**** Elektra (Unkillable) ****

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  • notamutantnotamutant Age Unconfirmed Posts: 855 Critical Contributor
    I don't see why people think it would be a good idea to lower her black cost. Her black is insane. It is the only skill that can completely protect a character from both single target and AoE attacks. The high cost prevents it from being spammable, but if you could easily get it out, unless Elektra was the first character you took out in the match, she would almost never go down when boosted. It could easily take 3-4 turns to get rid of all of her black tiles, while she continues damaging you and draining your AP. You can't make black matches yourself, since her red will just steal the black AP you made. Offensively Elektra still sucks, but on defense, she just became much more annoying to fight against. Possibly even worse than the invisible characters.
  • JaedenkaalJaedenkaal Posts: 3,357 Chairperson of the Boards
    I don't know, I think the ability to steal attack (and protect, I guess) tiles and convert them to strong strikes is a pretty nice boost. Special tiles are getting pretty common these days between Wasp, Medusa, Carol, Cage, and Coulson. Once you have a few of those out Shadow Step and Ballet of Death do some pretty significant damage (not to mention whoever else you brought)
  • hopper1979hopper1979 Posts: 563 Critical Contributor
    edited April 2017
    I don't see why people think it would be a good idea to lower her black cost. Her black is insane. It is the only skill that can completely protect a character from both single target and AoE attacks. The high cost prevents it from being spammable, but if you could easily get it out, unless Elektra was the first character you took out in the match, she would almost never go down when boosted. It could easily take 3-4 turns to get rid of all of her black tiles, while she continues damaging you and draining your AP. You can't make black matches yourself, since her red will just steal the black AP you made. Offensively Elektra still sucks, but on defense, she just became much more annoying to fight against. Possibly even worse than the invisible characters.
    I would agree with you if the tiles did not just drop on black.  Update her black like they did with her red so the protect traps now spam on 3 colors and it would be fine at 10 ap.  But when she activates the black power you know exactly what to eliminate (and you have to match them if you want to keep using the power as well) and if you have a poorly colored board it is even worse because you do not get all the tiles out.  In general you are lucky if you get 1 or 3 defenses out of the power for 10 ap. Hence why it should cost less if it only spams on one color. :smile:
  • Rick_OShayRick_OShay Posts: 765 Critical Contributor
    ....
    I would agree with you if ..... In general you are lucky if you get 1 or 3 defenses out of the power for 10 ap. Hence why it should cost less if it only spams on one color. :smile:
    Oh man, think again. And not a mutant is 100% correct.
     If you're only getting 1 defense out of Shadow Step you need to play it when black tiles are less likely to be matched away. 
    I was an Elektra fan before, and now she can be amazing. Do you realize that she also re-acquires the black AP when she dodges? With Ballet out & stealing even more AP, it's playable again very soon. 
    She may now be a good counter to Medusa and Carnage, and has always been good vs unavoidable enemy one-shots (Headbutt etc).

  • darkwatcherDEZdarkwatcherDEZ Posts: 91 Match Maker
    Paired revamped Elektra with 3* Patch and 3* Thanos just to test some theories. Even though there are ability overlaps, the other two tanked her red and black allowing her to collect AP safely. She still tanks purple, team-up, and blue. I went with her RED as opposed to Patch because her traps will steal AP back anyway. I get enough AP to launch Patch into Berserker Fury, then use Electra Purple to steal buff the strike tiles. If her RED trap is out it causes more damage because of the strike tiles. I then get her to Shadow Step. The damage output will take someone out...and when it does...Thanos' Court Death BLACK does AOE, then self damage triggers Shadow Step for more damage to the enemy, and Patch shrugs it off with self heal.
  • DormammuDormammu Posts: 3,460 Chairperson of the Boards
    I put her with Patch and MaxPun last night and it was a slaughterhouse. No one could stand up to that team. Patch green - Electra Purple - Punisher Black. Ouch. Plus, Electra's red gets the advantage of all those strike tiles. It was like having a 4k attack tile out.
  • hopper1979hopper1979 Posts: 563 Critical Contributor
    ....
    I would agree with you if ..... In general you are lucky if you get 1 or 3 defenses out of the power for 10 ap. Hence why it should cost less if it only spams on one color. :smile:
    Oh man, think again. And not a mutant is 100% correct.
     If you're only getting 1 defense out of Shadow Step you need to play it when black tiles are less likely to be matched away. 
    I was an Elektra fan before, and now she can be amazing. Do you realize that she also re-acquires the black AP when she dodges? With Ballet out & stealing even more AP, it's playable again very soon. 
    She may now be a good counter to Medusa and Carnage, and has always been good vs unavoidable enemy one-shots (Headbutt etc).

    If you have to wait for the right time to pop her black power than it is too situational to be a good power.  Yes it is easier to cast now that red steals black but that still does not change the fact it is expensive in most cases.  She walks a very fine line with who she can match up with because you want her tanking several colors, but at the same time, not too many until you get her black going.  So if she is tanking black she is going to get beat up well before you can get Shadow Step out due to its relatively high cost, on top of that you need to be careful in your black collecting once it is cast due to matching the blocks the traps go on witch lower how many hits she can take.  Yes red helps a lot, I am very happy with the upgrade but that does not change the fact that black is an expensive power especially when only black tiles gets the traps, if it was distributed like red is now (three colors) I would have no issues with the cost at 10.  Why do you think they gave red three colors for the trap to appear on?  As soon as that power was cast we targeted red tiles, now it is not that easy.  She is supposed to be tricky right? Putting all her eggs in one basket, black, is not very tricky?  Again I am very happy with this upgrade and I will be using her much more, she went from situational to a solid 4 star but one or two more tweaks and she could have been great, top 10.
  • Tiger_WongTiger_Wong Posts: 425 Mover and Shaker
    ....
    I would agree with you if ..... In general you are lucky if you get 1 or 3 defenses out of the power for 10 ap. Hence why it should cost less if it only spams on one color. :smile:
    Oh man, think again. And not a mutant is 100% correct.
     If you're only getting 1 defense out of Shadow Step you need to play it when black tiles are less likely to be matched away. 
    I was an Elektra fan before, and now she can be amazing. Do you realize that she also re-acquires the black AP when she dodges? With Ballet out & stealing even more AP, it's playable again very soon. 
    She may now be a good counter to Medusa and Carnage, and has always been good vs unavoidable enemy one-shots (Headbutt etc).

    If you have to wait for the right time to pop her black power than it is too situational to be a good power.
    What? That's not being too situational. That's being smart. You don't activate IM40s yellow if there's a chance it can get matched do you?
  • Rick_OShayRick_OShay Posts: 765 Critical Contributor
    ....
    I would agree with you if ..... In general you are lucky if you get 1 or 3 defenses out of the power for 10 ap. Hence why it should cost less if it only spams on one color. :smile:
    Oh man, think again. And not a mutant is 100% correct.
     If you're only getting 1 defense out of Shadow Step you need to play it when black tiles are less likely to be matched away. 
    I was an Elektra fan before, and now she can be amazing. Do you realize that she also re-acquires the black AP when she dodges? With Ballet out & stealing even more AP, it's playable again very soon. 
    She may now be a good counter to Medusa and Carnage, and has always been good vs unavoidable enemy one-shots (Headbutt etc).

    If you have to wait for the right time to pop her black power than it is too situational to be a good power.
    What? That's not being too situational. That's being smart. You don't activate IM40s yellow if there's a chance it can get matched do you?

    If you have to wait for the right time to pop her black power than it is too situational to be a good power.
    What? That's not being too situational. That's being smart. You don't activate IM40s yellow if there's a chance it can get matched do you?
    Haa! That's the Exact reply I was coming back to state myself!
  • hopper1979hopper1979 Posts: 563 Critical Contributor
    edited April 2017
    You activate it if you have to, that is why it is only 6, so if you cast it out of desperation you don't hamstring yourself for the entire match.  Why do you think IM40 is used so often, even when not used ideally his best power is usable multiple times even in non-ideal situations.  The point of her black, in my opinon (it may differ from yours, and that my be why we are arguing) is to let her tank and absorb damage.  I am not advocating a drop to 6 black that would be overpowered but 8 or 9 is more realistic for what the power is doing especially when it is limited to dropping on one color.  This is why she will remain somewhat limited in her use, her best power, black, is too situational still.  She is one of the most unique characters in the game, this update will help her see more use, it was a solid update but it did not fix her major drawback.  I am still not worried about facing her in pvp, why, because she is still dead in in most of the matches before she can cast her black.  I am getting the impression you think her black is too cheap, yes?
  • Tiger_WongTiger_Wong Posts: 425 Mover and Shaker
    - i think her black is fine as it is/always was. And now that it's being helped with her Ballet of Death, it's even better.

    - People use im40s yellow not only because it's cheap but it's a fantastic battery. 

    - but they Still don't use it as soon as they get it. They look at the board first. It's just smart use. 

    - yeah, I know what to use Elektras black for. I use it to absorb a big hit or to absorb multiple, strike powered hits. Sometimes, I may even put it out there and not put Elektra in front until I feel I want to take a hit from a particular character. But yeah. We know what it's there for. Duh.

    - dropping it to 8 would be great, sure. But the point is, it's not necessary. I mean..... think about this for a second..... if Elektras black would cost 8.....

    - Elektra has 10 AP
    - Activate Shadow Step at lvl 5
    - 5 black traps on the field. 
    - opponent attacks with a power
    - Shadow Step activates
    - Elektra gains 1 black AP
    - opponent gets a two match cascade
    - Shadow Step activates twice more
    - Elektra gains two more black AP
    - opponent turn ends as they take a bunch of damage. 
    - Ballet of Death activates
    - Elektra now has 6 black AP. And still two more SS tiles on the field.

    Thats really dirty man. 





  • hopper1979hopper1979 Posts: 563 Critical Contributor
    That is the point, she is a unique tank and is there to protect the team.  The more I play with her though the less I agree with this statement which just reinforces my initial point about her black.  A mild cascade can decimate your entire set of traps on top of that because they are all in one color they are not that hard to remove.  If she is paired with other 4s, at best, you will tank 3 colors with her, if a 5 is in the mix you will probably be at 1 or 2.  So that is all she is good for taking a big hit but by the time she is ready to take that hit she has lost 1000's of HP especially if she is tanking black.  Also you need to be lucky enough to have her colors on the board to match so she can absorb that hit.  Granted, if she ends up alone that is a different issue but that is true under either condition and if you are naive enough to leave her for last you reap what you sew.  He application is still limited and I contend it is due to the cost of her black, I liked Dormammu's idea and I will try it out myself, he is using her as an offensive battery and ignoring her black all together, that highlights my point, her black is too situational and expensive for what it does.  I have suggested some easy fixes that would keep the cost the same since you seem to think 10 is reasonable.  Lets be honest this is an important discussion because the best tank has been hammered and we need to look for a new one.  I wish Rocket and Groot were a 4-star so they would have the HP to accommodate their true healing power because right now they are the best tank in the game with Patch and X-23 close behind.  Electra could have been the heir apparent with a very minor tweak sadly it will not happen.
  • hopper1979hopper1979 Posts: 563 Critical Contributor
    Dormammu said:
    I put her with Patch and MaxPun last night and it was a slaughterhouse. No one could stand up to that team. Patch green - Electra Purple - Punisher Black. Ouch. Plus, Electra's red gets the advantage of all those strike tiles. It was like having a 4k attack tile out.
    Dormammu thank you for this excellent team suggestion.  Just tried it out and is the fist combo I have tried with the updated Electra that I think works.  I am curious of how you have slotted you card to maximize things.  Right now I am assuming that Electra is 3/5/5 but I can see it going 5/3/5 if you want Patch to be your primary damage dealer with his green power.  Either way I am assuming you have patch at 5/3/5 since you want him to tank while you are collecting black and red will be going to Electra.  Those two make sense so how are you using Punisher.  If green goes towards Patch and black goes to Electra to help reduce damage when you can finally cast it are you using Punisher as a strike generator?  So are you going 5/3/5 with Punisher since Electra's red steals black it will be much easier to fire than his green or are you going 3/5/5 and assuming that by the time you may have collected enough green to cast Patche's green Punisher's green is already a better choice because at least one enemy will probably be down at that point?  I am stuck at 5/5/1 for Punisher at the moment (so I am speculating because I cannot test it myself yet) but I will be messing with this group it is the best team-up I have seen for Electra so far, thanks.
  • Tiger_WongTiger_Wong Posts: 425 Mover and Shaker
    That is the point, she is a unique tank and is there to protect the team.  The more I play with her though the less I agree with this statement which just reinforces my initial point about her black.  A mild cascade can decimate your entire set of traps on top of that because they are all in one color they are not that hard to remove.  If she is paired with other 4s, at best, you will tank 3 colors with her, if a 5 is in the mix you will probably be at 1 or 2.  So that is all she is good for taking a big hit but by the time she is ready to take that hit she has lost 1000's of HP especially if she is tanking black.  Also you need to be lucky enough to have her colors on the board to match so she can absorb that hit.  Granted, if she ends up alone that is a different issue but that is true under either condition and if you are naive enough to leave her for last you reap what you sew.  He application is still limited and I contend it is due to the cost of her black, I liked Dormammu's idea and I will try it out myself, he is using her as an offensive battery and ignoring her black all together, that highlights my point, her black is too situational and expensive for what it does.  I have suggested some easy fixes that would keep the cost the same since you seem to think 10 is reasonable.  Lets be honest this is an important discussion because the best tank has been hammered and we need to look for a new one.  I wish Rocket and Groot were a 4-star so they would have the HP to accommodate their true healing power because right now they are the best tank in the game with Patch and X-23 close behind.  Electra could have been the heir apparent with a very minor tweak sadly it will not happen.

    - idc about OML. Never had a single cover of his. so the nerf doesn't affect me. 
    - dropping her black to 8 will not solve the apparent "you can only tank two of her colors sometimes" problem, the apparent "a mild cascade can decimate your traps" problem, and the apparent "she needs to be lucky enough to have her colors on the board" problem. 

    Look..... I'm gonna say this last bit and let this go. It really sounds like you just want an op black that does everything. I don't. If I have a team that's been hurt too much, I simply SWITCH TEAMS. If Elektra isn't perfect for a team, I won't use her. 

    With her buffs, I'm about thisclose to making a new team I came up with a staple. 

    Medusa 3/3/4
    Elektra 5/5/3
    Invisible Woman 4/4/5

    my Elektra isn't champed and neither is my medusa. But they don't need to be right now. There's ways to gather green, blue, purple, and black AP. It's EASY to get 14 purple to double throw a double cross and fill the field with junk tiles to be bubbled, matched for more AP in purple, green or blue, or turned again into really strong strikes. Once Ballet of Death is out, you're getting more black for defense to buy some time with Shadow Step but if not, you've got IW's yellow to do that as well. IWs Force Field Crush is a good nuke and I love the control with her Force Bubbles. And when her invisible tile is on the field she can't be targeted so that means, more colors for Elektra to tank when Shadow Step is out. This team can deal damage, mitigate damage, has good board control, AP gain, and even some shakeup. 

    Only my IW is champed. Once I champ Elektra I'll run her at either 4/5/4 or 3/5/5. Depends on the team I'm facing. I'll run Medusa at either 5/3/5 or 5/4/4.

  • DormammuDormammu Posts: 3,460 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited April 2017
    Dormammu said:
    I put her with Patch and MaxPun last night and it was a slaughterhouse. No one could stand up to that team. Patch green - Electra Purple - Punisher Black. Ouch. Plus, Electra's red gets the advantage of all those strike tiles. It was like having a 4k attack tile out.
    Dormammu thank you for this excellent team suggestion.  Just tried it out and is the fist combo I have tried with the updated Electra that I think works.  I am curious of how you have slotted you card to maximize things.
    I've only had to use Patch's green once per fight. I have him at 5/3/5. I set Electra at 5/3/5 because I don't use her black in this team. I make sure I can fire her purple directly after Patch's green. Maxpun I left at my default 5/5/3 build, though setting his blue at 5 wouldn't be a bad idea as I've used it more than his green with this team, but if you can get enough green to use Pun's green its a great finishing move - so I left it at 5. His black is the primary concern though. I've managed to get 16k damage out of it unbuffed.
  • hopper1979hopper1979 Posts: 563 Critical Contributor
    I have been messing with this group all afternoon, definitely solid but Electra really needs the red out asap for the group to shine.  I think I agree with you on Maxpun 5/5/3 is the way to go (if I had that option :smiley: ) the damage output from  his black and green is significantly better than waiting for Electra's red to do the majority of the damage.  Patch's green seems to be only worth casting in multiple round nodes most of the time.  I still think people are overvaluing her black and this team supports my earlier points but this group will definitely enter my good team rotation.  Thanks again for the suggestion.

    Now Tiger Wong I think you team is reasonable I might go with Patch in place of IW, he can absorb damage better while you try and get Electra's black out, but I want you to realize one of the main reason IW is now a very solid 4 is because they reduced the cost of her invisibility power so it can be used to protect her team better.  That is the point I am try to get across with Electra a small tweak to the black cost would make her a solid 4, reducing the cost of the black by 1-2 it would not make it a black that does everything it would just become an excellent power especially if you limit it to spawning on black only due to its inherent pitfalls.  I think you are right though we are arguing in circles, I am just glad for the update because she is a fun character to play, she is definitely better and hopefully with new character releases Dormammu can come up with more good teams for us to try out :)
  • Tiger_WongTiger_Wong Posts: 425 Mover and Shaker
    What do you mean by "a solid 4"? Is that like a 5 point scale?



  • hopper1979hopper1979 Posts: 563 Critical Contributor
    What do you mean by "a solid 4"? Is that like a 5 point scale?



    A solid 4 is in the top half of the 4's but not the top 10 (so with the current 4 star count  IW wold be in the 11-20 range depending on play preference) for a character to be "solid" it needs to be usable on multiple teams with a varied group of characters.  IW fits that mold now.  I would still put Electra in the bottom half but much closer to the middle than before, her issue is that she is still to "niche" for to see use on many teams and you have to be very selective with who she pairs with.  "Niche" means she a character can be devastating under the right conditions, boosted, very specific partners but if those conditions are not met your team will not last long.  I want all characters to be "solid" well rounded and multiple good team possibilities, that is the fun of the game to me trying to figure out good teams and combos.  I know my terminology is somewhat arbitrary so if you want number assignments 7 out of 10 for IW, 5, up from 3, for Electra which is still subject to change as more people explore the updates and suggest teams.
  • DormammuDormammu Posts: 3,460 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited April 2017
    Electra is definitely still 'niche' in that I believe she needs her purple to truly shine, which means there needs to be enemy tiles on the board. But when her purple has been expanded to include defense and attack tiles as well as strikes, by setting it to 5, the situations where she becomes valuable is greatly increased. If I see any tile manufacturers on the enemy team I'm real tempted to take Electra because she can swiftly shift the flow of battle in your favor by buffing those tiles she steals.

    I don't see her black as a viable defensive option due to its AP cost, but that being said she's a great friend for Sue Storm because together they create a perfect rainbow and give you two options for shutting down incoming damage. There's additional synergy there because Sue can lock down enemy tiles Electra doesn't steal (or manufactures herself) completely shutting down a team that relies on special tiles. When I run that team I bring a giant red user, like Hulkbuster or Bucky, and don't use Electra's red.

    However, I do like Electra's red because it turns nasty when fortified by strikes. This is a slower way to do damage though, so in that case 3Cage is an excellent friend. His red tile, when set at 5, will absorb most match damage and give me some additional offensive options with his yellow and black (I use a 5/5/3 build with him almost exclusively).

    Put them (Sue/Electra/3Cage) together and you have an awesome defensive team. Cage shuts down match damage, Sue can hide you from AP powers, and Electra's stolen strikes and red trap tile slowly whittle the enemy down. Throw in the occasional green bomb from Sue and you have a nice win. The only problem is that this is slower than most players can tolerate in PvP.
  • hopper1979hopper1979 Posts: 563 Critical Contributor
    Dormammu I was thinking about the team we talked about yesterday with Electra/BigPun/Patch.  I am going to substitute X-23 for Patch and see how that goes.  She is a better tank assuming she tanks the colors she needs to heal (I am at 250 with her so the experiment might be over very quickly), green and black are still going to BigPun but now we have more options for generating only positive strike tiles (Patch's green can bite you in the **** on occasions) so you can cast X-23 green if you have collected 10 red if you want to transform the power for the strikes later.  Second, and more importantly you have something else to put the pink towards especially if the opposing team does not generate tiles, now when the opponent is searching for Dance of Death in the pink colors you have a bomb ready to drop in there as well.  

    I think Tiger Wong and you are on to something with IW, I might go with 4-Cage in PVE before 3Cage because of how many defense tiles he can flood the board with quickly and his black is reasonable not as good a 3Cage but better than Electra's black on this team.  Yellows can then go to IW invis or his yellow for damage, blue goes for control of the board and locking down their tiles and pink goes for transforming tiles when you can (do we know if Electra's pink transforms the bubbled tiles?).  This might not be a great offensive PVP team but since everybody seem to be about speed I think people would think twice about selecting this group on defense.  I will mess with this one some today as well.
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