Is the Vault Working for You? Vault Efficiency

Unknown

After thinking about the vault a little more, I think a more flexible system would be preferable. They should reduce the absurd 1000HP reset cost to 50-100HP and lock the vault so it doesn't refresh itself, unless a player uses the refresh button or all the rewards are claimed. This would allow the players to spend their tokens daily, as they win them, and they wouldn't have to wait 5 months to guarantee a cover drop, since the rewards aren't going anywhere.

We could decide to refresh if we were lucky and got all the rewards we wanted after spending only 50-60 tokens, but this isn't different from hoarding 300 tokens, spend 50 of them, win everything you need and then refresh to spend the remaining tokens in the next vault. It would feel more rewarding and the player would be able to use the covers they win 1-149 days earlier. I understand why the devs wouldn't want that for the player, as they want them to spend HP on covers, but this suggestion is made in order to make the game more fun and rewarding for the players and not the devs.

This system would also guarantee that the players will pay 50-100HP, unless they decide to pull every single cover, so I would bet it would siphon some HP from the player accounts. Compared to this, I doubt anyone will use the 1000 HP refresh when they can wait a few days for the vault to refresh itself.

Pessi

To be fair to this system it won't change the way I used Taco's before. I opened them as I got them, but I have a large number of 3*'s that I need covers for, so saving them doesn't seem a viable option.

This would change however when I only need a few 3* covers, then I think this will shine as I won't cash in until the odds for me getting what I need are greatest. Throw in a lucky 4* and this is a vast improvement.

My two complaints would be:
1) The sheer volume of iso and health pack rewards, but these won't go unusued.
2) The time it takes to cash in, the vault door animation looks rubbish.

Considering the pro's and con's, this is an improvement. I pulled a today, so odds are in my favour so far..

Unknown

I am in the minority because my taco pulls were terrible. I mean awful. I mean atrocious. Since the first day of DDP I pulled two gold covers and both were 1k hp (I hate to complain but 0 3*'s in how many months?).

Since Sunday when the vault opened I have pulled 3 3*'s and an Xforce in just three days. Whether I could use the tokens not withstanding, that is already 100% more gold tokens than I received before. I liked the odds so much I actually spent HP to buy 40 of the new tokens. I got a ton of Health packs but I also received the 5k iso and a lot of 1500 iso and 4 more 3* tokens.

I like this better because if I decide to buy the tokens I know what I am getting into. I can literally do the math and probability on whatever items I am trying to get.

optimus2861

There is a bit of a double-edged sword with the increasing-odds bit.

Let's take the 250 HP reward as an example. Old tacos, the odds were 4%, each & every pull, that you'd get it.

Now, if you pull that reward on your first taco, the odds of you pulling it on your next one decrease to 3.67% (11/299).

Similar math on the 3* covers.

Once you pull one good reward, you're incentivized to stop pulling and let the odds reset. That seems to be a curious design choice. We'll see how it works out.

slidecage

getterwing wrote:

As a player who play frequently but haven't spent a single $ in this game (I have 52 character slots and today I will be getting the #180 daily award, a X-fore Wolverine), I have no compliant about the Vault, because I never expected it to be much better than the old one.

In fact, it is a little bit better than the old one (looking at the numbers), I am happy with it. (although the last few days I could only got 2* covers as usual)

i spent 50 bucks and have 75 slots and have to say so far i like the vault more then the old one.

6 tokens would gave me 1250 ISO (6 2 stars)

so far i grabbed

1 green punisher
3x 1500 ISO (4500)
2x mag red (500)


so old 1250 ISO new 1 3 star and 5000 ISO i take that any day

Vhailorx

Haven't read the whole thread, just the first page.

My general take is that the vault is something of an improvement over the old taco system.

BUT, the key feature of the vault, as advertised by the devs, is the increased odds of prime rewards for each less-desirable pull. And that feature is essentially meaningless for most users because the pool of rewards is too large relative to the 10 tokens given for each 5-day rotation. That means that the only way to truly take advantage of the vault is to spend on packs, or hoard tokens for even longer than was generally necessary in the old system. And that makes the vault feel a bit like a cash grab cloaked as a pro-player change.

It's a mixed bag honestly, and probably a net gain for thenpkayers. Nevertheless, I would like to see the devs tweak the odds a bit, maybe increasing the number of premium rewards or decreasing the total number of rewards in each vault.

firethorne

I'm not sure if I'm disappointed with the vault. I absolutely am disappointed by the communication.

Does the vault reset every week? If so, then it wasn't what the devs promoted as a system where playing will give you a good route to good rewards. Yes, the addition of 4*s is obviously a step up from the old tacos. But a 1% chance raising to a 1.5% chance before the vault resets just is completely out of line with the picture they originally painted.

Now, maybe I've completely misinterpreted what the time left countdown means. Again, I haven't seen any official sources explain. If it doesn't reset, and after 150 days, I'm guaranteed to get everything in the vault (assuming daily play), I'd be happy. The time before reset and the number of items in it just have to be in sync. If it is just a week before reset, I'd be happier with standard heroic tokens.

lymang

I'm still working on my 3* characters and I like the look of the Vault much better, it lets me see what I've eliminated. I'm not saving, most of the time I can use whatever I get from the Vault, if for nothing else than selling 2* covers for more ISO, which I'm perpetually in need of. I've gotten three 3* covers just this week already, all of which I needed.

Sure, I'd rather have lots of ISO or 3*/4* covers but it's a reward, and I'll just take it.
I see how more advanced players working on 4* might think this was **** but me, I love the new vault system and am happy with it.

Stax the Foyer

Dauthi wrote:

If my logic is erroneous and I am lying, please explain how. I would love to be able to refute it, but I can't refute claims by themselves.

Do you believe a .1% increase in drops is significant? From a statistical standpoint, a drop going from 1% to 1.1% has virtually no sway in your drop rate. That is what you get if you wait 2 months. That is a 1/1000 bonus chance to pull the desired cover, meaning if you had 1000 tokens, you are likely to get it (I am not sure how else to explain this). The point we are both trying to get through is that if a system has a ridiculously low effect rate, .1% in that case, why should it be there at all?

The logic isn't erroneous, it's just predicated on the worst-case scenario, and it's only concerned with 4*s. Your concern is, in effect, with the size of the vault. Focusing on the marginal value of the next pull is somewhat misleading (see your figure of 1000 tokens to get one 4* cover, when we all know that 300 tokens guarantees all three 4* covers in the vault). It's the total expected value of the cumulative pulls to that point that matters more.

Personally, I'm not going to be saving up 300 tokens, because 100% reliability isn't worth it to me. (Plus, once you get those 300 tokens, you still have to wait for a vault that's worth clearing out.)

Assuming that the vault resets every 5 days, I'll be stockpiling tokens until there's a combination of useful 3* and 4* covers in a vault. When that happens, I'll pull until I'm out of those tokens or I have a run of good luck that pushes the effective value of the next pull low enough for me to stop. Sometimes I'll come out fairly empty handed, but overall, I'm going to get more out of this than I would the old taco system, which makes me happy.

DrStrange-616

All I know is that there are something like 20 Moonstones in my vault. That's an automatic fail.

But seriously, it is definitely not what I was led to believe it was. There are some good "fixes" here. I hope the devs listen to the constructive criticism.

I hate hoarding tokens, but I'd be foolish not to with this system. And the idea of having to hoard for months is depressing. I know I don't *have* to, but they've designed it in such a way that I'm rewarded if I do.

I pray for a vault that doesn't reset every 5 days, that has half as many things (no dupes) and maybe I can squeeze out one more taco from the DPD. I know that's a lot to ask. So, maybe 2 out of 3?

Pylgrim

This is what happens when people do not understand maths. How could anyone think that a pull from visible, exhaustible and limited pool is not only not better but actually worse than a pull from a virtually infinite pool is something beyond me. Even if you don't stockpile (which is a more sensible, but completely optional approach) pulling 1 out of 300 unique items is a much, much better deal than pulling 1 out of nowhere with a fixed chance. The way chance works, you could theoretically get bad pulls for the rest of your lifetime and never enjoy the years of good pulls that could have followed, evening the odds to their expected averages in the long (eternal) run. Obviously that's tremendously improbable, but goes to show how unreliable that system is.

The vault not only gives you better odds in general, it also allows you to game the system by exhausting the odds through accumulated pulls. Moreover, the fact that the pool is visible means that you get to choose a highly favourable vault to get the most bang for your buck. As a random example, I have opened three 4*s in the whole 2015 so far from tokens. Every single one of them has been for one of the few colour covers which I already have maxed, for the only three characters I have 10+ covers in 4* land, while most of my other 4*s languish with 5 or less covers (all of which I've earned, never pulled) . If there had been a vault for those tokens and I had stockpiled them these 6 months, I'd have 4-5 4*s which I'd had made sure to draw from pools with covers I actually need. There's win from every possible vantage point.

_RiO_

Wolarsen wrote:

I mostly agree with Dauthi on this subject: the pool size is way too big for a 2-per-day pull affecting significantly the chances. The vault has potential, but as far as I know will make very little difference regarding old system.

All the pull percentages are remaining more or less the same.

• You get some additional health-packs, which are worthless if you don't play enough to spend them, but otherwise are welcome.
• You get more ISO than under the old model.
• You get an insignificantly small increase in the odds to pull any 3*, but slightly lowered odds of pulling any particularly targeted 3*.
• You get an insiginficantly small chance to pull one 4*, requiring close to a full year of playing (assuming you won't have all the required 3* characters needed to get both taco tokens each day) for one guaranteed pull. For comparison: during that period, you'd have gotten well over ten times that amount of 4* covers, just from daily rewards, making this feature truly insignificant.

The biggest and only significant difference in the updated system lies with increased conversion from the poor gambling addicts that don't get the math behind the odds and just keep on playing and playing because "the odds keep on getting better". The system even has a pretty spinning roulette added to further fuel the suspense and adrenaline rush of the gamble.


Let's talk a bit about that roulette animation as well!

Honestly; it does not seem to do anything else than provide some fuel for suspense through the illusion of power over the result.
The roulette spins in a randomized order and after clicking/tapping spins down to a full stop over a slightly randomized number of additional steps. You get zero deterministic influence over where the needle will stop. Ofcourse, that's only something you notice when you take a step back and look at it rationally. That's not something someone with gambling addiction would easily notice through a hazed gaze...


The Vault was a nice idea in concept. The Vault was presented nicely to us. But as always; it's still a wolf in sheeps' clothes.

Vhailorx

Pylgrim wrote:

This is what happens when people do not understand maths. How could anyone think that a pull from visible, exhaustible and limited pool is not only not better but actually worse than a pull from a virtually infinite pool is something beyond me. Even if you don't stockpile (which is a more sensible, but completely optional approach) pulling 1 out of 300 unique items is a much, much better deal than pulling 1 out of nowhere with a fixed chance. The way chance works, you could theoretically get bad pulls for the rest of your lifetime and never enjoy the years of good pulls that could have followed, evening the odds to their expected averages in the long (eternal) run. Obviously that's tremendously improbable, but goes to show how unreliable that system is.

The vault not only gives you better odds in general, it also allows you to game the system by exhausting the odds through accumulated pulls. Moreover, the fact that the pool is visible means that you get to choose a highly favourable vault to get the most bang for your buck. As a random example, I have opened three 4*s in the whole 2015 so far from tokens. Every single one of them has been for one of the few colour covers which I already have maxed, for the only three characters I have 10+ covers in 4* land, while most of my other 4*s languish with 5 or less covers (all of which I've earned, never pulled) . If there had been a vault for those tokens and I had stockpiled them these 6 months, I'd have 4-5 4*s which I'd had made sure to draw from pools with covers I actually need. There's win from every possible vantage point.

Sure, the vault system is a slight improvement over an infinite pool of rewards because you can target particular covers. But that's not why most people are expressing concerns. The problem is that the vault pools are sufficiently large that the advantages of the vault system cannot be leveraged with only 10 vault tokens. So the defining characteristic of the vault (as advertised to players by the devs) is only accessible to those who buy packs or hoard tokens. It's a bit disappointing.

If the vault resets every 5 days, then the odds are poor enough that one could open each vault token as it is earned and never recieve a 3* or 4* reward. So for people who use that strategy, the vault amounts to little more than a new animation and slightly increased token odds. That's not bad in a vacuum, but the vault was sold a key piece of improving the 4* transition.

scottee

One, the math is a bit misrepresented. It's not wrong. But looking at the difference of an individual pool after cumulative pools is a bit dishonest. Of course .1% looks insignificant on a single pool. You care more about the area under the curve than the y value.

Two, people are missing the completely exploitable part of the Vault. You can decide when to open tokens and when not to. In the current vault, there are exactly zero covers I need. So guess what? I can wait til the next reset. If there's a set of covers you want, and you pull one, of course your percentages go down. But guess what? You can stop pulling after that.

Saving for 150 days and opening all 300 tokens at once, yes, it guarantees that you get all three 4* covers. But it also completely negates the exploitable aspect of the Vault. But hey, it's new, people need a guide written for them before they know how to use it.

(Also, the devs made it clear this isn't the final iteration and that it is open to adjustment in the future.)

firethorne

scottee wrote:

Two, people are missing the completely exploitable part of the Vault. You can decide when to open tokens and when not to. In the current vault, there are exactly zero covers I need. So guess what? I can wait til the next reset.

Assuming "sweet" tokens will be usable on "spicy" vault (or whatever the next flavor will be). We don't know 100% if that is true.

scottee

firethorne wrote:

scottee wrote:

Two, people are missing the completely exploitable part of the Vault. You can decide when to open tokens and when not to. In the current vault, there are exactly zero covers I need. So guess what? I can wait til the next reset.

Assuming "sweet" tokens will be usable on "spicy" vault (or whatever the next flavor will be). We don't know 100% if that is true.

Even if there's 5 separate tokens, you just wait till the next "sweet" rotation.

Stax the Foyer

_RiO_ wrote:

[*]You get an insiginficantly small chance to pull one 4*, requiring close to a full year of playing (assuming you won't have all the required 3* characters needed to get both taco tokens each day) for one guaranteed pull. For comparison: during that period, you'd have gotten well over ten times that amount of 4* covers, just from daily rewards, making this feature truly insignificant.[/list]

Well, if you hoard for one year you'll have gotten six 4*s, three from each set of tokens, with some level of control over which ones you get. It's still not amazing, but it's significantly better than presented there.

Odds are you won't have to burn all of those tokens to get them, as well, so your next Vault Fiesta can happen sooner, if you go that route.

firethorne

scottee wrote:

firethorne wrote:

scottee wrote:

Two, people are missing the completely exploitable part of the Vault. You can decide when to open tokens and when not to. In the current vault, there are exactly zero covers I need. So guess what? I can wait til the next reset.

Assuming "sweet" tokens will be usable on "spicy" vault (or whatever the next flavor will be). We don't know 100% if that is true.

Even if there's 5 separate tokens, you just wait till the next "sweet" rotation.

We don't know if it is 5, could be more, could be less. If it is 5 then it will be over a year before you collect enough be able to empty any single vault in one go.

thesamuraipig

Stax the Foyer wrote:

Well, if you hoard for one year you'll have gotten six 4*s, three from each set of tokens, with some level of control over which ones you get. It's still not amazing, but it's significantly better than presented there.

Odds are you won't have to burn all of those tokens to get them, as well, so your next Vault Fiesta can happen sooner, if you go that route.

This...exactly. It might take all 300 tokens, but that would be the worst luck ever.

I get the point from people that yes...10 tokens in 300...you're not making much of a dent in the vault. Your odds aren't increasing that much. However, I think there is so much positive in this system, that hey...I am thanking the Devs regardless.

I was playing before we had DDQ. I was in a very early 2* to 3* transition and made the mistake of leveling my Xforce (not completely covered) and Mohawk Storm. (This was before I found all you fine people here at the Forum and learned that was a big no-no.) But when they brought DDQ in...that transition got so much easier...as I suspect that it had for a lot of people in almost every situation. A better shot at building my threes, more ISO and taco tokens?? YES PLEASE!

Now...they've added more benefits to those tokens:
A shot at 4*'s.
A clear picture and some control of your drawing pool.
And for Hoarders...yes...you can completely hoard your tokens and let's say you hoard all 300 of those things...Let me tell you something: You'll know exactly what you'll get from those pulls. (How many covers, stars...etc) Exactly to the last pull. That certainly wasn't there before. Only the chance.

Those things alone for me? Great, great, great. They weren't there before. Neither was DDQ. I just have a hard time getting my feathers ruffled over what has essentially been a huge game changer...still is...and just got better. Maybe the vault isn't everything you want it to be...but it's there...and it wasn't before.

I'll take it.

Yes, even you Moonstone and health packs. I loves yah.

Der_Lex

It isn't yet, I'm hoarding tokens because my current vault doesn't have anyt 4* or 3* covers I need. Then again, I'd have done the same in an old DDQ week that didn't feature any 3*s I needed covers for.