Who should be next in line for balancing?

KaioShinDE

kensterr wrote:

A damage dealer + healer = Dr. Strange

She can only deal damage in teams that have no one else with higher match damage on purple, blue and black. Once you move up to 3* she quickly becomes completely non-damaging. And the damage she does currently has already been significantly reduced after the Wolvie nerf.

Don't touch her before there are healing alternatives. It would break the game entirely. She is the only reason 2* players can do anything in this game.

Unknown

Ok I feel like I'm saying the same thing again but people are coming back saying the exact sane things as every1 who was already here.

@every1 who says buff others
They've already shown where they want power levels. OBW is over it. Bringing 2-3 more covers to her level just creates further imbalance.

@every1 who talks about more healers
Phantron and I have both stated repeatedly that her black and blue are fine as is, if anything, her black could use a slight buff. I suggested changing count down timer part to a steal +1 all ap. Her pink is what is out if hand. It should be brought down to where at max level it steals up to 2 of all hp. 1 of each at previous levels.

This doesn't nerf her that much. She still has plenty of ap and heal skill. It simply keeps her from swiping ridiculous amounts of ap in 1 swoop.

Y'all can defend her all you want but this is like a Ragnarok Repeat. You're either to blind to see the inevitable or you aren't.

Unknown

Psykopathic wrote:

Y'all can defend her all you want but this is like a Ragnarok Repeat. You're either to blind to see the inevitable or you aren't.

I feel like this embodies the problem with the internet. Way to try and shut down what passes for intelligent conversation on the internet. For those who don't agree with the gospel of Psyko, feel free to keep discussing.

They have shown where they want the power level to be, and she's certainly on the fence, otherwise there wouldn't be such impassioned arguments both ways. For myself, I don't believe she's over the limit b/c there are multiple strategies for dealing with her - deny her purple, don't match purple yourself (thus forcing her to make 3-4 purple matches exclusively), use your own abilities before she can steal thus reducing the efficacy, or just flat out burn her down b/c her health pool is low. Usually it's a combination of all these things.

I rarely see an Aggressive Recon or a heal in PVP unless the board is truly unfavorable to me or I make a dumb match that sets up the opponent (in which case it doesn't really matter who the opponent is using - I lost to myself, not the AI).

Unknown

Riggy wrote:

Psykopathic wrote:

Y'all can defend her all you want but this is like a Ragnarok Repeat. You're either to blind to see the inevitable or you aren't.

I feel like this embodies the problem with the internet. Way to try and shut down what passes for intelligent conversation on the internet. For those who don't agree with the gospel of Psyko, feel free to keep discussing.

They have shown where they want the power level to be, and she's certainly on the fence, otherwise there wouldn't be such impassioned arguments both ways. For myself, I don't believe she's over the limit b/c there are multiple strategies for dealing with her - deny her purple, don't match purple yourself (thus forcing her to make 3-4 purple matches exclusively), use your own abilities before she can steal thus reducing the efficacy, or just flat out burn her down b/c her health pool is low. Usually it's a combination of all these things.

I rarely see an Aggressive Recon or a heal in PVP unless the board is truly unfavorable to me or I make a dumb match that sets up the opponent (in which case it doesn't really matter who the opponent is using - I lost to myself, not the AI).

There were just as many people defending ragnarok as there are OBW. Doesn't change the fact that he needed nerfed.

It's not shutting down intelligent conversation. It's stating the obvious. You can argue your point as much as you like and I'll argue mine as much as I like. Eventually the craziness if her purple will be balanced.

Anyways, my point in all that was if your gonna argue at least use a different argument than the 1st 10 people.

Unknown

And i still say, nerfing is not necessary. I want to see characters being buffed . . NOT nerfed. The only reason she is such a" huge "problem now is because they f*cked Thor,Wolvie,and Rags up. Imagine trying to face level 230 maggia without obw as is. They would generate SO much ap. And then you would want maggia nerfed. Im more concerned about moonstone being buffed, characters getting 3 powers, and hawkeyes avoid than obw.

I thought we would have agreed that nerfing isn't the best option for anyone by now.

Unknown

Psykopathic wrote:

Ok I feel like I'm saying the same thing again but people are coming back saying the exact sane things as every1 who was already here.

That's because they're right, and you aren't. If OBW joins the funbalancing list, the devs are going to balance all the fun right out of this game and cost themselves their jobs in the process. There at least a dozen 2 and 3 star characters that I hate to face. OBW isn't one of them. When I see she's on the enemy team, I smile because it's a guaranteed simple kill. If everyone her strength and higher gets nerfed, it's game over for MPQ.

Unknown

Unity wrote:

And i still say, nerfing is not necessary. I want to see characters being buffed . . NOT nerfed. The only reason she is such a" huge "problem now is because they f*cked Thor,Wolvie,and Rags up. Imagine trying to face level 230 maggia without obw as is. They would generate SO much ap. And then you would want maggia nerfed

Ok so, I am in favor of buffing over nerfing. I also am in favor of not having things that are crazy OP.

As I mentioned before though there is a range of power levels that have been made acceptable. Some covers are below that range. Some covers are above that range. Sometimes it's individual powers. In this particular area of the argument it is OBW's pink. Whether we like buffing or nerfing, the pink ability is above the power levels upper limit. The project has already been started with rags Loki thorverine and is continuing.

Loki
X force wolvie
M mags
2* hawkeye
And a few more still need some buffing.

Lots of characters need 3rd powers. I consider all those buffs.

Not much stands out anymore that is OP other than spidey / mags blue and OBW pink.

R.I.P. Spidey. I've been mourning for him in advance for a month. Makes me sad. But it's what's gotta happen.

Unknown

Marquoz wrote:

Psykopathic wrote:

Ok I feel like I'm saying the same thing again but people are coming back saying the exact sane things as every1 who was already here.

That's because they're right, and you aren't. If OBW joins the funbalancing list, the devs are going to balance all the fun right out of this game and cost themselves their jobs in the process. There at least a dozen 2 and 3 star characters that I hate to face. OBW isn't one of them. When I see she's on the enemy team, I smile because it's a guaranteed simple kill. If everyone her strength and higher gets nerfed, it's game over for MPQ.

Everyone said that about every other characters before they got nerfed also. No one would lose any jobs or any of that other garbage your spillin. Hehe.

It doesn't have to be looked at as a nerf. It's a "balance". You knock her pink down to reality. You buff her black and toss her an extra 200-300 health. Not that big of a deal

Unknown

I see both sides of the issue. It is a fact that OBW's purple has an outsized effect given it's AP costs and what other support characters can do (especially at a 2 * level).

BUT, that alone is not a competition-breaking aspect like Ragnorak had. His pre-nerf abilities allowed users to win in less than 60-90 seconds (especially in lightning rounds) which had a tremendous effect on the competitive balance of the game. A similar situation was for Classic Storm (to a lesser degree).

-- // --

OBW does not have that same kind of damning effect on the game. She's just very, very useful. Which is something all the characters should be (but aren't, especially at the 2* level) and her setup shouldn't be punished due to it.

Unknown

Toxicadam wrote:

I see both sides of the issue. It is a fact that OBW's purple has an outsized effect given it's AP costs and what other support characters can do (especially at a 2 * level).

BUT, that alone is not a competition-breaking aspect like Ragnorak had. His pre-nerf abilities allowed users to win in less than 60-90 seconds (especially in lightning rounds) which had a tremendous effect on the competitive balance of the game. A similar situation was for Classic Storm (to a lesser degree).

-- // --

OBW does not have that same kind of damning effect on the game. She's just very, very useful. Which is something all the characters should be (but aren't, especially at the 2* level) and her setup shouldn't be punished due to it.

Yeah I realize it's a bad comparison in some ways. The level of OPness of OBW's purple isn't on nearly the level of pre nerf ragnarok lightning rounds. Not what I'm trying to imply. There's only a few points to compare to in such a new game and I chose ragnarok because i could see it coming way in advance just like I see this coming now.

Unknown

It's a chain effect that was created after nerfing storm. EVERY time you nerf someone, it gets another character noticed and then people want that character nerfed. I really think they should buff the characters that need buffing first to see if it balances the game. If not then you nerf.

Unknown

Unity wrote:

It's a chain effect that was created after nerfing storm. EVERY time you nerf someone, it gets another character noticed and then people want that character nerfed. I really think they should buff the characters that need bufging first to see if it balances the game. If not then you nerf.

Now this is a new argument I think. Haven't really had any1 say that. I can kind of see the point with chain nerfing. I think they have done pretty decent so far though. Rags and Loki maybe have been a tad to far but I'm hoping the 3rd abilities balance them. I mentioned at some point that I personally would prioritize 3rd abilities over everything, especially with respec coming.

Unknown

Unity wrote:

It's a chain effect that was created after nerfing storm. EVERY time you nerf someone, it gets another character noticed and then people want that character nerfed. I really think they should buff the characters that need buffing first to see if it balances the game. If not then you nerf.

Exactly. If you constantly nerf the top five, eventually you work your way through every character. Long before that point hits, the game dies.

(And I said "top five" for a reason. The top five characters in the great character forum thread that ranked every toon have all been either nerfed or scheduled for nerfs. Now certain posters are taking aim at the second tier. The process never stops.)

Unknown

Psykopathic wrote:

Marquoz wrote:

Psykopathic wrote:

Ok I feel like I'm saying the same thing again but people are coming back saying the exact sane things as every1 who was already here.

That's because they're right, and you aren't. If OBW joins the funbalancing list, the devs are going to balance all the fun right out of this game and cost themselves their jobs in the process. There at least a dozen 2 and 3 star characters that I hate to face. OBW isn't one of them. When I see she's on the enemy team, I smile because it's a guaranteed simple kill. If everyone her strength and higher gets nerfed, it's game over for MPQ.

Everyone said that about every other characters before they got nerfed also. No one would lose any jobs or any of that other garbage your spillin. Hehe.

It's not garbage, it's fact. I've quit many other games after major nerfs to characters or powers I enjoyed, and a bunch of those games closed down not long after. It is very possible to nerf the fun right out your game and kill it in the interests of "balance."

Unknown

Psykopathic wrote:

Anyways, my point in all that was if your gonna argue at least use a different argument than the 1st 10 people.

But you're ignoring and/or discrediting the arguments without actually trying to counter them. If you really think her purple is OP, then provide a counter-argument as to how it's mathematically unlikely to be able to burn her out before she steals your stuff. Otherwise, the statement I quoted above shows you presenting your opinion as fact while simultaneously belittling those who disagree with your opinion.

If I look at the board and see a ton of purple, and I split the purple matches with her, or if I fail to concentrate my matches on a single color, or if I fail to match a color she doesn't steal, or if I fail to actually check what her purple is before starting the match, then I may be in trouble when she starts accumulating purple.

Here's my rationale - feel free to ignore and belittle it as you did with everyone who disagrees with you.

Assuming purple at 3 (3/5/5), she takes 3 purple matches to activate. If I make 3 single-color matches as well, then activating it net costs her 5 AP or 2 turns. Big whoop.
Assuming purple at 4 (4/5/4 isn't uncommon), she takes 4 purple matches to activate. With 4 other single-color matches, I can activate most abilities I care about in the early game, again brunting her effect.
In a mid-game scenario, you have to be pretty blind to how much purple the AI is racking up, or you have to be making some horrific matches that you couldn't use your own AP before she fires.

Let's also assume that the vast majority of initial board setups are neutral (and assume that there's a bell curve, so an equal number of super-**** and super-awesome setups; whether that's true is a different debate). As first player, you always get to control the board a bit, which helps. If as soon as the board sets up, if you've checked the opponent's abilities and tweaked your team as needed, and if you make intelligent matches controlling the board as able through matches, then her purple takes a lot longer to activate and she should die before it ever resolves.

But all of this is looking at her in a vacuum, which is disingenuous. Let's put her on a team of balanced characters (obviously with her on a team with someone like spidey, you may have issues, but that's b/c of Spidey's blue, not her purple). So pick some characters, and show why she's a powerhouse instead of support. I can't come up with any characters that make her a powerhouse b/c none of them generate purple for her. The best you can hope for is to say that Storm's green (either Storm) can generate purple for her, but that's also a pretty high AP ability and thus you should see it coming a mile away.

I can't see any logical scenario wherein she is the center of the problem. The only "reasonably good" argument to be made is that she's un-fun to play against b/c she keeps you from playing the game - match-3's are cute and all but it's the abilities that bring flavor to the team you present. AP-stealing makes that part of the game obsolete. That's about as "good" of an argument as saying "characters dying means I can't use that characters abilities and that's not fun either - nerf dying".

Unknown

Riggy wrote:

Psykopathic wrote:

Let's also assume that the vast majority of initial board setups are neutral (and assume that there's a bell curve, so an equal number of super-**** and super-awesome setups; whether that's true is a different debate). As first player, you always get to control the board a bit, which helps. If as soon as the board sets up, if you've checked the opponent's abilities and tweaked your team as needed, and if you make intelligent matches controlling the board as able through matches, then her purple takes a lot longer to activate and she should die before it ever resolves.

That's certainly the case when I fight her, and I fight her a LOT since I actively look for teams that contain her because she's so easy to kill. She practically never gets off either an aggressive recon or her heal, whatever it's called. Long before accumulating enough purple or blue, she's dead. What's the problem? I see none.

Unknown

@riggy

1. Phantron has been providing numerical explanations. I'm not a numbers guy I'm a theory guy.

2. Every1 is looking at it from the perspective of fighting her and specifically with the teams they use.
1a. From an offensive standpoint she obliterates enemies ap stash and fuels your WHOLE team FOR CHEAP.
2a. Think about using a team like ragnarok doctor d and magneto c (less the cheap blue) yes magneto c can 1 hit her but these characters are all very expensive powers. Without a good board her pink can halt everything you try to do while fueling her blue to negate your attacks and fuels enemy attackers. A 2* single handedly turning the tides at lvl 50 against 3x lvl 100+ 3*. It can happen.

3. Some people also see her lvl 3 pink as being better than her lvl 5. I think this also is a problem. People think change means making her obsolete. Instead of thinking of her being made obsolete, think of how the powers could be redone.
Purple - 15ap
Steals 2 of all ap. - 12 lost by them. 12 gained by you. Potentially 24ap turnaround for 15ap
Lvl 2 - costs 1 ap less
Lvl 3 costs 1 ap less. (Every1 will get to this point. Now 13 ap for potential 24ap turnaround.
Lvl 4- costs 1 ap less (now 4 matches instead of either 5 or match 4 pick ups, makes it a decision to gain benefit from moving up)
Lvl 5- now steals up to 3 of all ap (12ap for a potential 36ap turn around. It's still incredible)

This would fit her right into her power level. Make her ability scale properly. With the +1 ap to black I mentioned at lvl 5 it would make it a difficult choice. How does this ruin any fun?

Unknown

When fighting OBW she's equally likely to prioritize blue and black which is harmless compared to her purple, so of course you can usually beat her. That's like saying Magneto classic is balanced because the AI mysteriously doesn't know how to take 20 extra turns with Magnetic Field even though it'd be pretty trivial to do so.

It takes only 2 purple match to do Aggressive Recon level 3 the vast majority of time due to Espionage. If you take the first purple match, Espionage guaranteeds only 2 matches are needed for AR3 and 3 matches for AR4/5. But if you didn't take the first match, she'll usually take it and things are generally worse (could get AR5 with 2 more match 3s potentially if you pick up any purple for any reason). If the AI decides to go for purple, you're not going to be able to stop it effectively unless you have all the purples. The only reason you can fight her reasonably effectively is because the AI doesn't value one color over any other. I'm sure everyone have these games where you just get shut down by AR when she's on defense, and those games don't happen very often so you can just tell yourself that the AI got lucky or you gotten better. But no, the games you lose is just when the AI rolls 'purple' on the 3 colors it can prioritize on OBW. If you can somehow stop a character that only needs 2 matches to do significant chaos, by definition no character is ever a threat. If you can do 3000 damage before 2 matches, you can definitely do 4500 damage before 3 matches, and that pretty much means no one is ever a threat and that damage amount is very generous because getting the 3rd match of a given color usually takes considerably more than 150% the time it takes to get 2 matches.

Unknown

If I see the AI prioritizing purple with OBW, I do the same. She doesn't get to make further matches and dies. The end.

Unknown

Marquoz wrote:

If I see the AI prioritizing purple with OBW, I do the same. She doesn't get to make further matches and dies. The end.

People seem to live in this dream world where they can just deny whatever color the opponent needs, and then also come back and cry about how Devil Dino is way too hard even though all you got to do is deny green.

If you don't have OBW purple is likely a dead color unless you're running Magneto classic. Going on a dead color just so that they can't get purple isn't going to help you.