**** Ant-Man (Scott Lang) ****

Unknown

Yeah, he doesn't 'reek' of powerhouse like Jean, so I doubt many rushed to max him, being given out as a freebie, doesn't help that vibe either. He also lacks the obvious 'z0mg that's strong' schtick that IMHB and PX have. But as mentioned - KingPin might be the perfect example...not popular but still STRONG.

I think ant-man loses points though in today's boosted system...just don't see him getting a huge performance boost when boosted, just tanking more. His big dmg was nearly fatal before, so that's not a big difference, and I doubt the value of his tiles go through the roof (just like when Daken is boosted). His dmg from attack tiles and ant bites will be stronger and more annoying (he was so well designed haha), but nothing that won't stop him from being cut down, or shaken up, or 'JEAN!'ed away. Just like Fisk...
- Unreall

Deilinvega

I noticed simple fact. The more fun and more gimmicky characters are, the more useless they seem in PvP speed rush meta, compared to straight feedXcolor-oneshotenemy-rinse&repeat3times characters that every top player use.

Somehow puzzles stopped being about fun and puzzles and became about speed and minimal effort. As someone who collected those gimmicky characters, like Quicksilver or IW I feel... Obsolate.

I still plan to max Ant-Man (Someday. If I actually manage to regulary reach 1000 points in PvP to get covers) because he seems fun. Maybe I will spend more times on PvE then, since gimmicky and tricky characters ar at ridiculous disatvantage in PvP.

Vhailorx

Deilinvega wrote:

I noticed simple fact. The more fun and more gimmicky characters are, the more useless they seem in PvP speed rush meta, compared to straight feedXcolor-oneshotenemy-rinse&repeat3times characters that every top player use.

Somehow puzzles stopped being about fun and puzzles and became about speed and minimal effort. As someone who collected those gimmicky characters, like Quicksilver or IW I feel... Obsolate.

I still plan to max Ant-Man (Someday. If I actually manage to regulary reach 1000 points in PvP to get covers) because he seems fun. Maybe I will spend more times on PvE then, since gimmicky and tricky characters ar at ridiculous disatvantage in PvP.

This is very true, and is a big weakness in the design of the game.

PvP is clearly the best reward:time spent ratio, but it is a very very stripped down version the game, demanding speed and reliability over almost anything else.

Would love to see something like a better-ai-equipped true pve mode where difficulty, rather than competition was the primary check on rewards. But given how much people complain about the gauntlet, I doubt such a mode,would go over well with the player base.

Unknown

Deilinvega wrote:

I noticed simple fact. The more fun and more gimmicky characters are, the more useless they seem in PvP speed rush meta, compared to straight feedXcolor-oneshotenemy-rinse&repeat3times characters that every top player use.

Somehow puzzles stopped being about fun and puzzles and became about speed and minimal effort. As someone who collected those gimmicky characters, like Quicksilver or IW I feel... Obsolate.

I still plan to max Ant-Man (Someday. If I actually manage to regulary reach 1000 points in PvP to get covers) because he seems fun. Maybe I will spend more times on PvE then, since gimmicky and tricky characters ar at ridiculous disatvantage in PvP.

I will keep saying this, but Fistbuster needs to be nerfed. Not because the combo is ultra broken, but because it is the only viable 1300+ pvp team composition because of the speed. We need other relevant PVP builds (I have used Ant-man and Kingpin and it's a blast, but a little slow) and to do that they need to slow down the fastest builds. So many characters would have a home if Fistbuster didn't exist (or wasn't as fast).

Unknown

I hate to break it to you, but the reality as those who want to be the best will ALWAYS find the most efficient methods and stick to those. Nerf Fistbuster, and they will simply regress to something else. The system in place now is terrific, no PvP is the same and while I do fight Fistbusters, I often am countering with a team all @ 200+ - so it's really not scary to fight.

Now, there IS something to be said for PvP being the better time/reward scenario - I'm a true testament to that as once scaling is factored in, PvE is only good for 'killing time and getting some of those free AP things', not for actually playing. Even when a character is being released via PvE, screw it, I'll just wait.

Even if rewards were ... reconfigured for PvE to better match PvP, you still wouldn't see a ton of difference in team make-up - what makes you fast in PvP, still works in PvE. PvE just allows 'slower' characters the ability to show their usefulness (like Blade or Steve Rogers).

It just is how it is, all games get to that point. I'm a big Street fighter guy and I've watched the same thing, tons and tons of people pick Ryu, the straight forward guy who is strong, while skipping over the more complex characters who might be stronger (see OG Seth and OG Gen before nerfs, because - Ryu ). Even if the effort could be rewarded with a win with some of the more complex or execution heavy characters, you will still see the best in the game 'devolve' to simpler more straight forward characters as they allow them to focus on other factors besides the complexity or the execution.

To compare, what makes a character like 3hor strong? He's got 2 really useful colors with a third semi-useful color, and builds himself up - meaning he isn't reliant upon the other team throwing out certain kinds of tiles, and 'bad boards' barely effect him, while both of those can easily take someone like Ant-Man or Blade - out of the game. Loki devolves to purple and green in some matches, and his purple sn't great...turning him to a 'just don't match 4 or 5' machine. Fighting against a 2* hawkeye by himself is HILARIOUS.

So there are really only two paths to that 'nirvana' where characters like Antman get the same kind of love - either make those characters simpler, or make the simpler characters more complex, neither of which is happening at this point. We'll see 4 person teams before that happens...
- Unreall

simonsez

barrok wrote:

I will keep saying this, but Fistbuster needs to be nerfed. Not because the combo is ultra broken, but because it is the only viable 1300+ pvp team composition because of the speed.

I don't buy it. The last few PvPs, I barely saw any Fistbusters once I passed 1k. Sorry, but it sounds more like your gripe is that you went and whaled up your Jean and XPool, and you don't like that there's still a poor man's option that can still be competitive in high-end PvP.

Unknown

I don't have any gripes based on what I whaled. I enjoy my ant-man, and my Jean and my Xpool. The game is fun and I enjoy trying different characters. If I wanted to whale a Hulkbuster I could have easily done that by now... good try though.

I am specifically referring to the meta of PVP teams. I am not sure what PVP you were looking at (maybe nefarious?) but Fist busters are ALWAYS up there. Around 1k I can refresh over and over and the only ones that have 40+ points seem to be fist busters.

I understand players will always go for the fastest, and that is to be expected. But there shouldn't be a clear winner in speed. Think of it from a financial perspective for them. How are you going to sell new characters if the existing ones already do the job better? The speed should be slower so that more teams are possible.

Also, Unreal, I am not referring to defense. I take down plenty of Fist buster teams, they aren't scary. (sometimes I even beat them with Ant-man/KP *gasp*). I am talking about offense, where they can finish 2 matches in the time it takes another team to finish one. It makes them one of the most viable PVP teams. I bet if you could see d3's stats you would see that above 1k, a majority of players are running fist buster, especially the ones above 1300.

Lastly, I should change my initial comment. Fistbuster needs to be nerfed IF we want to see a more diverse meta game at the top (this is in response to people wondering why we don't see more ant-man). It isn't exactly ruining the game for anyone, it just makes it less diverse. With over 50 3/4* characters you would think we would see more diversity at the top.

Unknown

If Fistbuster is so ubiquitous in high-end PVP, why do I often have to search for (easy-to-beat) Fistbuster teams with big points when most of the 70+ point teams in my queue are running Jeanbuster or 2 buffed 4*s or something else? You do still see Fistbusters in the 1300+ point range, but they don't dominate the landscape.

Unknown

Deilinvega wrote:

gimmicky

someone introduce the MTG archetypes

Vhailorx wrote:

Deilinvega wrote:

I noticed simple fact. The more fun and more gimmicky characters are, the more useless they seem in PvP speed rush meta, compared to straight feedXcolor-oneshotenemy-rinse&repeat3times characters that every top player use.

Somehow puzzles stopped being about fun and puzzles and became about speed and minimal effort. As someone who collected those gimmicky characters, like Quicksilver or IW I feel... Obsolate.

I still plan to max Ant-Man (Someday. If I actually manage to regulary reach 1000 points in PvP to get covers) because he seems fun. Maybe I will spend more times on PvE then, since gimmicky and tricky characters ar at ridiculous disatvantage in PvP.

This is very true, and is a big weakness in the design of the game.

PvP is clearly the best reward:time spent ratio, but it is a very very stripped down version the game, demanding speed and reliability over almost anything else.

Would love to see something like a better-ai-equipped true pve mode where difficulty, rather than competition was the primary check on rewards. But given how much people complain about the gauntlet, I doubt such a mode,would go over well with the player base.

it wouldn't be a weakness if there were more to do besides "get the other team to 0 life"

barrok wrote:

Deilinvega wrote:

I noticed simple fact. The more fun and more gimmicky characters are, the more useless they seem in PvP speed rush meta, compared to straight feedXcolor-oneshotenemy-rinse&repeat3times characters that every top player use.

Somehow puzzles stopped being about fun and puzzles and became about speed and minimal effort. As someone who collected those gimmicky characters, like Quicksilver or IW I feel... Obsolate.

I still plan to max Ant-Man (Someday. If I actually manage to regulary reach 1000 points in PvP to get covers) because he seems fun. Maybe I will spend more times on PvE then, since gimmicky and tricky characters ar at ridiculous disatvantage in PvP.

I will keep saying this, but Fistbuster needs to be nerfed. Not because the combo is ultra broken, but because it is the only viable 1300+ pvp team composition because of the speed. We need other relevant PVP builds (I have used Ant-man and Kingpin and it's a blast, but a little slow) and to do that they need to slow down the fastest builds. So many characters would have a home if Fistbuster didn't exist (or wasn't as fast).

they dont nerf or buff anymore, they just introduce new counter characters or better versions, look at 1*Spidey 4*Iron man

Unknown

raisinbman wrote:

Deilinvega wrote:

gimmicky

someone introduce the MTG archetypes

You mean... ccccombo My least favorite archetype in Magic (though my favorite archetype in MPQ). Ant-man is a fun combo character.

simonsez

barrok wrote:

I am not sure what PVP you were looking at (maybe nefarious?) but Fist busters are ALWAYS up there. Around 1k I can refresh over and over and the only ones that have 40+ points seem to be fist busters.

Maybe we're in different shards. Seriously, in the DD event that just ended, everything in S1 was some combination of KP, GT, XDP, JG and HB. And HB was the least common.

simonsez

Oh for ****'s sake, another thread gets **** on...

Unknown

barrok wrote:

Also, Unreal, I am not referring to defense. I take down plenty of Fist buster teams, they aren't scary. (sometimes I even beat them with Ant-man/KP *gasp*). I am talking about offense, where they can finish 2 matches in the time it takes another team to finish one. It makes them one of the most viable PVP teams. I bet if you could see d3's stats you would see that above 1k, a majority of players are running fist buster, especially the ones above 1300.

My comments were worded for defense, but still ring for offense - even if 'adjusted' - they will still pick whomever is fastest. Before Fistbuster we have XF/GT, before that we had Sentry Bombing. Right now, people actually use GSBW - but that's strictly because of speed. Kill Fistbuster and be prepared for the rise of the GSBW teams with maybe a second team built around JG just to counter them.

I'm not really against your over-arching point, I would love for my diverse roster to be even stronger for being diverse, but you know what - with the boosted format - they ARE stronger. I stopped worrying about trying to get everyone to 166, got everyone to at least 120, and pretty much every PvP I can field a team of level 200+ characters. And while offensive speed is the most important thing right now, there is still something to be said for defense and not needing to shield. The Daredevil PvP I was able to go unshielded until 900, at which point the only reason I got picked on was in my desperation to get to 900 and call it a night, I used a non-boosted team (no more health packs) and lost a good 150 in the last hour as that was my last team.

so sure Fistbuster can be annoying to feel inferior to at times, but it doesn't affect the economics, new players don't 'sniff' over 1k, it is not hard to beat, it can fold pretty easily on defense due to IF's health, etc.
- Unreall

Unknown

Agreed with all of your points

To bring it back to Ant-Man, hopefully he can find a home somewhere. The only reason I wanted him was to pair him with Carnage and that didn't work out as well as I had hoped.

Though, it is still plenty satisfying to smack someone for 10k

Unknown

barrok wrote:

Agreed with all of your points

To bring it back to Ant-Man, hopefully he can find a home somewhere. The only reason I wanted him was to pair him with Carnage and that didn't work out as well as I had hoped.

Though, it is still plenty satisfying to smack someone for 10k

antman i think just like captain falcon needs a good partner....and since they keep vomiting out characters there's a good chance we'll get one

Unknown

barrok wrote:

Agreed with all of your points

To bring it back to Ant-Man, hopefully he can find a home somewhere. The only reason I wanted him was to pair him with Carnage and that didn't work out as well as I had hoped.

Though, it is still plenty satisfying to smack someone for 10k

He's still on my short list of 4* covers I actually try for. I've got XF and IW covered, Fury is at 9 I think, the rest are 5 covers or less. Top priority is still PX followed by IMHB for obvious reasons, followed by 4P, then it's Antman and Fisk. I'm not even going to bother with JG for a while...
- Unreall

Phaserhawk

no more nerfs. As strong as Fistbuster is, by themselves they aren't scary. I mean Thor and X-Force could hands down dominate by themselves, but have you played against a Hulkbuster without any accelerators? He's not that great. I went against a Hulkbuster/Jean/Deadpool not too long ago. I left Hulkbuster for last, he only got his blue off against me, and his red after a cheating AI last ditch effort to win. Without black and attack tiles he's pretty tame

Unknown

Phaserhawk wrote:

no more nerfs. As strong as Fistbuster is, by themselves they aren't scary. I mean Thor and X-Force could hands down dominate by themselves, but have you played against a Hulkbuster without any accelerators? He's not that great. I went against a Hulkbuster/Jean/Deadpool not too long ago. I left Hulkbuster for last, he only got his blue off against me, and his red after a cheating AI last ditch effort to win. Without black and attack tiles he's pretty tame

YEY PHASERHAWK SAID NO MORE NERFS MY CHARACTERS ARE SAFE

simonsez

Phaserhawk wrote:

no more nerfs.

Who are you, and what have you done with Phaserhawk?

sc0ville

simonsez wrote:

Phaserhawk wrote:

no more nerfs.

Who are you, and what have you done with Phaserhawk?

He probably left his account logged in at the library.