Cupcakes,for or against?

Arimis_Thorn

firethorne wrote:

Efficiency isn't the problem, integrity is. It is efficient to bet against your friend in a boxing match, knowing that he agreed he'll go down on the first punch and you'll split the money.

Just because something is efficient doesn't make it the right thing to do or healthy for people's trust in the game. Throwing matched shouldn't be the expectation for players. I can't believe I even have to say that.

That's a fine looking high horse...

If we're going to get into semantics, Integrity is simply doing what you said you would do. The End. As it pertains to MPQ, all you really "said you would do" is use a team of your players to try to beat another players team. That's it. You aren't cheating in any way. And even the baker still has to actually beat another team with their cupcake team. Sometimes that involves using AOE teamups. Should we disable those too?

This is players working within the rules of the game. You are free to complain about these lazy kids these days

rbdragon

jimstarooney wrote:

...

Lastly, jim seems to think that placement rewards matter.To a f2p player they do,100hp alliance,100hp placement and the 100 i get from the next event deems it so

...

I'm f2p...

I haven't cared about placement since 2014...

Colognoisseur

I think any mechanism which allows players to reach 1300 is a good thing. From almost the very first 1300 progression award was instituted the players devised a way for the most who wanted it to get it. Cupcakes are just the most recent version of that.
If the devs find some way to stop cupcakes there will just be another workaround that will come into play.

BlackSheep101

I finally decide to weigh in and Colog says exactly what I was thinking.

morph3us

Well, this rapidly turned into a bunfight. I guess that's what happens when you start an argument in a bakery

alphabeta

So I'm for cupcakes because the very concept of having an alliance shows a degree of cooperation is intended and I benefit (and bake)

While the game mechanic is broken it's fair for players to work within those rules to play however they want - when you don't make the rules all you can do is play however you want within them.

But for a radical suggestion - how about just removing the lost points for defensive fights - cupcakes prove devs can't slow down the rate with which progression rewards are earned so make it a match 3 game where I test my strategy and roster vs other teams to see if I can best then and make progress rather than worry if I don't shield hop and bake even with a 4* roster I'll barely make 1k every now and again

rawfsu

I see there is already a steady discussion on this matter, but wanted to chime in anyways. I'm for cupcakes, and here's my reason why. I'm sure we all know by now there's an invisible wall that most of us run into once we hit a certain point total. As our rosters get better, we seems to be able to push that wall back a bit, but it's still there. For the higher tier players, and of course whales, this is a small thing. But for us commoners, myself included, it becomes a point of frustration. I had the experience recently where I climbed to 768 and shielded for 24 hours overnight. I was desperately hoping to get the Prof X pink offered at 1k. When I initially shielded, I cycled through and kept seeing the same 5 or 6 names over and over with teams I couldn't touch. I thought since it's late, not many people must be climbing. I woke up in the morning and cycled through again. Same story, five or six players names with no one to hit. Checked mid afternoon. Same deal. Checked at 3 hours left. Same. Checked several times within an hour of the event ending. Nothing. Now, after investing a 24 hour shield, you would figure I'd catch at least ONE more match, right? After all, there are 999 other players in my same event. Thanks to the wall, I got holed in with no where to go. People may argue cupcakes aren't fair, but on the other hand, is getting landlocked fair? Is this invisible wall, that is not so invisible, fair? If I got hit the heck out of because I'm trying to run with the big boys, that's one thing. Now, if I'm literally stranded on overpowered island based on some formula I have no control over, I definitely have a problem with that. Cupcakes seem to be the only way to break through. This is my argument as to why I'm for cupcakes.

carrion_pigeons

simonsez wrote:

carrion pigeons wrote:

That may be true for the last few, but not for the majority of the points you take, and again, it's only true because of cupcaking.

tinykitty. Waiting a couple minutes to hit a 75 point target to keep points in the shard, has nothing to do with cupcaking.

How can that be true? The entire point of cupcaking is the idea that you can give away points without losing any yourself. "Have your cake and eat it too". The motivation of cupcaking is very exactly to take the zero-sum nature of PvP away by gimmicking the shield mechanic. "Waiting a couple minutes to hit a 75 point target" isn't baking a cupcake, but it certainly is part of cupcaking.

ngoni

fight4thedream wrote:

we should be standing united against RNG determination of the top reward in the game,

Totally agree with you there. Make 5* covers a reasonable 200-250CP. Then RNG isn't a factor.

Pylgrim

fight4thedream wrote:

we should be standing united against RNG determination of the top reward in the game

Hah, it just struck me that a broken Player VS Player mechanic in the game and the different ways how players adapt to it are actually pitting Player VS Player here in the forum as well. F4tD is right, instead of accusing and blaming each other we need to stop and realise we've been set up in this conflict: If there were tiered leagues as Jamie proposes, we wouldn't be having this problem. If the 1k progression reward was not the only surefire way for 3* transitioners to advance their roster we wouldn't be having this problem. If luck didn't have such a powerful impact speeding up some people's progression while almost stopping others's, we wouldn't be having this problem.

firethorne

fight4thedream wrote:

we should be standing united against RNG determination of the top reward in the game,

And I'll get behind that too. It seems pretty evident from this thread that, regardless of your stance on the cupcake issue, most people think the overall system is fundamentally broken in a number of ways. From random progression that no one likes to an ill-considered PvP system, there are deeper issues at play here. And if the devs paid attention to them, threads like this wouldn't even exist.

TxMoose

personally I don't think tiered groupings would make any difference at all other than the character makeup of the cakes. the Vs and Xs of the world still want to be #1/#2 and the best way to do that with the current mechanics of the game (shields, hits, pts lost, etc.) is for the frontrunners to feed the alliance (and others). 3* tiers would be baking with 120s. 4* tiers would be baking with level 70-140 chos and miles's and venoms. I don't see how tiering changes that part of it.

I agree that the focus should be fixing the system, which I think a thriving bakery meta might, possibly, help prod along (maybe - it still benefits me while showing the absurdity of the system). but (as someone pointed out to me once) maybe it doesn't prod anything along. baking promotes lots of shielding and hopping, which is hp spent. I'm not convinced that d3/demiurge want anything to change because that might mean lots less spent on shields, which would then make hp nearly for slots exclusively, which is dumb in the current economy. I can already buy daily deals if I want to. any reduction in hp requirements now would nearly all be surplus just to spend on a decent vault.

alaeth

I'm in favor, and occasionally bake myself (most in LRs I bake, always fun to see a 2* transition roster take 50+ points).

Do I feel CCs are required? no

Have they saved my bacon? more than once

I'm not sure what mechanic could possibly be implemented (asside from more seed teams) that would be even remotely similar.

actually... more seed teams... randomly in the event, a seed team would appear - loaner essential and semi-cupcake (maybe Champed 2*) worth 50 points or so... Would certainly take the edge off the lean slices with nothing over 30 points...

nic13

I am personally against cupcakes. I hit them on sight, and often hit known bakers before they even have the chance to start baking. This is because they have completely skewed scoring and placement.

HOWEVER. I recognise some benefits : Players seem to have become more motivated, more willing to shield and hop. Overall engagement is higher, which extends the lifespan of the game. Good

Flip side is, to get some placement, you will likely have to spend on shields. This makes the game even more p2w than it already is.

I suspect this also alienates players who are at that unfortunate stage where they don't know about the forum, much less about LINE, who wonders how on earth they would have to score that 1k to place t100? Bear in mind that when some of us started out, 600+ was a secure t100.

I feel that there is a proper way to play this game through true roster progression. The RNG effect of 5*'s are unfortunate but I think D3 has sunk too deep into this end to be able to reverse it without the'top end' players crying foul.

There are other mechanics that can be used. For instance, keep pve rewarda progressions only, and pvp rewards placement only. And in this, we will probably find more meaning in our alliances, growing as an alliance (instead of via buy clubs!), cooperate, strategies to maximise rewards for the alliance instead of a cluster-tinykitty of shield check rooms.

Der_Lex

nic13 wrote:

Flip side is, to get some placement, you will likely have to spend on shields. This makes the game even more p2w than it already is.

This is a (possibly THE) fundamental flaw of the current PvP system, though, and has nothing to do with cupcakes. If there were no cupcakes at all, people would still be shield-hopping and scoring to the same degree.

meekersX

carrion pigeons wrote:

simonsez wrote:

carrion pigeons wrote:

That may be true for the last few, but not for the majority of the points you take, and again, it's only true because of cupcaking.

tinykitty. Waiting a couple minutes to hit a 75 point target to keep points in the shard, has nothing to do with cupcaking.

How can that be true? The entire point of cupcaking is the idea that you can give away points without losing any yourself. "Have your cake and eat it too". The motivation of cupcaking is very exactly to take the zero-sum nature of PvP away by gimmicking the shield mechanic. "Waiting a couple minutes to hit a 75 point target" isn't baking a cupcake, but it certainly is part of cupcaking.

I see exploiting shields as a separate issue from cupcaking. Shield exploitation is in fact the main mechanic that breaks the zero-sum nature of PvP. Far before cupcakes became a thing, people would coordinate shields to bounce hits off each other fighting their A-teams. Even now I do this, as almost all of my climb is done against A-teams since with my roster I am only able to consistently queue cupcakes when I'm above 1100 points. If you somehow got rid of cupcakes, this would still occur.

nic13

Der_Lex wrote:

nic13 wrote:

Flip side is, to get some placement, you will likely have to spend on shields. This makes the game even more p2w than it already is.

This is a (possibly THE) fundamental flaw of the current PvP system, though, and has nothing to do with cupcakes. If there were no cupcakes at all, people would still be shield-hopping and scoring to the same degree.

I'm not sure. Many players were content with a 1300 t50. There will always be the crazy buggers who just like to make big points (including myself, once upon a time not long ago). But we are seeing 2k across the board now. I don't know how much of that is for the love of the game and wanting to keep playing, or simply to obtain placement.

carrion_pigeons

aesthetocyst wrote:

Finally, the thread has devolved to set theory fails.

{the set of all behaviors which constitute cupcaking} != {baking a cupcake}

Tell me where I've got this wrong: cupcaking is when

1) A player (call him the baker) beats another player's team with a less powerful team
2) Another player (or many) are informed of the opportunity to attack this weaker team
3) Other players give the baker the opportunity to shield
4) Those other players attack the baker's team

My understanding is that people are calling #1 Baking a Cupcake, but doing that on its own isn't sufficient to insert extra points into a shard. You actually need #1, #3, and #4 in order to make that happen. And even then, I'd argue it doesn't actually constitute cupcaking (as opposed to "goofing around with subpar teams") unless you go out of your way to make sure your friends can get extra points out of it, which is #2.

ZeroKarma

nic13 wrote:

I am personally against cupcakes. I hit them on sight, and often hit known bakers before they even have the chance to start baking. This is because they have completely skewed scoring and placement.

HOWEVER. I recognise some benefits : Players seem to have become more motivated, more willing to shield and hop. Overall engagement is higher, which extends the lifespan of the game. Good

I want to add something here that may be unpopular with the other bakers but I feel is important.

Snipers have a role to play in this game of cupcakes as well. They hold scoring down and add an element of danger to the mix. We swear about them, target them and try to enforce against them, but they are a part of an ecosystem that the players have developed in the midst of an otherwise forgettable PvP experience.

I'd say that they are bullies, but honestly have met quite a few on LINE,l and they just have a different view of how the game "should" be played, but are normal people having fun with a game. They just do it differently.

Probably a good thing regardless, because as people have mentioned there are no rewards after 1300, so with no snipers it's just a straight race based 100% on endurance and shields spent.

And as a quick note. Reformed snipers are some of the best bakers out there!

Ram51

SnowcaTT wrote:

I'll say this for being off Line, in the 2-3 weeks following not having it I only hit 1000 in each event instead of 1300.

But I also found time to put ~120 hours into Dragon Age : Inquisition. Makes you think.

You can do Line and playing other games you know in fact i have more time to play other games BECAUSE of cupcakes