** Captain America (Steve Rogers) **

Unknown

You already have a level 78 Thor, so probably not. However, as the 2* class is more limited, he'll turn up as the essential more than Vision will in PVE.

--edit after looking at old roster thread

Depends on the rest of your roster and covers. If you already have a usable 3* Cap, then certainly not. If you're still using 1* heroes, he sort of replaces IM35, though Thor or Ares are much better replacements.

TxMoose

depends on your need for roster space. he has his uses but other than goon only nodes, he is outshined by the mainstay ** characters (ares, obw, mags, storm, daken, thor). if you have a covered mags and a Cyclops with some yellow/black, they make a great goon only team that can manage cd tiles very well. some *** characters with the same skillset as lower characters they just copied (i.e. storm, thor) and increased a little here or there. *** cap is loads better - leaps and bounds - actually does damage. ** cap does not do much damage but like I said, can still manage cds like a champ.

wymtime

I would say no. 2* cap is fairly week. What you should do is keep that roster spot for rotating 2* essentials. As you win 2* covers from matches save the ones you don't need until the next PVE. The 2* reward seems to be the next essential character in PVE so you can stock pile covers for the next essential character. I would not recommend putting ISO into them, but having one roster spot to rotate the essential 2* can be very useful especially when you look to make the transition to 3* land. As you transition you will need to start to eliminate some 2* with the cost of roster slots since you will need to open up a lot of them and as you transition it can sometimes be harder to earn the HP consistantly (725 in PVP and good placement in PVE).

This might be a long way off for you, but as you manage roster slots can be helpful.

ronin_san

Captain America (Modern)
2 Star Rarity (Uncommon) Discussion link
At Max Level: HP: 4450 Tile damage: 50/45/39/9/10/11

(Caveat. New HP: 5,586)

Sentinel of Liberty - Yellow 19 AP
Captain America courageously rushes to protect the team’s flank. Transforms 3 chosen basic tiles into Yellow Protect tiles, each with a strength of 13.
Level Upgrades
Level 2 – Increases Protect Strength to 7.
Level 3 – Increases Protect Strength to 8.
Level 4 – Increases Protect Strength to 10.
Level 5 – Transform 4 tiles.
Max Level: Damage reduced by 150 per Protecttile
Star Spangled Avenger - Red 11 AP
The Captain hurls his trusty shield into battle. Hits the target for 50 damage and transforms a chosen basic tile into a 3 turn Countdown tile that returns 8 Red AP.
Level Upgrades
Level 2 – Returns 9 Red AP.
Level 3 – Can target Strike, Protect, Attack, and Web tiles.
Level 4 – Returns 10 Red AP.
Level 5 – Can target any tile.
Max Level: 614 damage
Peacemaker - Blue 12 AP
Captain America gallantly launches his shield at the enemy. Stuns the target for 2 turns and transforms a chosen basic tile into a 3 turn Countdown tile that returns 8 Blue AP.
Level Upgrades
Level 2 – Returns 9 Blue AP.
Level 3 – Can target Strike, Protect, Attack, and Web tiles.
Level 4 – Returns 10 Blue AP.
Level 5 – Can target any tile.

That's the old Cap. Let's talk about the new; how we can rise him from the dregs of 2* land.

Sentinel of Liberty - Yellow 11
Captain America courageously rushes to protect the team’s flank. Convert 3 team-up tiles into Yellow Protect tiles, each with a strength of 13.
Level Upgrades

11 Yellow is attainable. 11 Yellow means I give the yellow a second look. It also makes the ability feasible without going bonkers with the Yellow AP generation mechanic. If color placement generation tiles are truly leaving the game, let's at least go a bit Cyclops and convert team-ups to tiles.


NEW
Star Spangled Avenger. Red. 6 AP.
The damage is unchanged. Instead of returning AP, generate one tile of strength 54. At max level, target any tile.


NEW
Peacemaker. Blue. 9 AP.
Cap's blue stuns the enemy for two turns, and leaves a strength 75 tile. If the stun tile is matched, return 3 blue AP.


What's this do for Cap, right? First and foremost, it reduces the OBNOXIOUS cost of his Shield placement tile. 11, 6, 9 is so much better than 19, 11, 12.
That plus his added health means Cap is a real threat in 2* land.

ErikPeter

Hmm. I like the added health.

Cap isn't good for PvP but he is really, really good in DDQ Enchilada and any long or multi-wave mission. My feelings are mixed. I like your blue the best (but again, I think returning the AP automatically and getting another stun is a better deal the longer/harder the mission is.) Red is a nice compromise, it's twice as usable against AI who might just match away the tile anyway, and ramps up your damage a little if not; but doesn't have the same longevity against mooks. Maybe I'm just being stodgy.

Basically I like all three of these powers but they might not feel like the same character. Cap's amazing at fighting high-level goons, just slow and steady (where the 3* version fixes the slow by making his red do a ton of damage). Your rework is more middle of the road.

Also something to think about: Based on simulations I ran, I believe his yellow would instantly match away one of the Protect tiles about 1/3 of the time. That could be a bit disappointing, but maybe the chance for a cascade would negate that.

Personally, I think the best, simplest change they could give Cap is make "Can target any tile" be at rank 4 on all three powers. Make 5/4/4 viable for each combination and then give a nice perk for rank 5. Or at least let yellow target any tile at rank 5, making 5/5/3 for each combination viable. 19 Yellow would totally be worth it to cover 4 CDs (or Ultron Bombs), plus give you the game-changing defense of those tiles. But would I give up the free AP return of the others (especially keeping in mind the high cost?) Dunno.

I used to be a "5 yellow" fan for Cap but finally came around. It's just too important to have blue and red at 5 for tile destruction. If yellow could also be used to overwrite tiles, I might go back to my old way of thinking. But maybe I'm just too reluctant for change, and we need a more drastic change, like your ideas above.

ronin_san

How about Cap gets a double attack ala Black Widow whenever his shield is on the board (blue attack).

The health is demiurge' decision. And I agree that yellow used to be interesting.

Malcrof

I am all for the AP reduction, but covering up CD tiles would no longer be his specialty.. which is the main reason we use him.

ronin_san

Malcrof wrote:

I am all for the AP reduction, but covering up CD tiles would no longer be his specialty.. which is the main reason we use him.

Oh no. I say that stays; thought I explicitly worded just that. Re-read his in my initial post. At 6 AP, you still get to cover up any tile, get a strike tile in its place.

What Demiurge has been unable to flesh out is Cap WITHOUT his shield. When you watch the first 10 minutes of Captain America: The Winter Soldier, you see Stealth Cap moving and attacking at speed, interacting with and without his shield at haste.

So I actually think if his tile is enabled eg timer tile, he should do AT MINIMUM OBW-like doubletap damage. If he recalls his shield eg destroys the timer tile, he should be able to immediately throw it again.

The easiest thing for Cap to do is throw a powerful punch and hit some unsuspecting chump in the jaw with a ping-ponging Cap shield.


So maybe his should be a passive-active, in that if his shield is deployed, it becomes another ability.

How about: Sentinel of Liberty.
Captain America is known for his shield, but equally for his hand-to-hand combat. If a friendly :timer: tile is in play, Cap goes into Hand-to-hand mode and lets his hands do the talking. All Captain America abilities toggle:

Cap throws two body blows before landing a left hook on his enemy. Deal 550 damage and deplete enemy AP by 1.

:Yellowflag. Cap sets a defensive perimeter before launching a counterattack. Convert 3 :team-up: tiles to :defense: tiles. If these tiles are destroyed, generate two and two AP.

ronin_san

Now look. I get that this makes a 2* way, way too good. But I want a real fighting Cap that's still a mammoth even when he isn't all flashy with abilities.

saintsomebody

ronin-san wrote:

Malcrof wrote:

I am all for the AP reduction, but covering up CD tiles would no longer be his specialty.. which is the main reason we use him.

Oh no. I say that stays; thought I explicitly worded just that. Re-read his in my initial post. At 6 AP, you still get to cover up any tile, get a strike tile in its place.

What Demiurge has been unable to flesh out is Cap WITHOUT his shield. When you watch the first 10 minutes of Captain America: The Winter Soldier, you see Stealth Cap moving and attacking at speed, interacting with and without his shield at haste.

So I actually think if his tile is enabled eg timer tile, he should do AT MINIMUM OBW-like doubletap damage. If he recalls his shield eg destroys the timer tile, he should be able to immediately throw it again.

The easiest thing for Cap to do is throw a powerful punch and hit some unsuspecting chump in the jaw with a ping-ponging Cap shield.


So maybe his should be a passive-active, in that if his shield is deployed, it becomes another ability.

How about: Sentinel of Liberty.
Captain America is known for his shield, but equally for his hand-to-hand combat. If a friendly :timer: tile is in play, Cap goes into Hand-to-hand mode and lets his hands do the talking. All Captain America abilities toggle:

Cap throws two body blows before landing a left hook on his enemy. Deal 550 damage and deplete enemy AP by 1.

:Yellowflag. Cap sets a defensive perimeter before launching a counterattack. Convert 3 :team-up: tiles to :defense: tiles. If these tiles are destroyed, generate two and two AP.

That sounds positively, brokenly overpowered, as much as I would love to see it.

ronin_san

I had another thought while playing the Colossus tourney. What if cap, gets a bonus to damage if NOT on the front; an antithesis of Colossus' , which does extra damage when he is at the front.

"Lead by example, or "rally the troops". Something like, if cap's :blue is in play, and he is not in front, when cap deals match damage or uses an ability, increase the strength all falcon, raise the damage on his red, or even increase stun duration on his blue by one turn.

There are so many ways to make Cap viable.

ronin_san

Had another thought. His yellow generates protect tiles on 5 of-a-kinds unless the shield - stun tile is in play. If that is the case, it generates strike tiles.

Yellow becomes a passive-passive.

His red generates a strike tile on its own. His blue remains a stun but cheaper. You can cover tiles wih red or blue, and he becomes a better fighter. He is good with and without a shield.

Unknown

I like everything about that rework, except he needs a hair more red damage. Just a bit. Over writing tiles and producing strike tiles is great, but you've still got Wolverine over there doing 2884 damage for 12 red, and MNM doing >1000 and gaining up to 25 AP. Plus 3* cap and his 4,000 damage a swing at 11 AP. Damage for 12 AP needs to be ~2,000 so his 6 AP ability should be ~1,000 instead of the miniscule 614. I know the strike tile adds some but I don't think it adds 400 before it dies (although maybe it does, because it is placed). Maybe up the initial damage to 750 or so.

Perhaps reduce Peacemaker's cost to 8, or even 7. He does have to contend with MBW at that level, and a 2 turn stun with a protect tile is hardly worth giving up a 5 turn stun for at the same cost.

This version of Captain America would have a niece at least as a 2* goon swatter, something he is supposed to be and currently isn't because his damage is so laughably low.