Simulator Basics

NorthernPolarity

Lyrian wrote:

radav wrote:

Have they explained why they've decided to use this system? Clearly some people are able to run this stuff. If I didn't happen to be fortunate enough to have a Classic Spidey with 5 blue, I would be getting completely trashed in these fights. Once they do nerf him if they keep these same difficulty of fights I would love to know how you would beat these without him. The game is really fun until you get to the point where you have to use what I would consider cheese tactics to try and win. Devs please, please, please look at this stuff, once the levels of the mobs get to 180+ they become near impossible to win without a ton of luck and this is not in any way fun.

And in your response lies the core problem here with the PvE game at the moment.

The devs are trying to create a standardized difficulty for PvE across the board. This works very well for low-level rosters, but is still quite broken on mid-high end.

You are **not** supposed to win against fights 50+ levels against you in most situations, short of lucky board rolls and superior roster management. However, (yes, dead horse incoming) the mid-high PvE game is completely broken because of Spidey 5-blue. In theory, if no one can beat the 180+ mobs because they can't be perpetually stunlocked, then the mobs levels will never get that high. The devs likely wanted the high-level PvE to be a contest of who can manage encounters at around 150-160ish the best. The 230s are likely meant to be in the territory of full 4**** range.

If you read between the lines, there are quite a few signals that the devs are moving render the 150+ fights much more difficult and risky to even attempt. With the implementation of the Power Shift with the upcoming patch this week, you can bet Spidey will at bat for a funbalancing post haste. The devs had to get the respec system in place first to avoid another Rags and Thorverine disaster. With respec in place, they can move forward with retuning Spidey.

Other signs of slowing down and adding risk to the game from the R48 notes can be derived from the retirement of the rainbow boots and the +3 AP boosts as well. The replacement stackable +1 AP boosts is giant nerf to boost effectiveness. Want that +3 Green/Black AP boost to ensure Patch's Berserker Rage goes off early? Sure... that's 3 +1 Green/Black boosts, and that is all you can boost for the entire round. 1 or 2 +1 boosts are meaningless, short of removing the fractional match requirement on moves (Ex: +1 boost for a 10 AP move to only require 3 matches instead of 4).

Take away the alpha effect of boosts and Spidey stunlock, and the game gets much, much risker. Hope you didn't get a bad board roll or the AI pulls off a miracle cascade in the second turn. Otherwise, there are going to be many more losses ahead in most player's future.

You misinterpreted the boosts change. To quote IceIX,

IceIX wrote:

donnbobhardy wrote:

Also, does stacking a boost mean that you can use (for example) 8 of the same boost while still using 3 different boosts? Or does it mean that you can use the same boost in all 3 slots?

Still three slots, still 3 different Boosts. Some Boosts will allow you to stack them on that slot though. So you could have say (in current Boost numbers terms), a +60% Red/Yellow damage 3x stacked slot, +6 Blue/Purple Starting AP slot, and a +100% H.A.M.M.E.R. damage slot.

EDIT: Whoops, was supposed to be +60% damage, not AP.

All this boost change is doing is giving you the option to use up your boosts at a finer granularity. That is, instead of using a +3 blue/purple AP boost, you can use 1 +1 blue/purple, 2 +1 blue/purple, or +3 blue/purple. Stackable meant that you can have 3 of the same boosts in the SAME slot, so you can still use 3 different types of boosts, and up to 3 of each type.

Your other points make perfect sense though. I actually kind of like this added risk to the game. With the simulator PvE and villain only PvP, I'm finding myself having to use a ton of more characters and having to put a lot more effort in spreading out my play sessions in order to maximize health pack usage and getting max points, which is an interesting change in pace from just joining at the end of a tournament and infinitely grinding my way to the top.

Unknown

bonfire01 wrote:

Lyrian wrote:

radav wrote:

You are **not** supposed to win against fights 50+ levels against you in most situations, short of lucky board rolls and superior roster management. However, (yes, dead horse incoming) the mid-high PvE game is completely broken because of Spidey 5-blue. In theory, if no one can beat the 180+ mobs because they can't be perpetually stunlocked, then the mobs levels will never get that high. The devs likely wanted the high-level PvE to be a contest of who can manage encounters at around 150-160ish the best. The 230s are likely meant to be in the territory of full 4**** range.

The trouble is those are the only fights you get! Instead of a matter of abusing Spideys blue ability these PvE events will be all about gaming the system to maximize how many points you can get from every single fight and doing as few fights as possible. Seems strange to me for them to incentivise playing less of their game....

For the record, I think buffing 3*** characters is game-breaking for events - see current 200% boosted CMags; Hulk and Doom boosted later this week will be just as bad.

Also, there is a very significant problem (in my eyes) where players capable of clearing Hard Mode are artificially inflating levels on Normal Mode for everyone else. To win their main brackets, the high end players have to clear out the Normal sub, which in turn inflates the "global" levels on Normal for everyone else. This is unresolvable for this event, but it will be interesting to see how the devs address this issue in the future.

Unknown

You don't need to touch normal mode to win the main bracket.

But given the ISO bonus for first completion, plus the big ISO reward, everyone is going to attempt an easy bracket anyway.

Unknown

jozier wrote:

You don't need to touch normal mode to win the main bracket.

But given the ISO bonus for first completion, plus the big ISO reward, everyone is going to attempt an easy bracket anyway.

Top 5 in normal and hard. While I don't need normal at all, ill do both, like you, get as much ISO as I can get
Plus, there's the tokens from normal to use (will prob suck, but it's a shot at something good).

Unknown

jozier wrote:

You don't need to touch normal mode to win the main bracket.

But given the ISO bonus for first completion, plus the big ISO reward, everyone is going to attempt an easy bracket anyway.

I think there should have been a lock-out on Normal, if you elected to do Hard. I.e. You can only do one or the other. Make it a risk / reward scenario - likely your only chance of winning / placing high in the main bracket would be to target Hard. So do you go for that, with the tough battles that come, or do you elect for the 'safety' of normal, the ISO and sub-bracket rewards, but give up on the chance at Psylocke?

I think this would have had the desired effect - the high end players would still play Hard, as they want Psylocke for entry into whatever comes next. The 'normal' bracket should then scale more calmly, because it's mid to low end players who are in it.

As the subs are 2.5 days long, when the new ones launch you should be able to make your choice again. So, if you tried Hard the first time but it was too much, do Normal the second time - and vice versa.

Unknown

Meh maybe I'm biased. I remember the first PVE event. I could only do a quarter of the missions maybe. I got smoked by level 60 goons, and forget the villain battles. So I fought what I could, saved ISO, got covers, and moved my way up.

All the complaints about this PVE seem to be "I CAN'T COMPLETE EVERY SINGLE MISSION THIS ISN'T FAIR."

Well, fine? You can't complete every mission, too bad, improve your team slowly and try it next time. Seems like a lot of whining over a mechanic that everyone has to deal with when they start, but people want instant gratification.

It would be like asking someone to lower the difficult for you on a traditional video game. Sometimes you just aren't good enough yet.

Unknown

Thanks for the clarification, Northern, I missed that post from IceIX somehow.

Still... red flags are being raised here.

In his example that you could in theory use an entire stack of boosts in a single slot. In reality, though, how many can you buy from an ISO purchase? Still 3? Wouldn't that be the limiting factor here as you can only buy boosts when completely out of them? And at what costs? (I think IceIX tossed some hypothetical numbers around somewhere, but will have to see their real costs in action for a fair judgement)

So, we had the rainbow +3 AP boost, which was downgraded to 3 of each of the two-color +3 AP boosts (HP nerf), which is now downgraded to 9 boosts (3 * 3(1+) of each two-color boost) to achieve the same effect as well as losing all of the boost slots for anything else.

Not good.

Unknown

allorin wrote:

jozier wrote:

You don't need to touch normal mode to win the main bracket.

But given the ISO bonus for first completion, plus the big ISO reward, everyone is going to attempt an easy bracket anyway.

I think there should have been a lock-out on Normal, if you elected to do Hard. I.e. You can only do one or the other. Make it a risk / reward scenario - likely your only chance of winning / placing high in the main bracket would be to target Hard. So do you go for that, with the tough battles that come, or do you elect for the 'safety' of normal, the ISO and sub-bracket rewards, but give up on the chance at Psylocke?

I think this would have had the desired effect - the high end players would still play Hard, as they want Psylocke for entry into whatever comes next. The 'normal' bracket should then scale more calmly, because it's mid to low end players who are in it.

As the subs are 2.5 days long, when the new ones launch you should be able to make your choice again. So, if you tried Hard the first time but it was too much, do Normal the second time - and vice versa.

This is a really good idea. I'm having lots of fun in this 1 though. I still can't bring myself to purchase ISO even at the discount but I might get some hp for a GWBS cover and a couple roster slots.

NorthernPolarity

Lyrian wrote:

Thanks for the clarification, Northern, I missed that post from IceIX somehow.

Still... red flags are being raised here.

In his example that you could in theory use an entire stack of boosts in a single slot. In reality, though, how many can you buy from an ISO purchase? Still 3? Wouldn't that be the limiting factor here as you can only buy boosts when completely out of them? And at what costs? (I think IceIX tossed some hypothetical numbers around somewhere, but will have to see their real costs in action for a fair judgement)

So, we had the rainbow +3 AP boost, which was downgraded to 3 of each of the two-color +3 AP boosts (HP nerf), which is now downgraded to 9 boosts (3 * 3(1+) of each two-color boost) to achieve the same effect as well as losing all of the boost slots for anything else.

Not good.

I really don't think that this update was intended to be a major change to the boost system. I believe IceIX also said that the costs of the boosts would stay roughly the same (so that 9 +1 boosts costs the same as 3 +3 boosts in terms of iso), so I wouldn't worry too much about that. In terms of actually buying the boosts, this is an interesting problem in that you may want to buy boosts even if you aren't completely out of them once the changes are implemented. If they didn't implement a fix to this problem, I would assume that it's more of a technical oversight than a deliberate omission. Based off of IceIX's comments, I really don't see this feature as changing anything except allowing users greater control over how many boosts they want to use, and I think it should be viewed as a quality of life improvement (unless they really screw something up).

Dragon_Nexus

Lyrian wrote:

bonfire01 wrote:

Lyrian wrote:

radav wrote:

You are **not** supposed to win against fights 50+ levels against you in most situations, short of lucky board rolls and superior roster management. However, (yes, dead horse incoming) the mid-high PvE game is completely broken because of Spidey 5-blue. In theory, if no one can beat the 180+ mobs because they can't be perpetually stunlocked, then the mobs levels will never get that high. The devs likely wanted the high-level PvE to be a contest of who can manage encounters at around 150-160ish the best. The 230s are likely meant to be in the territory of full 4**** range.

The trouble is those are the only fights you get! Instead of a matter of abusing Spideys blue ability these PvE events will be all about gaming the system to maximize how many points you can get from every single fight and doing as few fights as possible. Seems strange to me for them to incentivise playing less of their game....

For the record, I think buffing 3*** characters is game-breaking for events - see current 200% boosted CMags; Hulk and Doom boosted later this week will be just as bad.

Also, there is a very significant problem (in my eyes) where players capable of clearing Hard Mode are artificially inflating levels on Normal Mode for everyone else. To win their main brackets, the high end players have to clear out the Normal sub, which in turn inflates the "global" levels on Normal for everyone else. This is unresolvable for this event, but it will be interesting to see how the devs address this issue in the future.

I think there's a very simple solution. Introduce a level cap.
There's a 230 cap for hard mode, why not (for example) a level 130 cap for normal modes? No enemies can be more than level 130.

Unknown

jozier wrote:

Meh maybe I'm biased. I remember the first PVE event. I could only do a quarter of the missions maybe. I got smoked by level 60 goons, and forget the villain battles. So I fought what I could, saved ISO, got covers, and moved my way up.

All the complaints about this PVE seem to be "I CAN'T COMPLETE EVERY SINGLE MISSION THIS ISN'T FAIR."

Well, fine? You can't complete every mission, too bad, improve your team slowly and try it next time. Seems like a lot of whining over a mechanic that everyone has to deal with when they start, but people want instant gratification.

It would be like asking someone to lower the difficult for you on a traditional video game. Sometimes you just aren't good enough yet.

+1 to you sir.

If you can't complete a mission, upgrade your roster and try again. If you can't then, well, tey for the next PvE. I remember, thick as thieves was the first PvE I was able to do every mission and I earned that, devs didn't lower the levels.

The people tha **** and **** just annoy me. You shouldn't be able to beat every level out of the gate anyway.

Eddiemon

Lyrian wrote:

Thanks for the clarification, Northern, I missed that post from IceIX somehow.

Still... red flags are being raised here.

In his example that you could in theory use an entire stack of boosts in a single slot. In reality, though, how many can you buy from an ISO purchase? Still 3? Wouldn't that be the limiting factor here as you can only buy boosts when completely out of them? And at what costs? (I think IceIX tossed some hypothetical numbers around somewhere, but will have to see their real costs in action for a fair judgement)

So, we had the rainbow +3 AP boost, which was downgraded to 3 of each of the two-color +3 AP boosts (HP nerf), which is now downgraded to 9 boosts (3 * 3(1+) of each two-color boost) to achieve the same effect as well as losing all of the boost slots for anything else.

Not good.

They want boosts to be well, boosts. Too many people were using the old versions as baseline, then complaining that they had no ISO and their rankings were all messed up.

So if you're looking at it and thinking you won't be able to use it very often then they have accomplished their mission.

Eddiemon

jozier wrote:

Meh maybe I'm biased. I remember the first PVE event. I could only do a quarter of the missions maybe. I got smoked by level 60 goons, and forget the villain battles. So I fought what I could, saved ISO, got covers, and moved my way up.

All the complaints about this PVE seem to be "I CAN'T COMPLETE EVERY SINGLE MISSION THIS ISN'T FAIR."

Well, fine? You can't complete every mission, too bad, improve your team slowly and try it next time. Seems like a lot of whining over a mechanic that everyone has to deal with when they start, but people want instant gratification.

It would be like asking someone to lower the difficult for you on a traditional video game. Sometimes you just aren't good enough yet.

I remember when the number if regular tokens was what I played the event for. I placed nowhere, but got maybe 10 useful covers, a stack of ISO and a few progression rewards.

And I wasn't even playing full freetard, I bought the odd spidey token when he was high probability.

Unknown

Definitely agree choosing to do hard mode should lock normal for you for that sub. Can see why they didn't implement that, because the difficulty's all over the place and it would've caused even more complaints, but still.

jozier wrote:

You don't need to touch normal mode to win the main bracket.

But given the ISO bonus for first completion, plus the big ISO reward, everyone is going to attempt an easy bracket anyway.

You don't need to, and you can easily just whip through to the challenge mission for the ISO and leave it alone otherwise, but depending on multiplier (since they seem to be separate) clearing the top two or three stacks from hard can leave you with easy missions worth more points. At that stage it'd be a bit crazy not to do them.

Meh maybe I'm biased. I remember the first PVE event. I could only do a quarter of the missions maybe. I got smoked by level 60 goons, and forget the villain battles. So I fought what I could, saved ISO, got covers, and moved my way up.

All the complaints about this PVE seem to be "I CAN'T COMPLETE EVERY SINGLE MISSION THIS ISN'T FAIR."

Well, fine? You can't complete every mission, too bad, improve your team slowly and try it next time. Seems like a lot of whining over a mechanic that everyone has to deal with when they start, but people want instant gratification.

It would be like asking someone to lower the difficult for you on a traditional video game. Sometimes you just aren't good enough yet.

That would be stupid, yes, and it's exactly what the game's doing.

Unknown

jozier wrote:

Meh maybe I'm biased. I remember the first PVE event. I could only do a quarter of the missions maybe. I got smoked by level 60 goons, and forget the villain battles. So I fought what I could, saved ISO, got covers, and moved my way up.

All the complaints about this PVE seem to be "I CAN'T COMPLETE EVERY SINGLE MISSION THIS ISN'T FAIR."

Well, fine? You can't complete every mission, too bad, improve your team slowly and try it next time. Seems like a lot of whining over a mechanic that everyone has to deal with when they start, but people want instant gratification.

It would be like asking someone to lower the difficult for you on a traditional video game. Sometimes you just aren't good enough yet.

I would agree in general but I don't see how you get your roster to a point where you can comfortably take on 3x lvl230 without the crutch that is Classic Spidey. Are you hoping 3 lvl 141 heroes will stand up to the 5k+ damage abilities that get thrown at you (lvl 230 dinosaur does a 5.2k ish bite on 6 green AP so that's 2 whole matches which means one lucky cascade, too many green matches to block them all or the AI getting the jungle environmental off and you get munched HARD) or are you thinking the 2 4* heroes at lvl 200 (who are both kinda ****) will do the trick?

Having the encounters scale up to 230 if you actually enjoy playing enough to bother doing the missions more than once per reset just doesn't work as a mechanic IMO.

Unknown

Is no one doing Daken in the desert? I wonder why.

bonfire01 wrote:

I would agree in general but I don't see how you get your roster to a point where you can comfortably take on 3x lvl230 without the crutch that is Classic Spidey.

I haven't used Spider-Man for 230 Bag Lady or for Devil Dino yet. I'd rather have AP suppression against the Devil Dino match because he's harmless without 6 green and the dudes with him die reasonably easily - granted, if Bullseye manages to do his thing that can bog you down. The buffed tanks can survive 5.2k damage, but only really from max HP.

turul

Starting to get all-230 to me too...

Unknown

Veracity wrote:

Is no one doing Daken in the desert? I wonder why.

bonfire01 wrote:

I would agree in general but I don't see how you get your roster to a point where you can comfortably take on 3x lvl230 without the crutch that is Classic Spidey.

I haven't used Spider-Man for 230 Bag Lady or for Devil Dino yet. I'd rather have AP suppression against the Devil Dino match because he's harmless without 6 green and the dudes with him die reasonably easily - granted, if Bullseye manages to do his thing that can bog you down. The buffed tanks can survive 5.2k damage, but only really from max HP.

The daken in the desert isn't too bad, beaten it about 4-5 times myself, just keep him stunned and you're good.

Unknown

beemand2g wrote:

should be able to get the progression at 50'000 if you haven't hit there already, think it was a patch yellow. I don't need patch as he is level'd to 141 so sold my cover for the iso and hero points

Isn't the average match divide out to about 350, 400 points, meaning that's something like 100 matches?
I might get there, maybe. I doubt it. I'm at 15k atm, I think. I just don't have that much time for this game, hah.

Edit: Nevermind, it's more like 200, meaning 200 matches or so. Hahahaha. Well, maybe. Probably not!

Unknown

if you can do the hard mode the last stage is usually worth 2000+ points alone