From Undergrowth Champion to Runaway Carriage[Merged Topic]

Hibernum_JC

Part of the reason why this card is in is to shift the meta a little bit by making you make more tech choices.

People in general do not play many Defenders, and there's plenty of good Defenders in the game. This dies to every single Defender in the game, Scions included.

We'll keep tracking it and if it becomes a real problem, we'll address it, but right now it is an above-average uncommon, which is good to have.

shteev

Hibernum_JC wrote:

Part of the reason why this card is in is to shift the meta a little bit by making you make more tech choices.

People in general do not play many Defenders, and there's plenty of good Defenders in the game. This dies to every single Defender in the game, Scions included.

We'll keep tracking it and if it becomes a real problem, we'll address it, but right now it is an above-average uncommon, which is good to have.

I'm genuinely impressed you took the decision to print a card that would shift the meta-game, to whatever degree, at uncommon.

Making it colorless might have been too bold a move, but this is the kind of experimentation on your part I really appreciate.

span_argoman

Hibernum_JC wrote:

Part of the reason why this card is in is to shift the meta a little bit by making you make more tech choices.

People in general do not play many Defenders, and there's plenty of good Defenders in the game. This dies to every single Defender in the game, Scions included.

We'll keep tracking it and if it becomes a real problem, we'll address it, but right now it is an above-average uncommon, which is good to have.

While the attempt to shift the meta is laudable, I would like to hear what the design team thought of the card's impact on Berserkers, namely that they are all going to take 5 damage (if RC Is unbuffed) the turn after Runaway Carriage is summoned even if you have a defender on the board due to summoning sickness. This makes Berserkers and cards like Odric a potential liability.

Did the team feel that Berserkers were too strong? Or did they feel that Red needed to be handicapped by having defenders which isn't exactly in line with the Red theme?

Red doesn't exactly have a good selection of defenders to choose from, it has:
Deathless Behemoth
Resolute Blademaster
Epitaph Golem
Harvest Hand
Blight Herder (only if you can Process 2)
Hulking Devil
Skyraker Giant
Guardian Automaton
Guardians of Meletis
Ondu Champion
Wild-Field Scarecrow
True-Faith Censer
Haunted Cloak

Not exactly a great list save Resolute Blademaster, Blight Herder (if you have Ingest), Skyraker Giant, Harvest Hand and True-Faith Censer. And Resolute Blademaster costs almost double of Runaway Carriage but will also die in the exchange.

I hope we are able to have some insight into this decision, thanks!

*edit*
Forgot Haunted Cloak

Coconut99

What I'm surprised I didn't see get mentioned here...what about pairing this with Rogue's Passage?

At that point, screw Defenders. You're down to target-all cards and that's it.

Morphis

To me the card still make no sense.

Shaking the meta can be done through other means.

Also to be honest we do not even know which direction the meta could take just cause of all other SoI cards.

The card designs is overall interesting.
It is just too easy to abuse.

also shaking the meta...
How?
Forcing people to play defenders just because of this card?

You could give an actual reason to play some defenders implementing walls(cannot attack) with premium defensive stats.

So far there is only one defender that cannot attack in the game and it is totally worthless(being a common that's normal).

shteev

There are so many new board sweeps around, tho. Black's always had Languish, White has a new board sweep in Descend upon the Sinners, Blue has two new ones with Thing in the Ice and Engulf the Shores. They're all high rarity, of course, but high volume players will be getting them quickly and they'll filter through to all levels of play eventually.

Top Kiora decks are already ignoring everything with Drowner of Hope combos.

MTG_Mage

Walls (creatures that cant attack) are a great idea

I think RC just needs to have hexproof go away at the beginning of the next upkeep it comes into play or is reinforced

soultwist

Coconut99 wrote:

What I'm surprised I didn't see get mentioned here...what about pairing this with Rogue's Passage?

At that point, screw Defenders. You're down to target-all cards and that's it.

And then add Vigilance to it. Just ran into that the first NoP game. Was literally nothing I could do. And it's got prevent damage target-all's wont kill it.

Excuse me while I go fix the hole in the wall I threw my phone at.

madwren

That's why it's good to play non-targeting spells, though.

I like when things shift. It stimulates creativity and is more of a challenge when you suddenly have to find answers to things.

soultwist

madwren wrote:

That's why it's good to play non-targeting spells, though.

I like when things shift. It stimulates creativity and is more of a challenge when you suddenly have to find answers to things.

What non targeting spells are going to get around Prevent Damage?

span_argoman

madwren wrote:

That's why it's good to play non-targeting spells, though.

I like when things shift. It stimulates creativity and is more of a challenge when you suddenly have to find answers to things.

Tips for mono-Red? Against the Unblockable + Vigilance version of Runaway Carriage.

soultwist

span_argoman wrote:

madwren wrote:

That's why it's good to play non-targeting spells, though.

I like when things shift. It stimulates creativity and is more of a challenge when you suddenly have to find answers to things.

Tips for mono-Red? Against the Unblockable + Vigilance version of Runaway Carriage.

Flying?

span_argoman

soultwist wrote:

span_argoman wrote:

madwren wrote:

That's why it's good to play non-targeting spells, though.

I like when things shift. It stimulates creativity and is more of a challenge when you suddenly have to find answers to things.

Tips for mono-Red? Against the Unblockable + Vigilance version of Runaway Carriage.

Flying?

Lol. Hope I don't ever face the Unblockable + Reach version then. Red has 8 Flying creatures and there are 4 more Colourless Flying creatures (although Stonewing Agonizer needs to be transformed and Westvale Abbey isn't yet available). Deckbuilding is gonna be easy.

Mcjordan

This card is way worse than UC. With Rogue's Passage and Gideon 1's vigilance ability without the need for a card makes it incredibly unfun to play against.

I don't understand the logic to put in one card that forces you to change every one of your decks to counter. It makes no sense.

Edit: Also, Gideon 1 decks with this are all over Platinum NoP. It makes me want to quit playing the event.

shteev

Mcjordan wrote:

Edit: Also, Gideon 1 decks with this are all over Platinum NoP. It makes me want to quit playing the event.

Don't play against Gideon 1 decks then. Quit the node, re-enter and you'll get a different opponent and planeswalker.

It's a bit of an exploit of a **** system, but you can bet that those players who are at the top of your ladder are doing it.

HomeRn

Hibernum_JC wrote:

Part of the reason why this card is in is to shift the meta a little bit by making you make more tech choices.

People in general do not play many Defenders, and there's plenty of good Defenders in the game. This dies to every single Defender in the game, Scions included.

We'll keep tracking it and if it becomes a real problem, we'll address it, but right now it is an above-average uncommon, which is good to have.

Problem: Skeleton Key exists. That plus the carriage = something that is nearly INVINCIBLE (even more so than the original Undergrowth Champion - whom needs to be buffed if it's going to be destroyed outright by destroy effects now!!) that can only now be dealt with by non-targeted debuffs or mass-bounce spells.

Mcjordan

Don't play against Gideon 1 decks then. Quit the node, re-enter and you'll get a different opponent and planeswalker.

It's a bit of an exploit of a **** system, but you can bet that those players who are at the top of your ladder are doing it.

I didn't realize you could do this, thanks! That is pretty cheap, and I already lost to one or two of these decks, but I'm avoiding Gideon from now on.

span_argoman

shteev wrote:

Mcjordan wrote:

Edit: Also, Gideon 1 decks with this are all over Platinum NoP. It makes me want to quit playing the event.

Don't play against Gideon 1 decks then. Quit the node, re-enter and you'll get a different opponent and planeswalker.

It's a bit of an exploit of a **** system, but you can bet that those players who are at the top of your ladder are doing it.

Don't play against Green planeswalkers either. This is probably a pain to deal with:
Runaway Carriage
Nissa's Pilgrimage
Fertile Thicket
Zendikar Resurgent
Rogue's Passage
Tamiyo's Journal
True-Faith Censer
Gather the Pack
Mantle of Webs
Skeleton Key

Rootbreaker

Hmm, I haven't run into this yet. Let's see what the decks I'm running in NoP have in them that could deal with it...

Kiora + Garruk - The Great Aurora
Koth - Void Winnower removes defensive abilities
Sarkhan - Fleshbag Maruader can kill hexproof creatures
Gideon - Veteran Warleader can block - this deck is pretty dead to carriage + rogue's passage + defender ability. Maybe I should throw a winnower or rogue's passage or something in there.

span_argoman

Rootbreaker wrote:

Hmm, I haven't run into this yet. Let's see what the decks I'm running in NoP have in them that could deal with it...

Kiora + Garruk - The Great Aurora
Koth - Void Winnower removes defensive abilities
Sarkhan - Fleshbag Maruader can kill hexproof creatures
Gideon - Veteran Warleader can block - this deck is pretty dead to carriage + rogue's passage + defender ability. Maybe I should throw a winnower or rogue's passage or something in there.

Just a note, Void Winnower doesn't work against True-Faith Censer as Runaway Carriage will regain Vigilance (if it works the same way as Knightly Valor) after the swap-around.