Victory Bonus - Upcoming Feature Discussion

kensterr

image too small. can't see anything

Malificant

As many have said, this is much better than the previous design. One thing I saw in the announcement though, is saying that this is to discourage people to use skips from cherry-picking easy opponents. That's not how I use skips. My current roster (115 Spider-Man, 85 2* Wolfie, 80 GSBW or whoever is required by the event) can take most challenges unboosted. First-turn advantage plus a sub-optimal AI are enough to give the player the edge in most battles. I'm not looking to gain ranking artificially. I'm looking to maximize the reward from winning the battle against the risk of getting beat in revenge.

For example, in the current DD tournament, I was presented a team of 15 DD + 85 2* Wolfie + 85 Thor for 11 points. If I win, I barely move up the charts. When I get beaten, I'll probably lose around 25-30, making the entire battle a net loss for the time invested. Two skips later, I saw the exact same roster for over 30 points. I'll take that match every time.

My current heuristic is that if a match is over 25 points, I'll take it. Under 20, I'll skip. For anything in-between it depends on the strength of the opposing roster and where I am on the leaderboard. This new system will probably encourage me to take more 20-25 point matches, but I'm sure I'll still end up skipping a lot of 10 pointers.

If you want to change the impulse to skip, you need to change that risk-reward calculation. Here are some ways it might be done:
- Make the points you earn based solely on the difference between the power in the two rosters. It would be tricky to balance, but it would solve the above problem, and would encourage people to use weaker teams to try for more points.
- Change the revenge/defeat penalties to make it less scary to face low-ranked opponents.
- Don't apply the skip penalty to opponents ranked lower than you.
- All players to specify minimum opponent levels to face.
- Add an option that allows you to boost the opponents by some amount (like 30 lvls each) in exchange for more raking points and ISO.
- Change the AI so it stops missing 5-matches and so we don't get free turns by forcing it to take bad 4-matches. This would make it less likely that anyone you can beat can also beat you.
- Do something like the FF12 gambit system where you can earn behaviors or defense bonuses you can assign to your team to adjust the AI behavior. That would add new ways to customize your characters to your play-style and add new collectible entities to the game.

Unknown

@Malificant: Well said. Did we ask for filters for this very reason? Did we get them? Do we get tax instead like the skips were not drain enough as they are?

Unknown

Malificant wrote:

- Don't apply the skip penalty to opponents ranked lower than you.

Actually with just that small and trivial change the whole thing would look SO much better. (I'd even go with more than X lower.)

Unknown

I'm looking forward to this change. First, it will pose a decision to the player between two good choices. Do I go for more iso, or a bigger gain in ranking? The other effect I see this doing is putting players into appropriate mmrs, or a rather large portion.

I feel I will be more inclined to complete each attack now, and take the losses where they happen. At least now the benefit will be more noticeable, and worth taking that loss for the bonus staying for the next match and having your mmr adjusted as well.

So I am actually seeing good come from this at all angles. Thanks, D3!

Unknown

I wonder if there is some way we can organize the features/complaints that matter most to us and show how many people support them.

like some kind of ballot, or a place where we can add features and upvote the ones that matter the most to us.

There are a lot of good ideas and concerns here I'm just afraid that they get lost in the noise of a lot of people pulling in different directions.

There are a few features I would love to be implemented.

- No Tax for opponents weaker than you
- No Tax for someone you already skipped
- Weight Classes where you never get matched with someone that clearly has a much stronger team than you do.

PorkBelly

davecazz wrote:

- Weight Classes where you never get matched with someone that clearly has a much stronger team than you do.

Yep. Sucks for me to get taxed when my lvl 50 team gets matched up with lvl 120s. Which seems to happen a lot.

kensterr

Malificant wrote:

As many have said, this is much better than the previous design. One thing I saw in the announcement though, is saying that this is to discourage people to use skips from cherry-picking easy opponents. That's not how I use skips. My current roster (115 Spider-Man, 85 2* Wolfie, 80 GSBW or whoever is required by the event) can take most challenges unboosted. First-turn advantage plus a sub-optimal AI are enough to give the player the edge in most battles. I'm not looking to gain ranking artificially. I'm looking to maximize the reward from winning the battle against the risk of getting beat in revenge.

For example, in the current DD tournament, I was presented a team of 15 DD + 85 2* Wolfie + 85 Thor for 11 points. If I win, I barely move up the charts. When I get beaten, I'll probably lose around 25-30, making the entire battle a net loss for the time invested. Two skips later, I saw the exact same roster for over 30 points. I'll take that match every time.

My current heuristic is that if a match is over 25 points, I'll take it. Under 20, I'll skip. For anything in-between it depends on the strength of the opposing roster and where I am on the leaderboard. This new system will probably encourage me to take more 20-25 point matches, but I'm sure I'll still end up skipping a lot of 10 pointers.

If you want to change the impulse to skip, you need to change that risk-reward calculation. Here are some ways it might be done:
- Make the points you earn based solely on the difference between the power in the two rosters. It would be tricky to balance, but it would solve the above problem, and would encourage people to use weaker teams to try for more points.
- Change the revenge/defeat penalties to make it less scary to face low-ranked opponents.
- Don't apply the skip penalty to opponents ranked lower than you.
- All players to specify minimum opponent levels to face.
- Add an option that allows you to boost the opponents by some amount (like 30 lvls each) in exchange for more raking points and ISO.
- Change the AI so it stops missing 5-matches and so we don't get free turns by forcing it to take bad 4-matches. This would make it less likely that anyone you can beat can also beat you.
- Do something like the FF12 gambit system where you can earn behaviors or defense bonuses you can assign to your team to adjust the AI behavior. That would add new ways to customize your characters to your play-style and add new collectible entities to the game.

I keep getting opponents who are above me in terms of level, in the Blind Justice tourney. DD + thor/wolverince/OBW/Storm 85, while my highest level is Storm 70. No choice but to keep skipping until I feel that I have a chance, not to say that I'm looking for an easy fight.

Unknown

I hope they don't think this is a remedy to the constrained ISO problem. Even if I never skip, that only means an extra 300 ISO per hour for me.

Unknown

I think this has potential. It said S.H.I.E.L.D. Simulator would have the new format, not necessarily all future PVP tournaments. I don't play the shield PVP, simply because the rewards suck, but if now I can gain 100 iso for each consecutive fight minimum, i'm in. It won't cure all our issues, but this shows they're willing to listen. Might fix our MMR's though. Take this as a victory men and women. A sign that we do TRULY have a voice.

Unknown

Malificant wrote:

If you want to change the impulse to skip, you need to change that risk-reward calculation. Here are some ways it might be done:
- Make the points you earn based solely on the difference between the power in the two rosters. It would be tricky to balance, but it would solve the above problem, and would encourage people to use weaker teams to try for more points.

But then you start penalizing people for leveling up. Like, if I can run a 1* lvl 50 team and get 30 points per match or a 2* lvl 85 team and get 20 points per match, why did I bother leveling up my 2*'s? You'd aggravate the current problem that weaker rosters have a notable advantage (in opponent selection) and you'd see top 10's filled with all 1* rosters.

Unknown

DD-The-Mighty wrote:

bahamut685 wrote:

It's like you think you know how the English language works, but clearly your reading comprehension fails. It's well known that low level players (20-30s) are currently getting an overly easy run at rewards. I'm in the opposite situation, being that all of my opponents are far above my level, despite not managing a top 15 finish in ages, and barely managing top 45s anymore (though this will presumably change with the no-skip +iso bonus).

Pre thorverine? definetly. Post? NO. That's ****.

The average brackets throw high, middle, and and lows all together. That is a proven fact. and the number of "low level" to mid"level" players that finish the last day in top 15 is a low percentage. If that were even the result in 30% of the brackets out there, you and every other near endgamer would be all over the forums throwing a unholy fit. You rightfully did when lower level thorverines were jacking you for 30 points a pop. Why the heck are you attacking me, when i wasn't even talking to you?
You claim i want "free wins" and then you openly admit that your bootyhurt at the "mmr" for not essentially giving you "free wins" and keeping you in the top 45-15 every tourney.

You sound kinda bitter buddy, wanna talk about it in PM? Gives these nice forum folks a break from your crazy? Hit me up.

I wasn't sure which post to piggyback onto so I selected this one.

Firstly, I want feedback if everyone is seeing a selection with low, middle, and high teams? I know I do not. I'm in the boat like a few others who see teams with lvl 20+ higher than my best hero. Some i face, others I do skip. I'm a skipper and I feel no shame in admitting it.

I ask this because I feel many of us may not honestly see the changes that the dev had done for selection and balancing competition. Since I can generally only see teams stronger or relatively equal to mine, it eliminates the chances that I will have any battles for less than 20 pts. It also eliminates my opportunity to bully a lesser team. But it's good to note, i can target someone stronger and win 40 pts. I point this out cause some posters do not see the connection between weaker teams making it higher in brackets versus "super teams". Those with lvl85+ teams can't target teams not within their MMR (whatever that stands for). And due to an unwritten honour rule amongst most who are on this forum, many will not retaliatiion against a weaker team. You lose the chance to send someone backwards. So yes, those with "developing" teams have as good if not better chance of rising right to the top if they pick their fights well and have some boosts along the way. I've been seeing those with lvl 40 2* teams in the Top 5. I skip tons but I can't get matched up with those teams. So it's possible that they only see positive points rather than any attacks against.

I also hear many of the elite commenting on skipping only cause they are seeing 15 pt competition. Don't they see that they've reached the pinnacle group? It's like Gates and Buffett. It's lonely up at the top. So with the dev programming so the system selects 15 pt opponents, seems very logical. This would allow others who have not reached the summit to reach there as well. I feel there is nothing to complain about when you're at this peak. I admire the competitiveness of those who feel they aren't treated fairly but I believe this system opens up the chances for others to win tournaments that in the past, would have had no chance. (BTW, I'm no where close to winning anything. Just working on 2* covers and when I have them at lvl 80, then I'll worry about getting more 3*).

Also, the comment about getting paid $120 and no parking versus $100 and free $20 parking is not the same. If I don't own a car, I now have $20 more than you to spend elsewhere.

Sorry if I'm a bit off-topic. Not a fan of the skip tax but this new change mentioned by IceIX is an improvement. Need to give it a try and see how it works before criticizing. I admire their work and their persistence to give us the best gaming experience possible. But like others, I worry about usage of Health packs and losing playing time. The good thing is that he has shown to be listening to our concerns and if the new rollout becomes a real beatdown on some people, there is a set of ears who will listen. We are lucky. I don't think other games have someone to monitors feedback as well as he does. Hats off to you.

dark jurai

Has it been mentioned, how will this effect retaliations? Often I'll get attacked and lose 30 points, and the retaliation is worth 8 points... and then if I retaliate, I'm just gonna get hammered for another 30. I'll effectively be forced to skip them?

bahamut685

WiseG8 wrote:

I ask this because I feel many of us may not honestly see the changes that the dev had done for selection and balancing competition. Since I can generally only see teams stronger or relatively equal to mine, it eliminates the chances that I will have any battles for less than 20 pts. It also eliminates my opportunity to bully a lesser team. But it's good to note, i can target someone stronger and win 40 pts. I point this out cause some posters do not see the connection between weaker teams making it higher in brackets versus "super teams". Those with lvl85+ teams can't target teams not within their MMR (whatever that stands for). And due to an unwritten honour rule amongst most who are on this forum, many will not retaliatiion against a weaker team. You lose the chance to send someone backwards. So yes, those with "developing" teams have as good if not better chance of rising right to the top if they pick their fights well and have some boosts along the way. I've been seeing those with lvl 40 2* teams in the Top 5. I skip tons but I can't get matched up with those teams. So it's possible that they only see positive points rather than any attacks against.

I also hear many of the elite commenting on skipping only cause they are seeing 15 pt competition. Don't they see that they've reached the pinnacle group? It's like Gates and Buffett. It's lonely up at the top. So with the dev programming so the system selects 15 pt opponents, seems very logical. This would allow others who have not reached the summit to reach there as well. I feel there is nothing to complain about when you're at this peak. I admire the competitiveness of those who feel they aren't treated fairly but I believe this system opens up the chances for others to win tournaments that in the past, would have had no chance. (BTW, I'm no where close to winning anything. Just working on 2* covers and when I have them at lvl 80, then I'll worry about getting more 3*).

Points for a win don't depend on the quality or even general rating of opponents, just your opponents' current score in the current tourney, so if a lot of the people in your mmr grouping sit out of a tourney (or start it later than you), then you're going to see all low-point matches.

Example: I'm busy for about 15 hours before the end of the DareDevil tourney, so I got all my work on it done about 24 hours out and put up a shield. But my last 400 points was gained by skipping tons of people (all with higher or similar roster levels) to find people worth 20+ (toward the end I was taking anything over 15) points.

I got a good challenge out of the deal, since the only people at or near my score had stronger characters, but to end my ramblings:
1) I'm in the same situation as you, with most of my opponents 20ish levels higher (was glad to have a 28 DareDevil).
2) The MMR fixes aren't doing anything to alleviate my excessive challenge. [Level 100+ characters that tell me I'm winning the match, despite O.Widow at 77 being my high: Spidey (5/3/5, a.k.a.-rare/bad build), Hulk, IM40, Grey Widow (non-level-5--green)]
3) It is QUITE annoying seeing #1, #5, #9 in my bracket, having a level 50 as their high (only level 48 in the case of number 5).

DD-The-Mighty

bahamut685 wrote:

WiseG8 wrote:

~Snip (great points)

I also hear many of the elite commenting on skipping only cause they are seeing 15 pt competition. Don't they see that they've reached the pinnacle group? It's like Gates and Buffett. It's lonely up at the top. So with the dev programming so the system selects 15 pt opponents, seems very logical. This would allow others who have not reached the summit to reach there as well. I feel there is nothing to complain about when you're at this peak. I admire the competitiveness of those who feel they aren't treated fairly but I believe this system opens up the chances for others to win tournaments that in the past, would have had no chance. (BTW, I'm no where close to winning anything. Just working on 2* covers and when I have them at lvl 80, then I'll worry about getting more 3*).

Points for a win don't depend on the quality or even general rating of opponents, just your opponents' current score in the current tourney, so if a lot of the people in your mmr grouping sit out of a tourney (or start it later than you), then you're going to see all low-point matches.

Example: I'm busy for about 15 hours before the end of the DareDevil tourney, so I got all my work on it done about 24 hours out and put up a shield. But my last 400 points was gained by skipping tons of people (all with higher or similar roster levels) to find people worth 20+ (toward the end I was taking anything over 15) points.

I got a good challenge out of the deal, since the only people at or near my score had stronger characters, but to end my ramblings:
1) I'm in the same situation as you, with most of my opponents 20ish levels higher (was glad to have a 28 DareDevil).
2) The MMR fixes aren't doing anything to alleviate my excessive challenge. [Level 100+ characters that tell me I'm winning the match, despite O.Widow at 77 being my high: Spidey (5/3/5, a.k.a.-rare/bad build), Hulk, IM40, Grey Widow (non-level-5--green)]
3) It is QUITE annoying seeing #1, #5, #9 in my bracket, having a level 50 as their high (only level 48 in the case of number 5).

Funny, you both are asking the same question i have: what changes do they plan to implement in the MMR (match Making Rating) to go alongside this skip tax.
It seems as though it came from the mindset that all skippers were skipping to find the easiest possible match-ups (amplified by the fact that only players at the top of the brackets see sub 11 point gains from lower ranked matchups.) But that is simply not true for those still arming up their late 1* or 2* cover rosters.

and to double down on WiseG8's point I'm not sure what i could ask d3 is to do about the inevitable point bleed-out that awaits top ranked players without reevaluating the entire pvp point structure. As i and others have noted its the curse of using a competition pool of existing players and limiting the ceiling cap of playable opponents to whoever is above you. And math dictates; if there are only 5-10 people above you in a possible pool of 30 immediate opponent who would you can fight. odds are you will see the majority below you at a very slow point gain. Basically Holding the top spot is the hardest thing in the game.

Unfortunately i cant think of what they could do to alleviate that that would not result in top ranked players locking up the top spots the minute they get there. And d3 seems very determined to not let that happen.

Unknown

I think the post right before mine actually hits the nail on the head:

Every single suggestion people have put forward so far ultimately will either allow Top Players to guarantee there's no chance of a high rank upset, or fix some problems but make others worse.

I look at the Victory Bonus and the skip tax, and something hits me: They're trying to DETER and ENCOURAGE different behavior. Not preventing, not forcing, which they could. Just removing the skip button and changing up the MMR system would be very doable, I bet.

So... Maybe the issue here has 0 to do with any single problem... Maybe it's that they don't know how to fix the entire PvP system at once, period, and are having to try different things. They're playing it safe because yeah, the current system isn't great, but they don't want to risk an overhaul that makes a new system so much worse, it causes a REAL uproar.

Example: Sure the PvE events have sucked lately because of all the issues/bugs... But pretty much anyone who pays attention/actually reads announcements/etc knows they weren't working as intended. How much worse would the outcry be if those changes were WILLINGLY made as a permanent change, though?

Unknown

Awesome, and can I say, I enjoy the flavor of the in-lore style post =D.

kensterr

Can someone tell Demiurge this...

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein

Unknown

bahamut685 wrote:

Example: I'm busy for about 15 hours before the end of the DareDevil tourney, so I got all my work on it done about 24 hours out and put up a shield. But my last 400 points was gained by skipping tons of people (all with higher or similar roster levels) to find people worth 20+ (toward the end I was taking anything over 15) points.

For anything, it's completely ridiculous that you can't attack people who are in your bracket above you.

Unknown

Looking and thinking on things, let me see if I understand this correctly:

Matches have a +30 Iso bonus.
Skipping an opponent will reduce that bonus to by 10 (to +20, +10, and then 0). You do not lose any of your stored ISO.
Skipping further than that, does the bonus change to -10 (meaning a match that rewards 70 would reward 60 instead), or (after rereading) does it still impose the tax of -10 ISO, where not only do you not gain a bonus, but you lose -10 Iso from your stored ISO every time you skip.

If the latter, then I am less impressed with this proposed change than my initial reaction.