of course you can beat X Force some of the time, but he's not at the top of the PvP due to an accident.

I sent out my xforce yesterday as a teamup. I've been beating maxed xforces in shield sim all day without xforce, no boosts, mostly no hood and only occasional teamups. I'm not winning due to an accident either.

I use him a lot because he does damage fast and cascades are fun, that's all.

Cousin Simpson

I have an unleveled XFW at 2/1/4 -- is it worth dumping 70K ISO into him for a 155 PVP scarecrow?

simonsez

Cousin Simpson wrote:

I have an unleveled XFW at 2/1/4 -- is it worth dumping 70K ISO into him for a 155 PVP scarecrow?

There's no such thing as a scarecrow anymore. I mean hell, we just got through fighting lv405 Thorinas...

GrumpySmurf1002

Cousin Simpson wrote:

I have an unleveled XFW at 2/1/4 -- is it worth dumping 70K ISO into him for a 155 PVP scarecrow?

Nope, and it will probably make your life considerably worse. 155 isn't really a scare to begin with, and if anyone checks and sees the 2/1/4 build, you'll get hit repeatedly. Depending on how the MMR is specifically geared, it should also beef your average opponents.

Unknown

anyone know if a 4/4/3 lvl 94 xforce is worth sinking Iso into? I plan to keep my max level at under lvl 166

MarcusGraves

silverrex wrote:

anyone know if a 4/4/3 lvl 94 xforce is worth sinking Iso into? I plan to keep my max level at under lvl 166

until you have either his green or black maxed out, not really.

Unknown

MarcusGraves wrote:

silverrex wrote:

anyone know if a 4/4/3 lvl 94 xforce is worth sinking Iso into? I plan to keep my max level at under lvl 166

until you have either his green or black maxed out, not really.

so having 1 of green or black max out would be the bare minimum? if you had a choice, which one would you max first?

avs962

silverrex wrote:

MarcusGraves wrote:

silverrex wrote:

anyone know if a 4/4/3 lvl 94 xforce is worth sinking Iso into? I plan to keep my max level at under lvl 166

until you have either his green or black maxed out, not really.

so having 1 of green or black max out would be the bare minimum? if you had a choice, which one would you max first?

I would say black. That fifth cover just does so much for you (almost double damage per tile AND ap generation).

That being said, you can't go wrong with a fifth green, which severely increased lethality of a quick strike.

Just the opinion of a guy who has a lvl 70, 2/2/3 X-Force though, so take from it what you will.