Cupcakes,for or against?

fmftint

firethorne wrote:

Heck, I learned about a kind of exploit for bracket entry I didn't even know existed, and it was casually dropped as if it was standard practice on the devs forum.

Take a look at the events forum, there is a bracket thread for every pve, for as long as the forums have existed, it's not an exploit

ZeroKarma

firethorne wrote:

Pylgrim wrote:

I was kind of baffled to learn that some people could be against ccs, but after reading through the thread a clear pattern has emerged: The people against are all ones that do NOT need ccs to reach the highest progression rewards and despise the fact that those who wouldn't be able to hit them can. The entitlement of certain 4* and above players is disconcerting and disgusting.

I'm against them. I've never hit 1300. I occasionally make 1000, but not on a regular interval. I'm think I'm more casual than a lot of the people that are for I don't have any max 4*s. I simply don't want to participate in getting into line chats so I can be pressured into throwing matches so I can. What I find disconcerting and disgusting is how widespread use of exploits are. Heck, I learned about a kind of exploit for bracket entry I didn't even know existed, and it was casually dropped as if it was standard practice on the devs forum.

No, my reason is simple. A game where you feel pressured to exploit the system isn't a good thing. I think more of the casual side are even more unaware of this sort of behavior. I sort of knew it existed, but am now gaining a realization that it is a lot more widespread than I had originally thought, and that kind of skeeves me out.

Firethorne,

I understand your frustration at not hitting progressions with your roster. I also respect that you don't want to spend time coordinating in LINE like many others.

What I don't get is why you are against the people who are doing the above and putting in a ton of time and effort being able to enjoy the game in this way.

I guess I just don't see it as so much of an exploit as others. Do I have to always use my A team for fear that someone with a lesser roster may get some points? What parameters define the team I am allowed to use?

lukewin

firethorne wrote:

Heck, I learned about a kind of exploit for bracket entry I didn't even know existed, and it was casually dropped as if it was standard practice on the devs forum.

No, my reason is simple. A game where you feel pressured to exploit the system isn't a good thing. I think more of the casual side are even more unaware of this sort of behavior. I sort of knew it existed, but am now gaining a realization that it is a lot more widespread than I had originally thought, and that kind of skeeves me out.

You must not use the forums that often, as the bracket count threads have existed since Nov 2014, here's a link to the first one, started by yours truly. The reasoning for it being created is also in the first post. More of making an informed decision, by knowing how the system works, than jumping in blindly. But call it an exploit, since it wasn't intended by the devs.

firethorne

ZeroKarma wrote:

firethorne wrote:

Pylgrim wrote:

I was kind of baffled to learn that some people could be against ccs, but after reading through the thread a clear pattern has emerged: The people against are all ones that do NOT need ccs to reach the highest progression rewards and despise the fact that those who wouldn't be able to hit them can. The entitlement of certain 4* and above players is disconcerting and disgusting.

I'm against them. I've never hit 1300. I occasionally make 1000, but not on a regular interval. I'm think I'm more casual than a lot of the people that are for I don't have any max 4*s. I simply don't want to participate in getting into line chats so I can be pressured into throwing matches so I can. What I find disconcerting and disgusting is how widespread use of exploits are. Heck, I learned about a kind of exploit for bracket entry I didn't even know existed, and it was casually dropped as if it was standard practice on the devs forum.

No, my reason is simple. A game where you feel pressured to exploit the system isn't a good thing. I think more of the casual side are even more unaware of this sort of behavior. I sort of knew it existed, but am now gaining a realization that it is a lot more widespread than I had originally thought, and that kind of skeeves me out.

Firethorne,

I understand your frustration at not hitting progressions with your roster. I also respect that you don't want to spend time coordinating in LINE like many others.

What I don't get is why you are against the people who are doing the above and putting in a ton of time and effort being able to enjoy the game in this way.

I guess I just don't see it as so much of an exploit as others. Do I have to always use my A team for fear that someone with a lesser roster may get some points? What parameters define the team I am allowed to use?

And that's the difference: I do see it as an exploit. Perhaps, I know that even my mediocre roster is pretty good for my alliance, and there are casual players, friends of mine, who have abandoned this game because they thought they were just spinning their wheels and not getting anywhere, and wouldn't expect any of these exploits to exist. And there are other players in my alliance not fixing fights that feel like they're really struggling. They wouldn't think fixing fights is the 'proper' way to play, not should they. And they shouldn't need to feel like they have to go onto some third party chat to make headway.

Honestly, didn't know this was so widespread. And, I don't feel like I should have to know this is the norm, not should anyone coming to the game for the first time. But, apparently it is...

Ducky

If the upcoming MMR changes eliminate, or greatly reduce, the ability to cupcake, I am going to revel in all the tears that this forum weeps.

GuntherBlobel

firethorne wrote:

Honestly, didn't know this was so widespread. And, I don't feel like I should have to know this is the norm, not should anyone coming to the game for the first time. But, apparently it is...

I think a lot of people would be appalled if they only knew it existed.

The 2 times that I've hit 1300, the biggest struggle was to score above 900. Oddly, once I make it above 1K, I sometimes discover an entirely new game, where you can hit the equivalent of seed teams to score the next 300 pts. I think that knowledge would piss off a huge number of players. However, they would only know to be upset if they came to the forums, and they could then only take advantage of it if they spent their free time on LINE. Not everyone is (or wants to be) on the forum or LINE, but everyone feels the frustration of scoring well in PvP.

meekersX

I'm for cupcakes in PvP such as it is.

PvP progression rewards aren't zero-sum - someone attaining a progression reward doesn't prevent someone else from attaining the same reward. I usually bake at least once or twice per PvP. I remember how difficult it was before cupcakes to hit 1k with just a 3* roster. Sometimes I get sniped while dropping a cupcake, but I still do so, because I enjoy helping as many people as possible reach 1k and 1.3k.

Cupcakes have a very marginal effect on placement. Placement is primarily determined by (1) HP spent on shields, (2) time spent coordinating hops, and (3) roster strength. Those that place highly dedicate more time and money to the game, and have the roster to show for it.

udonomefoo

I hate to use the term "basic disconnect" on this forum given that phrases history

But I think it's worth pointing out that (from my interpretation of what I'm reading) the people who are against cupcaking aren't saying that they want cupcaking to be taken away and for everything else to remain the same. They're saying "the system is broken and I don't like that you have to exploit it to get ahead or to make it fun".

There's no reason for butthurt in this thread, we all just want a more enjoyable, engaging experience from this game.

Pylgrim

firethorne wrote:

Pylgrim wrote:

I was kind of baffled to learn that some people could be against ccs, but after reading through the thread a clear pattern has emerged: The people against are all ones that do NOT need ccs to reach the highest progression rewards and despise the fact that those who wouldn't be able to hit them can. The entitlement of certain 4* and above players is disconcerting and disgusting.

I'm against them. I've never hit 1300. I occasionally make 1000, but not on a regular interval. I'm think I'm more casual than a lot of the people that are for I don't have any max 4*s. I simply don't want to participate in getting into line chats so I can be pressured into throwing matches so I can. What I find disconcerting and disgusting is how widespread use of exploits are. Heck, I learned about a kind of exploit for bracket entry I didn't even know existed, and it was casually dropped as if it was standard practice on the devs forum.

No, my reason is simple. A game where you feel pressured to exploit the system isn't a good thing. I think more of the casual side are even more unaware of this sort of behavior. I sort of knew it existed, but am now gaining a realization that it is a lot more widespread than I had originally thought, and that kind of skeeves me out.

Alright, hear me out. You say that you are a casual player, right? So you are mostly concerned with what you can do in your own terms at your own pace. You may call a "exploit" the way other people more determined to get better results out of their effort do, and it may be. At the very least, it's gaming the system. Thing is that the system is broken as both supporters and antagonists of cupcakes have explained in this thread. Nevertheless, let's go back to you: If you really don't like this kind of tactics, you do well in following your own heart. As such, what the players that bake and eat cupcakes do should make no difference to you. In fact, it makes a small difference and is positive: from time to time, you'll get randomly lucky and find a cupcake team among the sea of maxed, boosted and championed 4*s that populate the ranks above 800 points. Is that not a welcome thing?

Additionally, the fact that you use the term "throwing matches", suggest me that you don't fully understand cupcakes. No one is losing in purpose. Cupcake teams are achieved via victories over saved seed teams and then, successively, over other cupcake teams. No one forces you to throw matches or to bake cupcakes, either.

Ruinate

firethorne wrote:

Pylgrim wrote:

I was kind of baffled to learn that some people could be against ccs, but after reading through the thread a clear pattern has emerged: The people against are all ones that do NOT need ccs to reach the highest progression rewards and despise the fact that those who wouldn't be able to hit them can. The entitlement of certain 4* and above players is disconcerting and disgusting.

I'm against them. I've never hit 1300. I occasionally make 1000, but not on a regular interval. I'm think I'm more casual than a lot of the people that are for I don't have any max 4*s. I simply don't want to participate in getting into line chats so I can be pressured into throwing matches so I can. What I find disconcerting and disgusting is how widespread use of exploits are. Heck, I learned about a kind of exploit for bracket entry I didn't even know existed, and it was casually dropped as if it was standard practice on the devs forum.

No, my reason is simple. A game where you feel pressured to exploit the system isn't a good thing. I think more of the casual side are even more unaware of this sort of behavior. I sort of knew it existed, but am now gaining a realization that it is a lot more widespread than I had originally thought, and that kind of skeeves me out.

I respect your stance, but maybe you should try it at least once before using words like disgusting because you don't quite understand how it works yet. I don't know why you think you'll feel pressured into throwing a match. Because Jaime said so? You're not a Villain and you're not Jaime Madrox. You're not an asset that can single handedly inject thousands of points into a shard. Go in and eat some cakes and get your first 1300. Your opinion might change. All they are doing when baking a cake is not using their most powerful trio. Hardly disgusting.

morph3us

Here's a question that has been bugging me for a while.

The main advantages of cupcakes are:
(1) They pretty much guarantee a hop will be successful (in terms of % chance of not losing a match fought)
(2) They allow a bigger jump than would have been previously possible (you can play more matches in the same time)
(3) They allow you to remain unshielded for a shorter period of time, if you're consuming said cupcakes.

With regards to the third point, does that adversely affect players who don't consume cupcakes? Assume we have two players. Player A lines up 2 cupcakes, hits them both, and reshields within 3-4 minutes. Player B lines up 2 regular targets, hits them both, and reshields within 6-7 minutes. Firstly, Player B is more likely to be hit, since he's unshielded for longer. Secondly, isn't Player B even more likely to get hit, since Player A is available as a target for a shorter period of time? In other words, is cupcaking decreasing the pool of unshielded targets at higher scores, making it more likely that those players not finding cupcakes are more likely to be hit?

I'm not sure whether this is, or isn't the case, and would be interested to hear people's thoughts.

In the interests of full disclosure, like TxMoose, I'm not a baker, nor am I in a baker's room, but I regularly find cupcakes and eat them over 1K (after giving people time to shield).

Ruinate

morph3us wrote:

Here's a question that has been bugging me for a while.

The main advantages of cupcakes are:
(1) They pretty much guarantee a hop will be successful (in terms of % chance of not losing a match fought)
(2) They allow a bigger jump than would have been previously possible (you can play more matches in the same time)
(3) They allow you to remain unshielded for a shorter period of time, if you're consuming said cupcakes.

With regards to the third point, does that adversely affect players who don't consume cupcakes? Assume we have two players. Player A lines up 2 cupcakes, hits them both, and reshields within 3-4 minutes. Player B lines up 2 regular targets, hits them both, and reshields within 6-7 minutes. Firstly, Player B is more likely to be hit, since he's unshielded for longer. Secondly, isn't Player B even more likely to get hit, since Player A is available as a target for a shorter period of time? In other words, is cupcaking decreasing the pool of unshielded targets at higher scores, making it more likely that those players not finding cupcakes are more likely to be hit?

I'm not sure whether this is, or isn't the case, and would be interested to hear people's thoughts.

In the interests of full disclosure, like TxMoose, I'm not a baker, nor am I in a baker's room, but I regularly find cupcakes and eat them over 1K (after giving people time to shield).

I don't think so. Sure they are unshieled for a shorter period, but they have incentive to keep going back out. Battle chats will be dead for 2+ hours. One person decides to step up and cake, and suddenly you have 15+ people going out to eat it.

SnowcaTT

I'll say this for being off Line, in the 2-3 weeks following not having it I only hit 1000 in each event instead of 1300.

But I also found time to put ~120 hours into Dragon Age : Inquisition. Makes you think.

SpiderKev

If we could get rid of cupcakes and Madrox the game would be darn near perfect!

carrion_pigeons

meekersX wrote:

PvP progression rewards aren't zero-sum - someone attaining a progression reward doesn't prevent someone else from attaining the same reward. I usually bake at least once or twice per PvP. I remember how difficult it was before cupcakes to hit 1k with just a 3* roster. Sometimes I get sniped while dropping a cupcake, but I still do so, because I enjoy helping as many people as possible reach 1k and 1.3k.

Without fancy shield tricks, PVP progression rewards absolutely are zero-sum. If you get to 1300 points off unshielded players, you are taking those points from other players and stopping them from getting progression rewards. That's the exact definition of zero-sum.

Cupcaking is the only way to get around the zero-sum nature of PvP.

JamieMadrox

SpiderKev wrote:

If we could get rid of cupcakes and Madrox the game would be darn near perfect!

Watch it buddy or I won't wait next time I see you out.

In all seriousness though. I see a lot of players in this thread that seem to think they're entitled to a fast pass to the top levels of play simply for showing up. Or at the very least a fast pass to top progression. I have news for you; you're not. Nothing in life is free. You have to work for it and put in your time just like the people that have already been playing this game for 2 years or more.

I know you're used to getting a trophy just for sitting on the bench and picking your knows while the real players win, but the real world doesn't work that way.

Ludaa

Qqqqqqqq! ****, wrong room!

morph3us

carrion pigeons wrote:

Without fancy shield tricks, PVP progression rewards absolutely are zero-sum. If you get to 1300 points off unshielded players, you are taking those points from other players and stopping them from getting progression rewards. That's the exact definition of zero-sum.

Cupcaking is the only way to get around the zero-sum nature of PvP.

Well, shielding is the only way to get around the zero-sum nature of PvP. Cupcaking just adds more points to the pool faster.

Pylgrim

Jamie Madrox wrote:

SpiderKev wrote:

If we could get rid of cupcakes and Madrox the game would be darn near perfect!

Watch it buddy or I won't wait next time I see you out.

In all seriousness though. I see a lot of players in this thread that seem to think they're entitled to a fast pass to the top levels of play simply for showing up. Or at the very least a fast pass to top progression. I have news for you; you're not. Nothing in life is free. You have to work for it and put in your time just like the people that have already been playing this game for 2 years or more.

I know you're used to getting a trophy just for sitting on the bench and picking your knows while the real players win, but the real world doesn't work that way.

Maybe there are some people like that here? I don't know, I guess you know players' names better. But take in account that there are also people like me, day 827 who due an extremely (and well documented) bad luck run got held behind in the 3* transition and only now is finally breaking through. I don't want anything for free and I've been putting in my time as much as anybody. But my roster some times have trouble battling the people near 1k points, let alone 1.3k. Is it bad of me using cupcakes as the only way to attain the scores that luckier people than me were attaining by day 700? And I can't be the only one in this position.

meekersX

carrion pigeons wrote:

meekersX wrote:

PvP progression rewards aren't zero-sum - someone attaining a progression reward doesn't prevent someone else from attaining the same reward. I usually bake at least once or twice per PvP. I remember how difficult it was before cupcakes to hit 1k with just a 3* roster. Sometimes I get sniped while dropping a cupcake, but I still do so, because I enjoy helping as many people as possible reach 1k and 1.3k.

Without fancy shield tricks, PVP progression rewards absolutely are zero-sum. If you get to 1300 points off unshielded players, you are taking those points from other players and stopping them from getting progression rewards. That's the exact definition of zero-sum.

Cupcaking is the only way to get around the zero-sum nature of PvP.

Uh, two points here. First, when you hit someone that is below 1000 points, you gain more points than they lose. Second, as you alluded to, if someone is shielded they don't even lose any points at all. No fancy tricks are required either; if I see a good match I try to wait at least 5 minutes, and they're usually shielded by the time I hit them. I don't think it makes sense to evaluate the current system as if shields didn't exist, as only the elite are able to make 1k, let alone 1.3k without shield hopping.