Is the Vault Working for You? Vault Efficiency

Hayek · July 2015

That math has the newest odds and costs from the Venom heroic page.

slidecage · July 2015

250 HP and 2 star today still love the new vault

Nick441234 · July 2015

Not impressed so far. I've had one 1500 iso reward but everything else has been 2*'s.

cletus1985 · July 2015

I've pulled a 4* and 1,000 HP, so I can't complain at all about the vault.

MarvelDestiny · July 2015

El Satanno wrote:

I'm going to back up Ducky on this one. Dauthi, you seem to be griping because this system doesn't meet your expectations. That doesn't make it "inaccessible" nor does it make it any less than what we were told. Your claims in this thread are either misleading or outright false.

I agree and disagree with you.

On one hand I combed through the Vault today and assuming both the Sweet and Savory vaults are set up the same for everyone the new combined odds for a 3 or 4

is 12.3% which is up from 10% under the old Taco token system. That's 2.3% higher or a 23% increase from the old system. 23% sounds super awesome doesn't it? Looks good on paper, right? Plus the odds increase as you pull, who wouldn't view this as an improvement? In my opinion, the devs definitely met their stated goals.

Unfortunately the experience just doesn't compare. Under the old token system every cover of every character had an equal chance. For example, any given 3

would have, say, a 0.6% pull rate and, theoretically, each cover of that character would have an equal pull rate. With the new improved Vault charaters are not equally represented. For example, Cyclops has 4 yellow, 2 black, and 2 red in my current Vault (no way, no how am I gonna waste ONE THOUSAND HP to refresh the Vault). Most characters in the Vault have equally lopsided representation, some don't even have all covers available (for example, 2

Bullseye green is not in my Vault), and other characters are completely absent. The Vault is diluted with iso and health packs in their place. Again assuming the setup is similar in all cases, the odds start at 24.6% to pull either iso or health--1 in 4--and as Dauthi has said, the odds don't change significantly barring stockpiling tokens till doomsday.

I could ramble on but suffice it to say the Vault is not better than the old system.

scottee · July 2015

MarvelDestiny wrote:

El Satanno wrote:

I'm going to back up Ducky on this one. Dauthi, you seem to be griping because this system doesn't meet your expectations. That doesn't make it "inaccessible" nor does it make it any less than what we were told. Your claims in this thread are either misleading or outright false.

I agree and disagree with you.

On one hand I combed through the Vault today and assuming both the Sweet and Savory vaults are set up the same for everyone the new combined odds for a 3 or 4 is 12.3% which is up from 10% under the old Taco token system. That's 2.3% higher or a 23% increase from the old system. 23% sounds super awesome doesn't it? Looks good on paper, right? Plus the odds increase as you pull, who wouldn't view this as an improvement? In my opinion, the devs definitely met their stated goals.

Unfortunately the experience just doesn't compare. Under the old token system every cover of every character had an equal chance. For example, any given 3 would have, say, a 0.6% pull rate and, theoretically, each cover of that character would have an equal pull rate. With the new improved Vault charaters are not equally represented. For example, Cyclops has 4 yellow, 2 black, and 2 red in my current Vault (no way, no how am I gonna waste ONE THOUSAND HP to refresh the Vault). Most characters in the Vault have equally lopsided representation, some don't even have all covers available (for example, 2 Bullseye green is not in my Vault), and other characters are completely absent. The Vault is diluted with iso and health packs in their place. Again assuming the setup is similar in all cases, the odds start at 24.6% to pull either iso or health--1 in 4--and as Dauthi has said, the odds don't change significantly barring stockpiling tokens till doomsday.

I could ramble on but suffice it to say the Vault is not better than the old system.

But knowledge is power. If there's covers you want, you use the tokens. If not, you save the tokens till the odds are more in your favor.

MarvelDestiny · July 2015

scottee wrote:

But knowledge is power. If there's covers you want, you use the tokens. If not, you save the tokens till the odds are more in your favor.

Yeah, I agree. And 10 thumbs-up on Hayek's post regarding the unspoken positives of the Vault. (Man, wish I could've upvoted him more.)

Dauthi has some good points too and shouldn't be slammed for expressing them. I see the good and bad about the Vault and I am still firmly in the "this is a downgrade" camp. To me the Vault is an inferior watered-down version of the regular token system. That said, I realize it's a work in progress and that D3 is usually uber conservative with changes so I'm waiting to see what the final version will look like.

Malcrof · July 2015

this independence day vault is not doing me any good..

Vhailorx · July 2015

MarvelDestiny wrote:

El Satanno wrote:

I'm going to back up Ducky on this one. Dauthi, you seem to be griping because this system doesn't meet your expectations. That doesn't make it "inaccessible" nor does it make it any less than what we were told. Your claims in this thread are either misleading or outright false.

I agree and disagree with you.

<snip>

I could ramble on but suffice it to say the Vault is not better than the old system.

You are basically correct right up until the end. the vault system is better than the old system because the odds of getting desirable covers are slightly (there are more 3* covers in tacos overall, and 4* covers too for the first time). It's just not much better because, as you and dauthi and others have pointed out, with 300 items and only 10 tokens per 5 days, the odds just don't improve very much unless you stockpile or buy packs. Your point about certain colors not being in the vault is basically moot, since it is (as of now) easy to reset the vault before opening any tokens to ensure a desirable reward set.

But the end result is that rather than a revolutionary new system, for the vast majority of use-cases the vault is basically just the old system with new skin (and animations that take WAY too long).

(and of course the devs have said that the vault system may be tweaked in light of their early data. My comments are immediately obsolete if the taco vaults switch to 50 rewards instead of 300, or if the daily quest started rewarding more than just 10 tokens every 5 days, or if more desirable rewards were added to the vaults, or some combination of the above)

Raffoon · July 2015

Vhailorx wrote:

MarvelDestiny wrote:

El Satanno wrote:

I'm going to back up Ducky on this one. Dauthi, you seem to be griping because this system doesn't meet your expectations. That doesn't make it "inaccessible" nor does it make it any less than what we were told. Your claims in this thread are either misleading or outright false.

I agree and disagree with you.

<snip>

I could ramble on but suffice it to say the Vault is not better than the old system.

You are basically correct right up until the end. the vault system is better than the old system because the odds of getting desirable covers are slightly (there are more 3* covers in tacos overall, and 4* covers too for the first time). It's just not much better because, as you and dauthi and others have pointed out, with 300 items and only 10 tokens per 5 days, the odds just don't improve very much unless you stockpile or buy packs. Your point about certain colors not being in the vault is basically moot, since it is (as of now) easy to reset the vault before opening any tokens to ensure a desirable reward set.

But the end result is that rather than a revolutionary new system, for the vast majority of use-cases the vault is basically just the old system with new skin (and animations that take WAY too long).

(and of course the devs have said that the vault system may be tweaked in light of their early data. My comments are immediately obsolete if the taco vaults switch to 50 rewards instead of 300, or if the daily quest started rewarding more than just 10 tokens every 5 days, or if more desirable rewards were added to the vaults, or some combination of the above)

Yeah, basically this. The odds are better than before, so it's technically "better".

The disappointing thing is that the deadpool version doesn't really take advantage of the "Vault" aspect because the pool of 300 is just too big to make the increasing odds really matter without hoarding for months.

The Independence Vault is much better, even though only 9 tokens can be earned overall. At least each pull makes a somewhat noticeable increase in the odds for the other items.

El Satanno · July 2015

It seems like most of us, in one way or another, are on the same page. In my opinion it's like this (mostly):

The Vault is a marginal/small improvement over the old taco tokens.
Having transparency for the rewards remaining is good.
Health packs are good prizes (even though the whole health pack inventory is a mess).
The Vault is not the significant improvement we were hoping for or led to believe it would be.
Everything is still grossly overpriced.
The distribution of rewards within the Vault is frequently lopsided (ie: 5 of the same color for a character, same character appearing too often, many characters refuse to appear).
Vault animations take way too long.
We're not getting enough Moonsto...I mean Bagman covers.

Am I missing anything?

Honestly, this shouldn't really be a surprise. As many have pointed out before and will again, Demiurge is crazy stingy with their reward structure. So we should not reasonably expect changes for most of that list above. Maybe we can at least yell about the animation time? Personally I like that flair but it would nice to be able to tap through it like for the regular rewards.

Dauthi · July 2015

Dauthi wrote:

halirin wrote:

I have to disagree. A .1% increase in drop rate is significant if you remember that you're talking about opening multiple tokens at once. These small differences add up to much bigger chances in getting at least one 4* when you look at cumulative probability instead of marginal probability. I have a post with some calculations that shows you the numbers behind that claim.

Also, I wanted to point out a mistake that people keep making. This change to the vault didn't increase the odds of a DDQ 4* in a given week (if you spend all 10 tacos) from 9.56% to 9.7% (because yes, the difference between drawing with/without replacement is small for ten tokens). The change increased the odds from 0% to 9.7%. Wowza!

I pat you on the back, sir. As I stated to begin with, math isn't my forte, but at the very least I got those more capable to pull out their calculators

If that all checks out the numbers aren't as bad as expected, though (if I am reading your numbers right) saving 170 tokens is not only the sweet spot for maximizing the Vault, it also gives you a 90% chance to get a 4*. That is pretty safe overall. The problem now is saving tokens, because we have to save double. 170 tokens is 5 1/2 months to hit that sweet spot

No response, so I am assuming this is correct. If you have 3 items in the vault you need, you should save for about 5 1/2 months to get a decent statistical chance. Am I crazy to think this is still ridiculous? Yeah, I saved DDQ tokens before, but not to this extent.

DFiPL · July 2015

I like the concept of the Vault. I definitely like the addition of the 1500 ISO-8 rewards. So much rather pull one of those than a 2* at this point in my roster transition.

Classing the rewards as 2* vs "everything else," I've pulled four of "everything else" from 15 tokens on PC so far: three

covers (all usable) and 1500 ISO. The other 11 were 2*. So at this point, my 2* pulls from taco tokens have been higher than the odds would lead me to expect.

On mobile, I'm 5/11. Six 2*, a

cover, 6500 ISO, and ten health packs.

Total of 9/26 from the Taco Vault, which is slightly lower than expected odds, but small sample size.

1/2 on the Independence Vault (Steam) with the 3* cover pulled being unusable. 1/2 on the IV (mobile) with the 3* being usable, but different odds there and all.

We'll see if I still feel this way as time goes on, but right now, the possibility of getting 4* covers (lol) plus the reduced likelihood of 2*, even if that hasn't "borne out" yet in my pulls, I'm happy with.

Unknown · July 2015

If by "working," you mean allowing me to really strengthen my 2* roster, then yes.

Since its inception, 2 pulls a day has netted me 2 X 250HP (awesome for buying those slots for the now necessary 2* essentials) and how ever many 2*s make up the difference. I would have been counting, but it's too depressing. lol

BTW, just realized that needing a 3* character to even earn a token, only to consistently pull 2*s is a bit counterintuitive, and more than a bit frustrating...

DBC

cyineedsn · July 2015

My major gripe with the vault is I didn't really care for hoarding under the old system, so I used my tacos immediately everyday. Obviously, I can still do that now, and more or less have the same odds/an actual longshot chance for 4stars, yay. However, it sure feels like I'm being definitely being punished/less optimal for NOT hoarding tacos, which feels like a downgrade..

Unknown · July 2015

Dauthi wrote:

This leaves players 2 options:

A. Use tokens immediately and forget about waiting. This makes it a better version of what we used to have.
B. Save 600 tokens (300 for both taco types), and pull until you get what you want then continue to save.

So if you want to use the system, you will be waiting (600/365*2) .821 years, so about 10 months.

I would bet real money that when we reach the 150 token milestone for each store, a change to the store will come out of nowhere and we will either have to gamble for rewards we don't even need, or do what we did the last time we had stockpiled tokens, and draw blind without knowing what the rewards are. I really, really doubt they will allow players get to 600 tokens and draw everything in a store. 10 months is a long time for no changes at all to the store.

Unknown · July 2015

This week I obtained 4

from my ID Vault. Got both and decided to reset the vault and got both again. I dunno if it's just me or what but I've been getting a ton of

from these vaults.

Malcrof · July 2015

mango_sentinel wrote:

This week I obtained 4 from my ID Vault. Got both and decided to reset the vault and got both again. I dunno if it's just me or what but I've been getting a ton of from these vaults.

Boo... actually, happy for you. I myself and working on depleting all 2*'s before i pull anything else. So far, so good.

_RiO_ · July 2015

Malcrof wrote:

this independence day vault is not doing me any good..

"Random is random", so don't give up; with just 50 tokens in the vault atleast the odds will turn in your favor sooner than on the taco vault.

mango_sentinel wrote:

This week I obtained 4 from my ID Vault. Got both and decided to reset the vault and got both again. I dunno if it's just me or what but I've been getting a ton of from these vaults.

I actually pulled the 1000 HP on my first round of tokens...

Unknown · July 2015

_RiO_ wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

this independence day vault is not doing me any good..

"Random is random", so don't give up; with just 50 tokens in the vault atleast the odds will turn in your favor sooner than on the taco vault.

mango_sentinel wrote:

This week I obtained 4 from my ID Vault. Got both and decided to reset the vault and got both again. I dunno if it's just me or what but I've been getting a ton of from these vaults.

I actually pulled the 1000 HP on my first round of tokens...

Debatable on whether the odds really shift, depends greatly on how much in there is useful to you. There are only 4 items in my vault that would be helpful to me. My odds started at 8%. If I got all 18 tokens (9 PvP, 9 daily deals) and missed on the first 17, my odds on #18 would only be 12.1%

Is the Vault Working for You? Vault Efficiency

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