Cupcakes,for or against?

MPQ_Daywalker

jimstarooney wrote:

fmftint wrote:

If you're "losing placement" is because you choose to spend less on shields than others. 2k, HA! 2k is barely T50 in my current bracket

Exactly my point.how many in that t50 do u think could hit 2k without ccs?probably half of em if that

So your argument is that fewer players should be allowed to have high scores in PVP? Or only players with a certain level of roster should be allowed to have a high score? In reality, like fmftint indicated, those players scoring over 2000 points have spent quite a bit of HP on shields regardless of the quality of their roster. (See the Whats it like to play at higher tiers? discussion for some good examples of what some of those top players are spending.)

IMO, cupcakes will exist as long as shields are available and the progression rewards in PVP (e.g., a guaranteed 4* cover & 25 command points) greatly outweigh the placement rewards. I've personally never placed higher than Top 50 in a PVP and I'm totally fine with that. In the last two PVPs, I was able to reach 1000 with a mostly 3* roster. I had to spend a lot of HP to do it (around 600 each time) because I'm shielding a lot earlier (just after 800) and taking much shorter hops than the big guys (I usually only fit in one battle, then shield -- immediately after I see that it was a good idea, as I would have lost over 100 points). Occasionally I find a cupcake when I'm around the 950 - 975 mark and it's a wonderful thing -- I can actually relax a little bit knowing that I can finish the battle fast enough to not get hit and get the precious 4* cover I'm aiming for.

If everyone in your bracket is scoring over 2000 points in the top 50 and you really want placement rewards, pick a different slice, or join later. The later you join, the less likely you're going to find people scoring super-high in your bracket. That's what I do... even joining 12 hours after a slice has started has helped me find one where 1000 points gets you in the top 50 or 100.

PeterGibbons316

I don't think CCs are really robbing people of placement. Without CCs those 2k players would still be spending a lot of HP to place high anyway. Remember that each hop over ~1k nets no more than 225 points - typically closer to 150, and most people use both 3h and 8h shields. So that's 225 HP for every 300-400 points over 1k. Assuming your hop is clean and targets are available. So most are spending at least 1k in HP to get to 2k. If people are expecting to place high without spending that kind of HP then their expectations are unrealistic.

lukewin

I'm all for it. Anyone against it should be against coordinated shield hopping as well, b/c cupcakes is an optimal version of coordinated shield hopping. It is the most efficient way to score, so anyone against efficiency will probably find a problem with it.

fmftint

I gotta know, do you skip EVERY CC you queue? Player x just baked for +74, do you hit it, or keep skiping till you see him put out their A team

And, how do you suggest eliminating them?

cyineedsn

step 1) complain about cupcakes
step 2) get cupcakes removed
step 3) everyone has a slightly harder time climbing
step 4) still fail to get top placement rewards because someone will always spend more on shields than you
step 5) complain about shields

firethorne

Efficiency isn't the problem, integrity is. It is efficient to bet against your friend in a boxing match, knowing that he agreed he'll go down on the first punch and you'll split the money.

Just because something is efficient doesn't make it the right thing to do or healthy for people's trust in the game. Throwing matched shouldn't be the expectation for players. I can't believe I even have to say that.

ViralCore

You hit them as soon as Queue them and try to hit them multiple times. If you skip to their large team you won't get to eat cake.

fmftint wrote:

I gotta know, do you skip EVERY CC you queue? Player x just baked for +74, do you hit it, or keep skiping till you see him put out their A team

And, how do you suggest eliminating them?

xKOBALTx

I kind of don't want to step into this one, but there is just one point I want to make perfectly clear: taking advantage of cupcakes DOES NOT require outside coordination. It just doesn't. They are available to everybody who can find them. One of our commanders in AoB is not in any BC's at all. None. He's our highest season scorer and he isn't the only one that's doing it. Heck, I'm in a BC myself and would estimate that a good 75+% of the cakes I hit aren't even from my BC. I just find them while competing.

lukewin

firethorne wrote:

Efficiency isn't the problem, integrity is. It is efficient to bet against your friend in a boxing match, knowing that he agreed he'll go down on the first punch and you'll split the money.

Just because something is efficient doesn't make it the right thing to do or healthy for people's trust in the game. Throwing matched shouldn't be the expectation for players. I can't believe I even have to say that.

If integrity is being called into the equation, should people have been allowed to progress by buying covers to advance, instead of just winning covers by placement? Where does luck/RNG play into it, with token draws? Should the best rosters be owned by the luckiest/those willing to spend the most, and therefore entitle them to the highest ranks as well?

JamieMadrox

This should start something.

I'm against cupcakes. They're the MPQ equivalent of up up down down left right left right B A Start. Sure you're "beating the game", but you're not really playing it or challenging yourself. You're using a defect in the game to play it in a way not intended by the developers.

That said, cupcakes are just another example of the the players working around a broken system that needs an overhaul. Characters being released too quickly, ISO being in too short of supply to level characters, 5* characters being unevenly awarded to players and then so overpowered that they've broken the game. All of these are reasons why cupcakes (and shield hopping) exist.

Some of you will say I'm a hypocrite. Sure. I was a prolific baker for a few seasons (Villains Inc Season XXIII Master Baker), but I only started doing it in the first place because I felt pressured to do so by the other players in the alliances I was in. Baking is so ingrained in the psyche of the top alliances now that if you frontrun and don't bake you're ridiculed by the other players. "Eat 3 bake 1" was a phrase I saw more than once early on when I wasn't yet cupcaking a lot. Players that climb late on cupcakes and don't bake or only bake a few times are publically and privately decried for not being team players. Floating for too long and eating cakes because you have a strong 5* team is also met with negative feedback.

So now I play differently. I don't cupcake. I don't do coordinated shield hopping anymore. I rarely # check someone or skip a high value target even if I recognize their name. Cupcakes get eaten immediately and multiple times if I can find them again. I'm playing the closest to PVP that this game allows and it's been liberating.

The real takeaway from all of this discussion is that PVP needs a drastic overhaul. Specifically, we need:

1. Leagues - Tiered events with limited (by rarity) rosters and rewards that match.
   • Novice - Use only 1* or 2* characters. Rewards are 3* characters (top placement) and 2* for rest.
   • Expert - Use only 2* or 3* characters. Rewards are 4* characters (top placement) and 3* for rest.
   • Master - Use only 3* or 4* characters. Rewards are 5* characters (top placement) and 4* for rest.
   • Elite - Buy-in events with HP. Use only 5* characters. Rewards are 5* characters and increased ISO/HP/Covers/etc.
2. More ISO - Double to triple the current ISO rewards across the board.
3. Lightning Rounds - Make them 24/7 and rotate through all characters.

By no means is this a perfect fix for the issues we face as players, but it's a good start that would ensure the long-term viability of the game and player retention.

lukewin

Another thing to consider is where people are in the game. Those that can use the 4* covers / 25 CP for LTs, to build up their rosters, are probably in favor of a way to get more of them. Those that have used shield hopping to build up their rosters, and see little gain in continuing to do so, probably won't be in favor of it.

firethorne

lukewin wrote:

firethorne wrote:

Efficiency isn't the problem, integrity is. It is efficient to bet against your friend in a boxing match, knowing that he agreed he'll go down on the first punch and you'll split the money.

Just because something is efficient doesn't make it the right thing to do or healthy for people's trust in the game. Throwing matched shouldn't be the expectation for players. I can't believe I even have to say that.

If integrity is being called into the equation, should people have been allowed to progress by buying covers to advance, instead of just winning covers by placement? Where does luck/RNG play into it, with token draws? Should the best rosters be owned by the luckiest/those willing to spend the most, and therefore entitle them to the highest ranks as well?

Again, the existence of other problems isn't an excuse. Is the game too RNG heavy? Sure.

As for the rest, should a team that can afford a better car have an advantage at the Indy 500? Does a team that can afford a better weight room and training facility have an advantage?

And, I think with a lot of that, there's a natural level of equalization that happens that isn't in effect here. To even get to the 500, you already have a good car, and someone in a Ford pinto isn't in the race. NFL teams have good training facilities, and aren't playing against high school teams. But in MPQ, early transitioning players to 5* rosters, people who are unaware throwing fights is expected or even exists and those that do all can end up in the same competition. So, I'm just as mad, it perhaps more mad at the devs for allowing that than people exploiting the system to their advantage.

Bossblack

People who against cupcakes should skip all seed teams. Skip them until you find a human player that is not a cup cake.

Edit: Did not mean "Human Player" but a target that is actually a real life player's roster.

fmftint

Bossblack wrote:

People who against cupcakes should skip all seed teams. Skip them until you find a human player that is not a cup cake.

There are no human opponents, ever

lukewin

Jamie Madrox wrote:

They're the MPQ equivalent of up up down down left right left right B A Start. Sure you're "beating the game", but you're not really playing it or challenging yourself. You're using a defect in the game to play it in a way not intended by the developers.

That said, cupcakes are just another example of the the players working around a broken system that needs an overhaul. Characters being released too quickly, ISO being in too short of supply to level characters, 5* characters being unevenly awarded to players and then so overpowered that they've broken the game. All of these are reasons why cupcakes (and shield hopping) exist.

I think I am playing the game, which involves matching gems and using my roster against an AI. I'm challenging myself to get covers, taking on the RNG and the cover dilution. Everyone plays for different reasons, so it's pretty difficult to please everyone. Some play for progression, some play for rank, some play for both. There's really no way to cater to everyone, when everyone's playing for different goals.

Slight tangent, I hope everyone against cupcakes, is also against using bracket count threads/rooms to join a fresh PVE bracket. That information is crowd-sourced and is "a defect in the game to play it in a way not intended by the developers." Pretty sure the developers want people joining at 999 and don't care about people playing for rank. If they did care about people playing for rank, they'd include a counter on the time slices, so you could make an informed decision to hop in or not.

firethorne

lukewin wrote:

Slight tangent, I hope everyone against cupcakes, is also against using bracket count threads/rooms to join a fresh PVE bracket. That information is crowd-sourced and is "a defect in the game to play it in a way not intended by the developers." Pretty sure the developers want people joining at 999 and don't care about people playing for rank. If they did care about people playing for rank, they'd include a counter on the time slices, so you could make an informed decision to hop in or not.

Against it? I didn't even know such an exploit existed.

simonsez

firethorne wrote:

As for the rest, should a team that can afford a better car have an advantage at the Indy 500?

You're implying that the best rosters aren't still winning PvP. You're wrong.

LeRoy

I agree with fm; I hope that all those "against" are skipping the seed teams since they are the equivalent of the devs baking low value cc. I also don't use Line to coordinate; I just find a cc when its out, and I usually don't have too much difficulty finding at least a few of them. Sure, I could pour effort into chat rooms to hit 1300 every time but I just don't feel like it and as a result I accept that I'll never be an elite level player (hey, I have a 3/1/3 Surfer, ha!). I'm not sure why an act of altruism to assist other players in clawing through difficult transitions is seen as some betrayal of the spirit of the game though. Hazing is against the law, and the typical justification for such behavior is some form of "well, we had to to do it." That doesn't mean it was okay or good though. The transitions (at each level) are hard and they suck, but I don't see much maturity in being indignant because someone else is trying to make life easier for others.

On a side not, I'm not sure that I buy the "throwing matches" analogy. Let's be honest, we're not competing head-to-head in any capacity. We're relying on a very deficient form of AI to play defense for us. We're not doing the playing, and the AI in question is so terrible it can't recognize easy match 5s or effectively use about half of the character abilities in the game (I'm looking at you old Vision!).

lukewin

firethorne wrote:

Again, the existence of other problems isn't an excuse.
...So, I'm just as mad, it perhaps more mad at the devs for allowing that than people exploiting the system to their advantage.

Agreed, but why not make the best of a bad situation? I've enjoyed the game a lot more since I've started eating cupcakes. It takes a bit more time and effort and outside coordination, but the rewards are definitely worth it. I'm using the same, if not less, in game resources, to get more out of them.

I think if everyone was playing the game with no outside coordination or communication at all, a lot of people would've left the game a long time ago. One of the greatest resources about MPQ is the players/community that play it. I can't find fault in another way to work with that community (cupcakes) to enhance that community (rosters/rewards).

entrailbucket

I'm in favor of cupcakes. They're a necessary crutch for people who don't have high-level rosters yet. Our alliance doesn't use them, because we are all pretty far along, and we're good enough at the game that we don't need them. But I know that for a lot of other players, beating a strong team (even if you have your own high level characters) is just too hard! So I don't blame them for scoring so high by exclusively fighting baby-level teams. How else could they do it?