From Undergrowth Champion to Runaway Carriage[Merged Topic]

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  • Pqmtg-
    Pqmtg- Posts: 282
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    andrewvanmarle wrote:
    Yes and they are also the solution:

    Use them on your own creatures and they block or bypass RC

    Problem solved.


    Not really. Creature removals are suddenly all 2 for 1, while his RC relentlessly smashes face.

    Magic is a game of resources. You can't just say card x solves your problem. You have to say card c solves the problem, and doesn't put you behind anyway.
  • andrewvanmarle
    andrewvanmarle Posts: 976 Critical Contributor
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    Blockers are always a trade off, same here as in paper magic. And the opponent needs a second card too so its a 2 for 2

    My point is that RC is not an unsolvable problem.
  • Pqmtg-
    Pqmtg- Posts: 282
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    andrewvanmarle wrote:
    Blockers are always a trade off, same here as in paper magic. And the opponent needs a second card too so its a 2 for 2

    My point is that RC is not an unsolvable problem.


    You forgot that the RC can be 10 for 1 and it wouldn't matter if you can't kill it. And that to buy time to set up that combo, a third of that deck is creature removal, so your unblockable creature becomes toast really quickly.
  • GrizzoMtGPQ
    GrizzoMtGPQ Posts: 776 Critical Contributor
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    Since when exactly does Prevent Damage not stop Scour From Existence? Had that happen to me today and was shocked that my creature died.
  • shteev
    shteev Posts: 2,031 Chairperson of the Boards
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    An answer that doesn't deal with a flying RC is not a good answer. It's like saying that Demon's Grasp was a good answer to UC.
  • shteev
    shteev Posts: 2,031 Chairperson of the Boards
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    GrizzoMtGPQ wrote:
    Since when exactly does Prevent Damage not stop Scour From Existence? Had that happen to me today and was shocked that my creature died.

    It seems like Prevent Damage has just stopped working on effects that destroy creature outright instead of killing them with damage, as of the last update.
  • blacklotus
    blacklotus Posts: 589 Critical Contributor
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    jimilinho_ wrote:
    shteev wrote:
    I've just lost a game to Drowner of Hope and Crush of Tentacles where I died with a Skyraker Giant in my hand. Nothing like a fair game, is there?

    I think that was the same deck I lost one of my games too as well. It also had exert influence in so wasn't much fun icon_lol.gif

    that same deck also let me win with 1 hp left when it decided to tentacle crush it's own hex proofed Sphinx, mirrored drowner of hope and scions for a 16/16 octopus which I promptly gripped.

    so all is good icon_e_smile.gif
  • blacklotus
    blacklotus Posts: 589 Critical Contributor
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    Pqmtg- wrote:
    andrewvanmarle wrote:
    Shteev: off the top of my head, rogue's passage, skeleton key sacred censer and haunted cloak all work againt RC, you can add those to any deck.


    These are the very cards that make RC a problem.

    what's good for the goose is good for the gander? icon_e_smile.gif
  • Pqmtg-
    Pqmtg- Posts: 282
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    blacklotus wrote:
    Pqmtg- wrote:
    andrewvanmarle wrote:
    Shteev: off the top of my head, rogue's passage, skeleton key sacred censer and haunted cloak all work againt RC, you can add those to any deck.


    These are the very cards that make RC a problem.

    what's good for the goose is good for the gander? icon_e_smile.gif


    Except those cards just make your creatures not insta-die to RC. It makes RC nigh unkillable.

    They are not comparable situations.
  • alextfish
    alextfish Posts: 192
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    shteev wrote:
    GrizzoMtGPQ wrote:
    Since when exactly does Prevent Damage not stop Scour From Existence? Had that happen to me today and was shocked that my creature died.

    It seems like Prevent Damage has just stopped working on effects that destroy creature outright instead of killing them with damage, as of the last update.
    Yeah, there's a separate thread about that over here: https://d3go.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=49450
  • alextfish
    alextfish Posts: 192
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    HomeRn wrote:
    shteev wrote:
    Hang on, I've just thought of something.

    I've had Berserkers (like Piblin Piledriver) attack my Thing in the Ice, even tho Thing in the Ice specifically syas it can't block.

    Does that mean that being attacked by a Berserker doesn't count as blocking? Or is Thing in the Ice just bugged?



    N.B: Piblin Piledriver was obviously supposed to be Goblin Piledriver, but it was such a good typo that I left it.
    Berserkers can target creatures that can't block - that's because Berserkers technically aren't being "blocked" by said creature; berserkers prioritize targeting creatures before the enemy PW. Thing in the Ice can be a REALLY powerful anti-berserker tool (providing said berserker isn't a spirit) in this case as if it's health drops enough without being destroyed, you get a free mass-bounce and a big body that can attack immediately on your turn!
    While what you say about berserkers is definitely true, it's also true that a berserker getting into combat with another creature counts as "becoming blocked". (Call of the Full Moon can grant berserker to Prickleboar, which then proceeds to gain first strike when it attacks your random dude. It's a fun combo I used to play in Koth.) So I probably wouldn't expect Thing in the Ice to be able to get into combat with a berserker because that definitely is "blocking" as far as the game is concerned.
  • Pqmtg-
    Pqmtg- Posts: 282
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    alextfish wrote:
    HomeRn wrote:
    shteev wrote:
    Hang on, I've just thought of something.

    I've had Berserkers (like Piblin Piledriver) attack my Thing in the Ice, even tho Thing in the Ice specifically syas it can't block.

    Does that mean that being attacked by a Berserker doesn't count as blocking? Or is Thing in the Ice just bugged?



    N.B: Piblin Piledriver was obviously supposed to be Goblin Piledriver, but it was such a good typo that I left it.
    Berserkers can target creatures that can't block - that's because Berserkers technically aren't being "blocked" by said creature; berserkers prioritize targeting creatures before the enemy PW. Thing in the Ice can be a REALLY powerful anti-berserker tool (providing said berserker isn't a spirit) in this case as if it's health drops enough without being destroyed, you get a free mass-bounce and a big body that can attack immediately on your turn!
    While what you say about berserkers is definitely true, it's also true that a berserker getting into combat with another creature counts as "becoming blocked". (Call of the Full Moon can grant berserker to Prickleboar, which then proceeds to gain first strike when it attacks your random dude. It's a fun combo I used to play in Koth.) So I probably wouldn't expect Thing in the Ice to be able to get into combat with a berserker because that definitely is "blocking" as far as the game is concerned.


    Sadly, berserkers do currently rush into it for a teamwipe.
  • andrewvanmarle
    andrewvanmarle Posts: 976 Critical Contributor
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    And after that wipe, the carriage is considered blocked and can be killed. tadaaaah
  • Zelandoni
    Zelandoni Posts: 25
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    So, every deck I've played so far in today's event, in Platinum, has had the Runaway Carriage/Rogue's Passage or other unlockable support combo. I mean, I guess you have succeeded in shaking up the meta, in that the new meta is 5+ unstoppable damage per turn, usually turning into an indestructable blocker thanks to Cloak.
  • Hibernum_JC
    Hibernum_JC Posts: 318 Mover and Shaker
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    Reading through a lot of posts in this thread and from my own internal testing, it is apparent that Runaway Carriage is indeed a bit overtuned. I am looking into solutions to change the card so that it remains useful but does not become an unstoppable force. I have several venues I am exploring, so I'll keep you posted.
  • madwren
    madwren Posts: 2,237 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Hibernum_JC wrote:
    Reading through a lot of posts in this thread and from my own internal testing, it is apparent that Runaway Carriage is indeed a bit overtuned. I am looking into solutions to change the card so that it remains useful but does not become an unstoppable force. I have several venues I am exploring, so I'll keep you posted.

    Easy fix:

    "Runaway Carriage cannot block."
  • Plastic
    Plastic Posts: 762 Critical Contributor
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    madwren wrote:
    Hibernum_JC wrote:
    Reading through a lot of posts in this thread and from my own internal testing, it is apparent that Runaway Carriage is indeed a bit overtuned. I am looking into solutions to change the card so that it remains useful but does not become an unstoppable force. I have several venues I am exploring, so I'll keep you posted.

    Easy fix:

    "Runaway Carriage cannot block."

    That could work. Might get funky vs berserkers though.

    Why not give it prevent damage for 1-2 turns and then it falls off?

    Side note: prevent damage needs an icon or animation.
  • Hibernum_JC
    Hibernum_JC Posts: 318 Mover and Shaker
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    madwren wrote:
    Hibernum_JC wrote:
    Reading through a lot of posts in this thread and from my own internal testing, it is apparent that Runaway Carriage is indeed a bit overtuned. I am looking into solutions to change the card so that it remains useful but does not become an unstoppable force. I have several venues I am exploring, so I'll keep you posted.

    Easy fix:

    "Runaway Carriage cannot block."

    It's not that easy, since a when a Berserker attacks a creature, that creature is not considered to be blocking.
    Plastic wrote:
    madwren wrote:
    Hibernum_JC wrote:
    Reading through a lot of posts in this thread and from my own internal testing, it is apparent that Runaway Carriage is indeed a bit overtuned. I am looking into solutions to change the card so that it remains useful but does not become an unstoppable force. I have several venues I am exploring, so I'll keep you posted.

    Easy fix:

    "Runaway Carriage cannot block."

    That could work. Might get funky vs berserkers though.

    Why not give it prevent damage for 1-2 turns and then it falls off?

    Side note: prevent damage needs an icon or animation.

    I cannot give buffs or debuffs for a specific amount of turns - only until the end of your turn, until the beginning of your next turn, or permanently. It's something we have been meaning to add, but it wasn't ever really necessary.

    I personally like the fact that to deal with it, you either need Defenders or AoE burn - it makes for a very resilient creature with a very low life total. That being said, the actual problem as some of you have pointed out is the fact that should it be given Defender, Reach or Vigilance, the other player's entire board will smash into it and die easily. The solution I'm currently leaning towards (I haven't had a chance to work on it yet, so this is all theorycrafting!) is having RC have Prevent Damage and Hexproof but only outside of combat turns. This means that you still need to deal with it, but the difference is Berserkers will give you another out for it. Berserkers are actually used more than Defenders (and I understand that part of that is due to the fact that Defenders are expensive) so it would give you guys another type of way to deal with it.

    Anything concerning buffs/debuffs/etc is not really a problem. Someone giving the creature Unblockable through Rogue's Passage is something you can deal with (through matching the Support away or using Support removal), giving it Flying is also something you can deal with (albeit a bit harder than Unblockable, strangely enough!) but regardless of these, all these combos are what Magic is about, and figuring out the best ways to combo cards together is a huge part of the game's experience. There's always a tradeoff with using combos - with a 10 card deck, every card counts, and slotting a card for part of a combo piece is taking away a slot for another card that could equally be as powerful.
  • madwren
    madwren Posts: 2,237 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Hibernum_JC wrote:
    madwren wrote:
    Hibernum_JC wrote:
    Reading through a lot of posts in this thread and from my own internal testing, it is apparent that Runaway Carriage is indeed a bit overtuned. I am looking into solutions to change the card so that it remains useful but does not become an unstoppable force. I have several venues I am exploring, so I'll keep you posted.

    Easy fix:

    "Runaway Carriage cannot block."

    It's not that easy, since a when a Berserker attacks a creature, that creature is not considered to be blocking.

    Right, but that's fair. You have the essence of the ability--it's hard to kill--and it still encourages use of Defenders or board sweepers, but it's no longer an invincible wall to anything but berserkers...which is fine. It makes it a useful card while not the board wiper that it can be so easily set up to be.
  • Irving
    Irving Posts: 95
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    Hibernum_JC wrote:
    I personally like the fact that to deal with it, you either need Defenders or AoE burn - it makes for a very resilient creature with a very low life total.

    Wait, does AoE burn actually work? I could have sworn I tried both Chandra's and Liliana's second abilities on it with no luck (it prevented the damage). If that were true I'd have a lot less problem with it (well, blue would still need a creature with defender/reach/vigilance that was at least OK, or mass bounce that was easier to acquire).

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