Who should be next in line for balancing?

Unknown

locked wrote:

Don't tell me about 'general lines' and 'math' and 'correlation between 4, 3, 2 and 1 star abilities'. Because that's bullseye. The only defining feature of 3 stars compared to 2 stars should be their level cap, health, tile damage. As for abilities themselves, they should be as distinctive as possible. Oh and Daredevil is an average character overall, esp. on defense, so please don't take him as a trendsetter. Hood is different than oBW, but not worse, far from it.

That's just like, your opinion, man.

But to be more serious, it is up to the developers to determine what the differences between 1,2,3, and 4 star rarity characters should be.

This thread is taking the normal route discussions about "balancing" go, which doesn't tend to be terribly useful, but I will add my thoughts: A character is OP (or in need of balance) if it is obviously better than other alternatives that are supposed to be roughly equal in power. So the problem with OBW (if there is one) is that she seems to be much more popular than most all other ** characters. Now, whether the answer is to buff other characters or nerf her depends on two things: The first is sheer numbers, if there were 99 other ** characters , then nerfing 1 character is easier than buffing 99 others. The second is how the developers want the game to be played. This is part of why Ragnarok was nerfed, the developers wanted the game to be played slower than Ragnarok was making it be played. Whether or not you agree with the developers' vision is another question.

There are other considerations as well. OBW might be overly popular right now because there aren't enough other utility characters at ** rarity. Maybe if some lesser-used characters like Bag-Man and Moonstone were modified to be more Utility, then we might see some more team diversity.

TL;DR discussion of a character being OP is complicated, has several factors to consider.

over_clocked

Wouldn't you simply agree that a character is OP when teams with that character are guaranteed to beat comparable teams? That's not the case with oBW, quite the opposite.

MarvelMan

locked wrote:

My oBW team gets beaten every time, 100% of the time.......IF YOU LOSE TO OBW YOU JUST GOT UNLUCKY/SCREWED YOURSELF!

locked wrote:

Wouldn't you simply agree that a character is OP when teams with that character are guaranteed to beat comparable teams? That's not the case with oBW, quite the opposite.

Um.....?

Unknown

It's funny that people don't realize a character is overpowered, until they discover how useful they are.

locked wrote:

Wouldn't you simply agree that a character is OP when teams with that character are guaranteed to beat comparable teams? That's not the case with oBW, quite the opposite.

Please elaborate

Unknown

oBW is annoying, Spiderman with 5 blues allows a team to dominate anyone.

Unknown

When I'm deciding if someone should be balanced this is how I go about it.

If this person was to get balanced would I:
A. Give them a buff
B. Give them a nerf
C. Can't decide which way they would go.

All covers should fall into C. Can't decide.

If I look at a cover and I instantly see that it's A.
"Hey this cover sucks I won't use them" they obviously need a buff.

If it's B "hey I bet getting this character will give me a big advantage over the others" you get the picture.


After this initial question is answered I start looking at the details.
Are all skills out of whack or just 1?
If I buff or nerf 1 skill will it cause others to need tweaked.
How far out of line is the skill(s).
What is causing it to be out of line.
Etc etc etc. then make suggestions accordingly.

Unknown

RangoFett wrote:

locked wrote:

Don't tell me about 'general lines' and 'math' and 'correlation between 4, 3, 2 and 1 star abilities'. Because that's bullseye. The only defining feature of 3 stars compared to 2 stars should be their level cap, health, tile damage. As for abilities themselves, they should be as distinctive as possible. Oh and Daredevil is an average character overall, esp. on defense, so please don't take him as a trendsetter. Hood is different than oBW, but not worse, far from it.

That's just like, your opinion, man.

But to be more serious, it is up to the developers to determine what the differences between 1,2,3, and 4 star rarity characters should be.

This thread is taking the normal route discussions about "balancing" go, which doesn't tend to be terribly useful, but I will add my thoughts: A character is OP (or in need of balance) if it is obviously better than other alternatives that are supposed to be roughly equal in power. So the problem with OBW (if there is one) is that she seems to be much more popular than most all other ** characters. Now, whether the answer is to buff other characters or nerf her depends on two things: The first is sheer numbers, if there were 99 other ** characters , then nerfing 1 character is easier than buffing 99 others. The second is how the developers want the game to be played. This is part of why Ragnarok was nerfed, the developers wanted the game to be played slower than Ragnarok was making it be played. Whether or not you agree with the developers' vision is another question.

There are other considerations as well. OBW might be overly popular right now because there aren't enough other utility characters at ** rarity. Maybe if some lesser-used characters like Bag-Man and Moonstone were modified to be more Utility, then we might see some more team diversity.

TL;DR discussion of a character being OP is complicated, has several factors to consider.

Were you around for the C.Storm nerf? C.Storm was overpowered like you wouldn't believe. Everyone was running a C.Storm/Thor/guest lineup. It's better now

Unknown

saints2death wrote:

oBW is annoying, Spiderman with 5 blues allows a team to dominate anyone.

OBW is annoying. I disagree with the dominating part. In the No Holds Barred Tournament I stopped using spiderman because he was slowing me down

Unknown

Yeah...while I don't like what Spiderman allows you to do (particularly in high level PVE, which he has a tendency to trivialize), he certainly doesn't allow you to "dominate" everyone. He allows you an eventual win, but in PVP that's really not so super unbalanced...the time you give up to get a guaranteed win will frequently cost you higher placement. I play with him almost all the time because I favor a conservative, control-based strategy...but I am not as fast as I could be if I were running someone else in his place, and my record (which is modest but not amazing) reflects that.

Unknown

Moon 17 wrote:

Yeah...while I don't like what Spiderman allows you to do (particularly in high level PVE, which he has a tendency to trivialize), he certainly doesn't allow you to "dominate" everyone. He allows you an eventual win, but in PVP that's really not so super unbalanced...the time you give up to get a guaranteed win will frequently cost you higher placement. I play with him almost all the time because I favor a conservative, control-based strategy...but I am not as fast as I could be if I were running someone else in his place, and my record (which is modest but not amazing) reflects that.

Conceptually he needs to do both. Stun and heal. The webs are balance 5-turn stuns and effective heals. If you stun immediately you make it difficult to make yellow matches (because you want the web tiles) so you can't heal.

It also seems they intended more to happen with web-tiles in the concept stage, Venom is the buggest threat to having web stockpiles right now. Before devour was changed, it was one of the more satisfying ways of taking out high levelled opponents.

Unknown

3 blues for a 1-5 turn stun is ridiculously overpowered. It's not even a debate on what is the most overpowered character in this game. The reason oBW is used more than Spidey now, and Thor and Wolvie was use more that Spidey prenerf is because it's much much easier to get 2* covers than 3* covers.

Unknown

saints2death wrote:

3 blues for a 1-5 turn stun is ridiculously overpowered. It's not even a debate on what is the most overpowered character in this game. The reason oBW is used more than Spidey now, and Thor and Wolvie was use more that Spidey prenerf is because it's much much easier to get 2* covers than 3* covers.

You don't make sense man.

5/5 blue Spider Man costs 2 AP for a 1 turn stun. creates a yellow web tile on a basic yellow tile.
Second All tied up costs 2 blue AP but stun is for 2 turns. creates a yellow web tile on a basic yellow tile.
It takes 10 blue AP and 5 available basic yellow tiles on board to get to a 5-turn stun.

it is a lot of work to stun-lock an opponent. It's an entirely different thing to manage an opponent using stun. It takes too long to beat an opponent relying on stun. Spider Man appears to be an effective deterrent. 50 M. Storm, 40 M. Widow, and 50 Iron Man is able to beat a level 100 lineup that includes ragnarok and spider man. Use M. Widow in the same manner that you use Spider Man
Modern Black Widow can stun target for 5 turns, and the other team members for 1 turn for 9 Blue AP, no questions asked.

Unknown

Bugpop wrote:

saints2death wrote:

3 blues for a 1-5 turn stun is ridiculously overpowered. It's not even a debate on what is the most overpowered character in this game. The reason oBW is used more than Spidey now, and Thor and Wolvie was use more that Spidey prenerf is because it's much much easier to get 2* covers than 3* covers.

You don't make sense man.

5/5 blue Spider Man costs 2 AP for a 1 turn stun. creates a yellow web tile on a basic yellow tile.
Second All tied up costs 2 blue AP but stun is for 2 turns. creates a yellow web tile on a basic yellow tile.
It takes 10 blue AP and 5 available basic yellow tiles on board to get to a 5-turn stun.

it is a lot of work to stun-lock an opponent. It's an entirely different thing to manage an opponent using stun. It takes too long to beat an opponent relying on stun. Spider Man appears to be an effective deterrent. 50 M. Storm, 40 M. Widow, and 50 Iron Man is able to beat a level 100 lineup that includes ragnarok and spider man. Use M. Widow in the same manner that you use Spider Man
Modern Black Widow can stun target for 5 turns, and the other team members for 1 turn for 9 Blue AP, no questions asked.

You're not making any sense. You're acting like Spidey is the only character on the team. You make it seem like Spidey isn't teamed with a heavy hitter on most of these squads. Spidey allows to control the board and stack other colors for the heavy hitters. If it takes you more than a couple minutes to beat someone with Spidey on your team, either your other characters suck or you don't know the premise of the game.

Unknown

Bugpop wrote:

saints2death wrote:

3 blues for a 1-5 turn stun is ridiculously overpowered. It's not even a debate on what is the most overpowered character in this game. The reason oBW is used more than Spidey now, and Thor and Wolvie was use more that Spidey prenerf is because it's much much easier to get 2* covers than 3* covers.

You don't make sense man.

5/5 blue Spider Man costs 2 AP for a 1 turn stun. creates a yellow web tile on a basic yellow tile.
Second All tied up costs 2 blue AP but stun is for 2 turns. creates a yellow web tile on a basic yellow tile.
It takes 10 blue AP and 5 available basic yellow tiles on board to get to a 5-turn stun.

You're getting 15 turns worth (5+4+3+2+1) of stunning that can be spread among three people for that 10 ap, not just 5 turns. And there are almost always 5 free yellows, unless you've got somebody deliberately going after yellows.

Unknown

Bugpop wrote:

saints2death wrote:

3 blues for a 1-5 turn stun is ridiculously overpowered. It's not even a debate on what is the most overpowered character in this game. The reason oBW is used more than Spidey now, and Thor and Wolvie was use more that Spidey prenerf is because it's much much easier to get 2* covers than 3* covers.

You don't make sense man.

5/5 blue Spider Man costs 2 AP for a 1 turn stun. creates a yellow web tile on a basic yellow tile.
Second All tied up costs 2 blue AP but stun is for 2 turns. creates a yellow web tile on a basic yellow tile.
It takes 10 blue AP and 5 available basic yellow tiles on board to get to a 5-turn stun.

it is a lot of work to stun-lock an opponent. It's an entirely different thing to manage an opponent using stun. It takes too long to beat an opponent relying on stun. Spider Man appears to be an effective deterrent. 50 M. Storm, 40 M. Widow, and 50 Iron Man is able to beat a level 100 lineup that includes ragnarok and spider man. Use M. Widow in the same manner that you use Spider Man
Modern Black Widow can stun target for 5 turns, and the other team members for 1 turn for 9 Blue AP, no questions asked.

Comparing Level-40 max 2-ability MWidow with Level-141 max 3-ability Spidey makes a lot of sense =]

Unknown

It seems like this thread has a lot of people who are of the "I heard Spiderman is ovepowered". Yes you heard correctly, but he's not overpowered for the imagined reasons.

Spiderman is always on a team with extremely good offense, because the strategy of a Spiderman team revolves around killing at least one person very fast, and Spiderman does absolutely no offense on his own, so it's up to the other two guys to do the job. Even with maxed blue, it's unrealistic to expect to stun the entire team of 3 people, so you got to get it down to 2 guys and preferably one. You don't necessarily have to be collecting blue early on (though certainly you wouldn't pass up good blue matches) because you're trying to collect offense tiles. Spider-sense is pretty much useless because usually you won't be throwing up any web tiles until one guy is down and the base protection value is decent but hardly game breaking. His heal is also useless in the context of the game because once it can heal enough, it means you got enough web tiles up there to actually stunlock the opposing team so you no longer need the heal in the context of this game. Sure, it'd be very useful for the next game to start at 100% health but you certainly don't need it this game.

One of the oddities about Spiderman is that he becomes more overpowered when the other side also has a Spiderman, because that means any blue you missed becomes web tiles that you can use later, which accelerates your stuns. Yes they might be able to put up a good Spider-sense tile but so can you, and it doesn't matter how strong that protect tile is when the enemy put up 4 web tiles for you so that you can stunlock their whole team with your 6 blue for 5 turns.

Spiderman's broken due to his longevitiy, but he actually doesn't contribute much toward actually winning the game. Any PvP game you could win with Spiderman, you most likely can win even quicker by replacing him with any decent character, though of course your team will be less ready to go the next game compared to if you had Spiderman.

Unknown

Spidey's brokenness:

Have +3 AP/all, and +3 B/P

Start with 6 AP blue. Stun all three on other team (for 1,2,3 turns). Make blue match.
Stun one guy who wakes up (4 turns). Make blue match. Remaining stunned for 1 and 2 turns.
Stun other guy (5 turns). Make blue match. Remaining stunned for 1 and 3 turns.
Stun other guy (6 turns), make whatever match. remaining stunned for 2 and 4 turns.
You've also probably worn someone down by now, using the ap you started with and any other incidental or cascade matches you made, so - while you probably can't continue this forever - you can probably keep the other team from making a move at all for a while. In a blue-poor map, of course, it's not as long, but the ability to stun the entire other team out of the gate is reasonably broken.

MarvelMan

Phantron wrote:

It seems like this thread has a lot of people who are of the "I heard Spiderman is ovepowered". Yes you heard correctly, but he's not overpowered for the imagined reasons.

Spiderman is always on a team with extremely good offense, because the strategy of a Spiderman team revolves around killing at least one person very fast, and Spiderman does absolutely no offense on his own, so it's up to the other two guys to do the job. Even with maxed blue, it's unrealistic to expect to stun the entire team of 3 people, so you got to get it down to 2 guys and preferably one. You don't necessarily have to be collecting blue early on (though certainly you wouldn't pass up good blue matches) because you're trying to collect offense tiles. Spider-sense is pretty much useless because usually you won't be throwing up any web tiles until one guy is down and the base protection value is decent but hardly game breaking. His heal is also useless in the context of the game because once it can heal enough, it means you got enough web tiles up there to actually stunlock the opposing team so you no longer need the heal in the context of this game. Sure, it'd be very useful for the next game to start at 100% health but you certainly don't need it this game.

One of the oddities about Spiderman is that he becomes more overpowered when the other side also has a Spiderman, because that means any blue you missed becomes web tiles that you can use later, which accelerates your stuns. Yes they might be able to put up a good Spider-sense tile but so can you, and it doesn't matter how strong that protect tile is when the enemy put up 4 web tiles for you so that you can stunlock their whole team with your 6 blue for 5 turns.

Spiderman's broken due to his longevitiy, but he actually doesn't contribute much toward actually winning the game. Any PvP game you could win with Spiderman, you most likely can win even quicker by replacing him with any decent character, though of course your team will be less ready to go the next game compared to if you had Spiderman.

Thank you! Ive been puzzling over how to explain this common misconception of Spidey strategy. It highlights why Spidey/OBW are so common: prolong game play in the new world order of slower games meaning more damage taken.

Unknown

gobstopper wrote:

Comparing Level-40 max 2-ability MWidow with Level-141 max 3-ability Spidey makes a lot of sense =]

If it's a relavent comparison. M.BW as a 1-star is pretty damn good.

Unknown

Ben Grimm wrote:

Spidey's brokenness:

Have +3 AP/all, and +3 B/P

Start with 6 AP blue. Stun all three on other team (for 1,2,3 turns). Make blue match.
Stun one guy who wakes up (4 turns). Make blue match. Remaining stunned for 1 and 2 turns.
Stun other guy (5 turns). Make blue match. Remaining stunned for 1 and 3 turns.
Stun other guy (6 turns), make whatever match. remaining stunned for 2 and 4 turns.
You've also probably worn someone down by now, using the ap you started with and any other incidental or cascade matches you made, so - while you probably can't continue this forever - you can probably keep the other team from making a move at all for a while. In a blue-poor map, of course, it's not as long, but the ability to stun the entire other team out of the gate is reasonably broken.

No No No

Stop using boosts to illustrate broken powers. Bagman must be perfect because he's the only character that can't one-shot Hulk using boosts.