From Undergrowth Champion to Runaway Carriage[Merged Topic]

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Comments

  • Hibernum_JC
    Hibernum_JC Posts: 318 Mover and Shaker
    Part of the reason why this card is in is to shift the meta a little bit by making you make more tech choices.

    People in general do not play many Defenders, and there's plenty of good Defenders in the game. This dies to every single Defender in the game, Scions included.

    We'll keep tracking it and if it becomes a real problem, we'll address it, but right now it is an above-average uncommon, which is good to have.
  • shteev
    shteev Posts: 2,031 Chairperson of the Boards
    Hibernum_JC wrote:
    Part of the reason why this card is in is to shift the meta a little bit by making you make more tech choices.

    People in general do not play many Defenders, and there's plenty of good Defenders in the game. This dies to every single Defender in the game, Scions included.

    We'll keep tracking it and if it becomes a real problem, we'll address it, but right now it is an above-average uncommon, which is good to have.

    I'm genuinely impressed you took the decision to print a card that would shift the meta-game, to whatever degree, at uncommon.

    Making it colorless might have been too bold a move, but this is the kind of experimentation on your part I really appreciate.
  • span_argoman
    span_argoman Posts: 751 Critical Contributor
    edited August 2016
    Hibernum_JC wrote:
    Part of the reason why this card is in is to shift the meta a little bit by making you make more tech choices.

    People in general do not play many Defenders, and there's plenty of good Defenders in the game. This dies to every single Defender in the game, Scions included.

    We'll keep tracking it and if it becomes a real problem, we'll address it, but right now it is an above-average uncommon, which is good to have.
    While the attempt to shift the meta is laudable, I would like to hear what the design team thought of the card's impact on Berserkers, namely that they are all going to take 5 damage (if RC Is unbuffed) the turn after Runaway Carriage is summoned even if you have a defender on the board due to summoning sickness. This makes Berserkers and cards like Odric a potential liability.

    Did the team feel that Berserkers were too strong? Or did they feel that Red needed to be handicapped by having defenders which isn't exactly in line with the Red theme?

    Red doesn't exactly have a good selection of defenders to choose from, it has:
    Deathless Behemoth
    Resolute Blademaster
    Epitaph Golem
    Harvest Hand
    Blight Herder (only if you can Process 2)
    Hulking Devil
    Skyraker Giant
    Guardian Automaton
    Guardians of Meletis
    Ondu Champion
    Wild-Field Scarecrow
    True-Faith Censer
    Haunted Cloak

    Not exactly a great list save Resolute Blademaster, Blight Herder (if you have Ingest), Skyraker Giant, Harvest Hand and True-Faith Censer. And Resolute Blademaster costs almost double of Runaway Carriage but will also die in the exchange.

    I hope we are able to have some insight into this decision, thanks!

    *edit*
    Forgot Haunted Cloak
  • Coconut99
    Coconut99 Posts: 212
    What I'm surprised I didn't see get mentioned here...what about pairing this with Rogue's Passage?

    At that point, screw Defenders. You're down to target-all cards and that's it.
  • Morphis
    Morphis Posts: 975 Critical Contributor
    To me the card still make no sense.

    Shaking the meta can be done through other means.

    Also to be honest we do not even know which direction the meta could take just cause of all other SoI cards.

    The card designs is overall interesting.
    It is just too easy to abuse.

    also shaking the meta...
    How?
    Forcing people to play defenders just because of this card?

    You could give an actual reason to play some defenders implementing walls(cannot attack) with premium defensive stats.

    So far there is only one defender that cannot attack in the game and it is totally worthless(being a common that's normal).
  • shteev
    shteev Posts: 2,031 Chairperson of the Boards
    There are so many new board sweeps around, tho. Black's always had Languish, White has a new board sweep in Descend upon the Sinners, Blue has two new ones with Thing in the Ice and Engulf the Shores. They're all high rarity, of course, but high volume players will be getting them quickly and they'll filter through to all levels of play eventually.

    Top Kiora decks are already ignoring everything with Drowner of Hope combos.
  • MTG_Mage
    MTG_Mage Posts: 224 Tile Toppler
    Walls (creatures that cant attack) are a great idea

    I think RC just needs to have hexproof go away at the beginning of the next upkeep it comes into play or is reinforced
  • soultwist
    soultwist Posts: 325 Mover and Shaker
    Coconut99 wrote:
    What I'm surprised I didn't see get mentioned here...what about pairing this with Rogue's Passage?

    At that point, screw Defenders. You're down to target-all cards and that's it.


    And then add Vigilance to it. Just ran into that the first NoP game. Was literally nothing I could do. And it's got prevent damage target-all's wont kill it.

    Excuse me while I go fix the hole in the wall I threw my phone at.
  • madwren
    madwren Posts: 2,260 Chairperson of the Boards
    That's why it's good to play non-targeting spells, though.

    I like when things shift. It stimulates creativity and is more of a challenge when you suddenly have to find answers to things.
  • soultwist
    soultwist Posts: 325 Mover and Shaker
    madwren wrote:
    That's why it's good to play non-targeting spells, though.

    I like when things shift. It stimulates creativity and is more of a challenge when you suddenly have to find answers to things.

    What non targeting spells are going to get around Prevent Damage?
  • span_argoman
    span_argoman Posts: 751 Critical Contributor
    madwren wrote:
    That's why it's good to play non-targeting spells, though.

    I like when things shift. It stimulates creativity and is more of a challenge when you suddenly have to find answers to things.
    Tips for mono-Red? Against the Unblockable + Vigilance version of Runaway Carriage.
  • soultwist
    soultwist Posts: 325 Mover and Shaker
    span_argoman wrote:
    madwren wrote:
    That's why it's good to play non-targeting spells, though.

    I like when things shift. It stimulates creativity and is more of a challenge when you suddenly have to find answers to things.
    Tips for mono-Red? Against the Unblockable + Vigilance version of Runaway Carriage.

    Flying?
  • span_argoman
    span_argoman Posts: 751 Critical Contributor
    soultwist wrote:
    span_argoman wrote:
    madwren wrote:
    That's why it's good to play non-targeting spells, though.

    I like when things shift. It stimulates creativity and is more of a challenge when you suddenly have to find answers to things.
    Tips for mono-Red? Against the Unblockable + Vigilance version of Runaway Carriage.

    Flying?
    Lol. Hope I don't ever face the Unblockable + Reach version then. Red has 8 Flying creatures and there are 4 more Colourless Flying creatures (although Stonewing Agonizer needs to be transformed and Westvale Abbey isn't yet available). Deckbuilding is gonna be easy.
  • Mcjordan
    Mcjordan Posts: 82 Match Maker
    This card is way worse than UC. With Rogue's Passage and Gideon 1's vigilance ability without the need for a card makes it incredibly unfun to play against.

    I don't understand the logic to put in one card that forces you to change every one of your decks to counter. It makes no sense.

    Edit: Also, Gideon 1 decks with this are all over Platinum NoP. It makes me want to quit playing the event.
  • shteev
    shteev Posts: 2,031 Chairperson of the Boards
    Mcjordan wrote:
    Edit: Also, Gideon 1 decks with this are all over Platinum NoP. It makes me want to quit playing the event.

    Don't play against Gideon 1 decks then. Quit the node, re-enter and you'll get a different opponent and planeswalker.

    It's a bit of an exploit of a **** system, but you can bet that those players who are at the top of your ladder are doing it.
  • HomeRn
    HomeRn Posts: 330 Mover and Shaker
    edited August 2016
    Hibernum_JC wrote:
    Part of the reason why this card is in is to shift the meta a little bit by making you make more tech choices.

    People in general do not play many Defenders, and there's plenty of good Defenders in the game. This dies to every single Defender in the game, Scions included.

    We'll keep tracking it and if it becomes a real problem, we'll address it, but right now it is an above-average uncommon, which is good to have.
    Problem: Skeleton Key exists. That plus the carriage = something that is nearly INVINCIBLE (even more so than the original Undergrowth Champion - whom needs to be buffed if it's going to be destroyed outright by destroy effects now!!) that can only now be dealt with by non-targeted debuffs or mass-bounce spells.
  • Mcjordan
    Mcjordan Posts: 82 Match Maker
    Don't play against Gideon 1 decks then. Quit the node, re-enter and you'll get a different opponent and planeswalker.

    It's a bit of an exploit of a **** system, but you can bet that those players who are at the top of your ladder are doing it.


    I didn't realize you could do this, thanks! That is pretty cheap, and I already lost to one or two of these decks, but I'm avoiding Gideon from now on.
  • span_argoman
    span_argoman Posts: 751 Critical Contributor
    shteev wrote:
    Mcjordan wrote:
    Edit: Also, Gideon 1 decks with this are all over Platinum NoP. It makes me want to quit playing the event.

    Don't play against Gideon 1 decks then. Quit the node, re-enter and you'll get a different opponent and planeswalker.

    It's a bit of an exploit of a **** system, but you can bet that those players who are at the top of your ladder are doing it.
    Don't play against Green planeswalkers either. This is probably a pain to deal with:
    Runaway Carriage
    Nissa's Pilgrimage
    Fertile Thicket
    Zendikar Resurgent
    Rogue's Passage
    Tamiyo's Journal
    True-Faith Censer
    Gather the Pack
    Mantle of Webs
    Skeleton Key
  • Rootbreaker
    Rootbreaker Posts: 396
    Hmm, I haven't run into this yet. Let's see what the decks I'm running in NoP have in them that could deal with it...

    Kiora + Garruk - The Great Aurora
    Koth - Void Winnower removes defensive abilities
    Sarkhan - Fleshbag Maruader can kill hexproof creatures
    Gideon - Veteran Warleader can block - this deck is pretty dead to carriage + rogue's passage + defender ability. Maybe I should throw a winnower or rogue's passage or something in there.
  • span_argoman
    span_argoman Posts: 751 Critical Contributor
    Rootbreaker wrote:
    Hmm, I haven't run into this yet. Let's see what the decks I'm running in NoP have in them that could deal with it...

    Kiora + Garruk - The Great Aurora
    Koth - Void Winnower removes defensive abilities
    Sarkhan - Fleshbag Maruader can kill hexproof creatures
    Gideon - Veteran Warleader can block - this deck is pretty dead to carriage + rogue's passage + defender ability. Maybe I should throw a winnower or rogue's passage or something in there.
    Just a note, Void Winnower doesn't work against True-Faith Censer as Runaway Carriage will regain Vigilance (if it works the same way as Knightly Valor) after the swap-around.

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