Changes To Scoring In Versus Events

aesthetocyst

mohio wrote:

The problem with the cooldown solution is it doesn't solve traedoril's issue of being gang attacked by 4+ people all at once. It *might* help him climb back up in the next 10 minutes if those 4 guys that hit him are the only who would want to hit him, but more likely other guys will just find him and he'll be just as frustrated.

As to his own suggestion of only able to be attacked by one person at a time, sadly that won't work either. Either you would have to limit people to only be in one person's queue, which anyone who's found those 4 people MMR loops can attest, this would be awful, or you would have to somehow lock everyone's player x node when player x is being fought by someone. Can you imagine lining up two high point targets for a shield hop and after your first match someone else is in a match with your second target so you have to wait? Or furiously skip to find anyone worth decent points? Doesn't seem like a fun experience.

A far better solution is one I've seen elsewhere which is capping points lost in a given time. So, for the time of an average match (say 5-6 min) maybe you can only lose 100 points. People hitting you will still gain points like normal but you can't lose more than 100 in any 5 minutes. Its not a perfect solution but it might help people feel less frustrated.

Sure it does. Place the cooldown on the defender's account. Meaning it can't be debited more than once every so many minutes. People can still attack and earn points, just none are removed from the target's scare for a short period. Like a free micro-shield. A mercy rule. Do the same for crediting, and the idea curtails boosting as well, without cutting defense win pts for everyone else.

Considering that he shield mechanism is in place, it should be easier to implement than any limit on "# of attacks in a given time" or "points lost in a given time". How would such a rolling time period be tracked? Can you imagine the complaints and ticketing? Trying to document a complaint? Yikes.

I described the "cooldown" idea here here, and many others have posted a similar idea, for months now:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=30147&start=80#p362756

Unknown

While it seems the majority of MPQ are pleased with the new scoring system changes, it seems quite appearent that this group consists of veterans with solid lvl 166 line-ups. The scoring changes have made it much easier for these vets to get higher scores, but at the same time have destroyed the ability for 2* players to rank > 25.

As a new player entering PvP events it took me a while to find a system that allowed me to score top 10 in all the events last season. My previous system was to enter an event 30 hours out. Use Node 1 to boost my score to 400. Wait 8 hours, and let my score drop to 250 and resetting my MMR to base. Rince and repeat this process 3 times and I would be in the 600's. This process allowed me to always rank in the top 10.

With the new changes ... this system is impossible. I boost to 400, come back 8 hours later and i'm 125. I boost again to 500 and right as I reach the 400's I'm CONSTANTLY attacked. I mean, for every 1 win @ 40 points, I lose 50-60 points. 8 hours out, 24 hours out it doesn't matter. I get near 500 and its the wild west where I'm the juiciest target around. With this new wall at 500, I think I can still maintain my 650 point goal ... but with everyone else all reaching into the 1100's ... I will never rank under 50 again.

These changes to the scoring are so depressing. Its basically saying ... Vets who couldn't figure out how to get a decent score previously are now being rewarded by destroying any chance a non-vet has to rank. Thanks ...

So now I'm thinking ... PvP isn't even worth playing any more. Then I start thinking how incredibly difficult the gauntlet was and well ... PvE isn't really worth playing. Okay, so are the devs trying to say if your not a vet, don't bother trying to get into this game?

mohio

@aesthetocyst, I apologize, I originally read your idea as being a cool down on the attackers side so the same person couldn't queue you again immediately. I've seen this idea bandied about to solve boosting as opposed to the decrease in defensive win points, so I must've just thought this was what you were advocating. It sounds fairly similar to what I suggested, except limiting it to attacks per x minutes as opposed to points per x minutes. I think that idea works fine too. It can perhaps be manipulated, but overall should work well for limiting the feel bad experience of coming out of a match to a huge drop.

aesthetocyst

mohio wrote:

@aesthetocyst, I apologize, I originally read your idea as being a cool down on the attackers side so the same person couldn't queue you again immediately. I've seen this idea bandied about to solve boosting as opposed to the decrease in defensive win points, so I must've just thought this was what you were advocating. It sounds fairly similar to what I suggested, except limiting it to attacks per x minutes as opposed to points per x minutes. I think that idea works fine too. It can perhaps be manipulated, but overall should work well for limiting the feel bad experience of coming out of a match to a huge drop.

Yeah, the exploit would be to risk letting a friend wack you at the start of a hop for a small, known loss, then you proceed hopping on the benefit of the free "shield". Still, I think this would overall be more desirable than the massive losses. Negative experiences like those are so discouraging. Really sticks in the craw. I would think alleviating the massive loses would do much for retention.

SymmeTrey

I really thought these changes would be bad but I actually think they are kind of great. I had basically quit PVP and was only lightly playing PVE. But, after trying Top Gun, I decided to come back and play this season.

I've certainly been critical at times in the past but D3 deserves credit. They made PVP no longer feel like a grind and it feels like roster strength is an advantage rather than a disadvantage. 1k is attainable for a strong roster and you don't need to rely on team boosting tactics to hit it. Well Done.

udonomefoo

jaxboomstick wrote:

While it seems the majority of MPQ are pleased with the new scoring system changes, it seems quite appearent that this group consists of veterans with solid lvl 166 line-ups. The scoring changes have made it much easier for these vets to get higher scores, but at the same time have destroyed the ability for 2* players to rank > 25.

As a new player entering PvP events it took me a while to find a system that allowed me to score top 10 in all the events last season. My previous system was to enter an event 30 hours out. Use Node 1 to boost my score to 400. Wait 8 hours, and let my score drop to 250 and resetting my MMR to base. Rince and repeat this process 3 times and I would be in the 600's. This process allowed me to always rank in the top 10.

With the new changes ... this system is impossible. I boost to 400, come back 8 hours later and i'm 125. I boost again to 500 and right as I reach the 400's I'm CONSTANTLY attacked. I mean, for every 1 win @ 40 points, I lose 50-60 points. 8 hours out, 24 hours out it doesn't matter. I get near 500 and its the wild west where I'm the juiciest target around. With this new wall at 500, I think I can still maintain my 650 point goal ... but with everyone else all reaching into the 1100's ... I will never rank under 50 again.

These changes to the scoring are so depressing. Its basically saying ... Vets who couldn't figure out how to get a decent score previously are now being rewarded by destroying any chance a non-vet has to rank. Thanks ...

So now I'm thinking ... PvP isn't even worth playing any more. Then I start thinking how incredibly difficult the gauntlet was and well ... PvE isn't really worth playing. Okay, so are the devs trying to say if your not a vet, don't bother trying to get into this game?

Hi Jax. I'm speculating a bit here, but I think you're misinterpreting what's happening to your account. I believe that you just graduated from the soft "baby" brackets into the big kid league at the same time that the scoring change took effect so you're mistaking the effect of the former for the latter. Basically, with a 2* roster, you should never get top 10, top 25, or even top 50 once you're no longer in the "beginner" brackets. Top 100 if you're lucky and play it just right. In my brackets, 600 will maybe get you top 100, not anywhere near top 10.

Hitting top 10 several times will certainly earn you a ticket to the big leagues. Congratulations! You graduated from middle school, now you're a high school freshman. Prepare to get stuffed into some lockers.

TheOncomingStorm

jaxboomstick wrote:

While it seems the majority of MPQ are pleased with the new scoring system changes, it seems quite appearent that this group consists of veterans with solid lvl 166 line-ups. The scoring changes have made it much easier for these vets to get higher scores, but at the same time have destroyed the ability for 2* players to rank > 25.

As a new player entering PvP events it took me a while to find a system that allowed me to score top 10 in all the events last season. My previous system was to enter an event 30 hours out. Use Node 1 to boost my score to 400. Wait 8 hours, and let my score drop to 250 and resetting my MMR to base. Rince and repeat this process 3 times and I would be in the 600's. This process allowed me to always rank in the top 10.

With the new changes ... this system is impossible. I boost to 400, come back 8 hours later and i'm 125. I boost again to 500 and right as I reach the 400's I'm CONSTANTLY attacked. I mean, for every 1 win @ 40 points, I lose 50-60 points. 8 hours out, 24 hours out it doesn't matter. I get near 500 and its the wild west where I'm the juiciest target around. With this new wall at 500, I think I can still maintain my 650 point goal ... but with everyone else all reaching into the 1100's ... I will never rank under 50 again.

These changes to the scoring are so depressing. Its basically saying ... Vets who couldn't figure out how to get a decent score previously are now being rewarded by destroying any chance a non-vet has to rank. Thanks ...

So now I'm thinking ... PvP isn't even worth playing any more. Then I start thinking how incredibly difficult the gauntlet was and well ... PvE isn't really worth playing. Okay, so are the devs trying to say if your not a vet, don't bother trying to get into this game?

First, this game cares only about vets? You must be new. Almost every single change this game makes is to the advantage of the newer players and to the detriment of vets. This change benefited the vets, wait and see, they will not permit that to continue either. They are all about focusing on new players and marginalizing the vets who helped support this game the past 1.5+ years.

Second, you are going to have to do what other people had to do with the previous MMR change: Adapt. The game has changed, if you are using the same system as before it probably will not work.

Third, I do not want to hear a new player not getting T25 is the worst thing in the world. Why in the world should a player with that much weaker of a roster or time invested in the game be able to consistently get T25? How in the world does that make sense? If you are not a top 5% player, why would you feel entitled to consistently get top 5% rewards?

The truth is if you change up what you are doing, you'll probably do better than what you are doing now. This was the first event and you tried using an outdated system.

The other truth is the scoring is not going to stay any way. Disregarding the number of players that hit 1,000, there were players with final scores that were too high. MPQ has made it perfectly clear that will not permit this because they do not want to discourage noobs. I'm not sure what the tweak will be, but vets were actually having fun this event, and that will never be permitted under this regime.

At the same time, I don't disagree the scoring was too high. My problem was that I was in Slice 3 which was a dry slice which actually had a typical amount of people hitting 1,000. So, I am not sure how they will balance out too high scoring in plentiful slices, but more appropriate amount of scoring in dry slices. It seems like if they want players to be able to choose slices based on their convenience instead of points, they have to leave it the way it is.

However, since points will be probably be brought back down (to the expense of players that choose slices based on their lives than the points in that slice), there will likewise be no need to tweak progressives.

It's just a shame. The top players with the top rosters having fun playing a game is a crime. I have never heard of or played any other game with that mindset. Most games spend many resources trying to get to that point. However, instead of extending the reward tiers so newer players do not feel like they need to hit T25 at this stage in their transition, a change that would permit all levels of players to have fun; we all know MPQ will again do whatever it has to at the expense of vets to make the game more enjoyable to rest of the playerbase. I long for the day that vets are considered to be part of this so called playerbase.

xellessanova

jaxboomstick wrote:

While it seems the majority of MPQ are pleased with the new scoring system changes, it seems quite appearent that this group consists of veterans with solid lvl 166 line-ups. The scoring changes have made it much easier for these vets to get higher scores, but at the same time have destroyed the ability for 2* players to rank > 25.

I'm a vet, and I had a very limited amount of play time this weekend. Still managed to hit 900+ in less than a couple of hours total spread out over 11 hours & 1 8-hr shield, ending at 893 in 5th slice for 41st place. I wasn't even attacked until 800, but after that it was a feeding frenzy where 3 hits took out -110 points. Top 10 was all over 1100, leader was 1469, and I can't see how far up it goes to top 25, but my assumption is that you need 1000 to get top 25 now. So on that assessment, you are correct.

I can see how this is depressing, especially after you worked out a clever way to leverage your 2*s into a top 25 finish, punching way above your weight class. For a month of playing MPQ, seriously, that is amazing. The thing is, though, that having started a month ago you've seen a very different game from what it was two months ago (MMR change), and four months ago it was different as well (X-Force/GThor 270 wall).

Last season I needed to play at least 4 or 5 hours per PVP to get that number of points and drop between 3-6 shields (300-600 hero points) for the chance to rank in the top 10. This was really, seriously, unacceptable.

You've been able to skip much of the 2* game and vault right into grabbing 3*s, but this game is a marathon rather than a sprint. It generally takes about 6 months before you have 3*s that are better than your 2*s. Do you see yourself playing this game for six months? Many of the vets have been here for over a year and a half.

TheOncomingStorm wrote:

You are going to have to do what other people had to do with the previous MMR change: Adapt. The game has changed, if you are using the same system as before it probably will not work.

This is very true. So here is the only advice I have: you're smart. Clever enough to have figured out a trick once -- you can figure out something else, try something else. Play at different times. They'll change something else or release someone new in the next month.

D3 keeps tweaking stuff with the best intentions. They've given vets back the ability to go from 3* to 4* after making that nearly impossible, and they've sped up the point gain to deal with the time increase -- but only after they set up the MMR changes and health boosts to keep weaker players from being stomped on that made vets feel like they were in a hellish meat grinder from the first fight. It's just that each tweak rebalances and sometimes overcorrects a system that is near impossible to balance anyway.

I'm not sure there is a solution that makes all players at all levels happy, and I'm not really bullish on the idea that there is one that also makes the devs money.

(For instance, on the player side: Increasing the 3* + 4* drop rate would be one thing; increasing the reward bracket size would be another; capping the cost of roster slots would help a lot. Another option would be to run separate opt-in tournaments with different rewards to help segregate the player base -- which has been floated many many times in the past.)

Unknown

" If you are not a top 5% player, why would you feel entitled to consistently get top 5% rewards?" Seriously? Spending hours reading and researching how the MMR and ranking systems work. Testing countless time brackets to determine the best time and strength of brackets. Developing an attack strategy that allows me to be competitive if I spend twice as much time battling than vets have to due to points rewarded. Following this strategy precisely in order to have a chance for a 3* cover.

Yeah ... that sounds like someone feeling "entitled" to a reward. Entitled = verb (used with object) - to give (a person or thing) a title, right, or claim to something without grounds for laying claim.

So if you're saying a two star player who works extremely hard should have no right to expect to ever earn a 3 star cover ... I'll accept it and stop playing the game. However, I feel that's probably not what you're trying to say.

As for new strategies and adapting ... I'm all for it as long as that's a possibility. The way it is setup now, its not possible to get past 600. PERIOD. I can win the battles but the problem is I cannot earn points fast enough to out pace the number of people of attacking me. I tried pushing past 600 at 2:00 AM in the morning 50+ hours away from the end and I'm consistently attacked twice before I can complete a 5 minute match ... over and over and over ... and over ...

cyineedsn

udonomefoo wrote:

jaxboomstick wrote:

While it seems the majority of MPQ are pleased with the new scoring system changes, it seems quite appearent that this group consists of veterans with solid lvl 166 line-ups. The scoring changes have made it much easier for these vets to get higher scores, but at the same time have destroyed the ability for 2* players to rank > 25.

As a new player entering PvP events it took me a while to find a system that allowed me to score top 10 in all the events last season. My previous system was to enter an event 30 hours out. Use Node 1 to boost my score to 400. Wait 8 hours, and let my score drop to 250 and resetting my MMR to base. Rince and repeat this process 3 times and I would be in the 600's. This process allowed me to always rank in the top 10.

With the new changes ... this system is impossible. I boost to 400, come back 8 hours later and i'm 125. I boost again to 500 and right as I reach the 400's I'm CONSTANTLY attacked. I mean, for every 1 win @ 40 points, I lose 50-60 points. 8 hours out, 24 hours out it doesn't matter. I get near 500 and its the wild west where I'm the juiciest target around. With this new wall at 500, I think I can still maintain my 650 point goal ... but with everyone else all reaching into the 1100's ... I will never rank under 50 again.

These changes to the scoring are so depressing. Its basically saying ... Vets who couldn't figure out how to get a decent score previously are now being rewarded by destroying any chance a non-vet has to rank. Thanks ...

So now I'm thinking ... PvP isn't even worth playing any more. Then I start thinking how incredibly difficult the gauntlet was and well ... PvE isn't really worth playing. Okay, so are the devs trying to say if your not a vet, don't bother trying to get into this game?

Hi Jax. I'm speculating a bit here, but I think you're misinterpreting what's happening to your account. I believe that you just graduated from the soft "baby" brackets into the big kid league at the same time that the scoring change took effect so you're mistaking the effect of the former for the latter. Basically, with a 2* roster, you should never get top 10, top 25, or even top 50 once you're no longer in the "beginner" brackets. Top 100 if you're lucky and play it just right. In my brackets, 600 will maybe get you top 100, not anywhere near top 10.

Hitting top 10 several times will certainly earn you a ticket to the big leagues. Congratulations! You graduated from middle school, now you're a high school freshman. Prepare to get stuffed into some lockers.

I agree with this. It seems really unlikely that you were in brackets with "true" 3* roster veterans, because 600 points for top 10 sounds really low. It sounds much more like you graduated to a higher bracket entirely. As for vets who "couldn't figure out how to get a higher score" getting rewarded...well. That's just being a bit presumptuous about what the playstyle/habits/skills of everyone else and was an unnecessary comment.

elvy75

cyineedsn wrote:

udonomefoo wrote:

jaxboomstick wrote:

While it seems the majority of MPQ are pleased with the new scoring system changes, it seems quite appearent that this group consists of veterans with solid lvl 166 line-ups. The scoring changes have made it much easier for these vets to get higher scores, but at the same time have destroyed the ability for 2* players to rank > 25.

As a new player entering PvP events it took me a while to find a system that allowed me to score top 10 in all the events last season. My previous system was to enter an event 30 hours out. Use Node 1 to boost my score to 400. Wait 8 hours, and let my score drop to 250 and resetting my MMR to base. Rince and repeat this process 3 times and I would be in the 600's. This process allowed me to always rank in the top 10.

With the new changes ... this system is impossible. I boost to 400, come back 8 hours later and i'm 125. I boost again to 500 and right as I reach the 400's I'm CONSTANTLY attacked. I mean, for every 1 win @ 40 points, I lose 50-60 points. 8 hours out, 24 hours out it doesn't matter. I get near 500 and its the wild west where I'm the juiciest target around. With this new wall at 500, I think I can still maintain my 650 point goal ... but with everyone else all reaching into the 1100's ... I will never rank under 50 again.

These changes to the scoring are so depressing. Its basically saying ... Vets who couldn't figure out how to get a decent score previously are now being rewarded by destroying any chance a non-vet has to rank. Thanks ...

So now I'm thinking ... PvP isn't even worth playing any more. Then I start thinking how incredibly difficult the gauntlet was and well ... PvE isn't really worth playing. Okay, so are the devs trying to say if your not a vet, don't bother trying to get into this game?

Hi Jax. I'm speculating a bit here, but I think you're misinterpreting what's happening to your account. I believe that you just graduated from the soft "baby" brackets into the big kid league at the same time that the scoring change took effect so you're mistaking the effect of the former for the latter. Basically, with a 2* roster, you should never get top 10, top 25, or even top 50 once you're no longer in the "beginner" brackets. Top 100 if you're lucky and play it just right. In my brackets, 600 will maybe get you top 100, not anywhere near top 10.

Hitting top 10 several times will certainly earn you a ticket to the big leagues. Congratulations! You graduated from middle school, now you're a high school freshman. Prepare to get stuffed into some lockers.

I agree with this. It seems really unlikely that you were in brackets with "true" 3* roster veterans, because 600 points for top 10 sounds really low. It sounds much more like you graduated to a higher bracket entirely. As for vets who "couldn't figure out how to get a higher score" getting rewarded...well. That's just being a bit presumptuous about what the playstyle/habits/skills of everyone else and was an unnecessary comment.

As others already said you graduated to big league. Everything you do in this game makes some sort of history. If you manage to place constantly t10 or t25 in beginning, it will grant you graduation to vets brackets. Now you will notice that 600 points will be enough for just t150, 800 to t25 and over 900 points to be t10. Congratulation to your graduation, enjoy reward that devs gave you for doing good!

TheOncomingStorm

jaxboomstick wrote:

" If you are not a top 5% player, why would you feel entitled to consistently get top 5% rewards?" Seriously? Spending hours reading and researching how the MMR and ranking systems work. Testing countless time brackets to determine the best time and strength of brackets. Developing an attack strategy that allows me to be competitive if I spend twice as much time battling than vets have to due to points rewarded. Following this strategy precisely in order to have a chance for a 3* cover.

Yeah ... that sounds like someone feeling "entitled" to a reward. Entitled = verb (used with object) - to give (a person or thing) a title, right, or claim to something without grounds for laying claim.

So if you're saying a two star player who works extremely hard should have no right to expect to ever earn a 3 star cover ... I'll accept it and stop playing the game. However, I feel that's probably not what you're trying to say, unless you have a sub-par IQ.

As for new strategies and adapting ... I'm all for it as long as that's a possibility. The way it is setup now, its not possible to get past 600. PERIOD. I can win the battles but the problem is I cannot earn points fast enough to out pace the number of people of attacking me. I tried pushing past 600 at 2:00 AM in the morning 50+ hours away from the end and I'm consistently attacked twice before I can complete a 5 minute match ... over and over and over ... and over ...

The point was not entitled in a vacuum. It was consistently entitled. Meaning that you do not just think that occasionally placing T25 is enough, but it seems that you expected to place T25 every event.

Also, you state that why should not a 2* player be able to get a 3*. But that is not the same thing as T25. That would be T100. And in fact, if you read further you would say that it is only placement I had an issue with on a consistent basis, not what rewards you receive. In particular I stated that MPQ should extend the rewards (to players like you who usually need them more than the highest scorers any way), so that you would not be forced to feel the only way for you to be successful is to make T25. In other words, while I do not think a player with roster should consistently be able to reach T25, I do feel that you should be able to obtain the covers you want/need on a consistent basis. I think we are on the same page more or less on this issue. You are looking at the current system saying the solution is for you to be able to hit T25. I'm saying they should change the current system so you do not have to hit T25.

As far as how many points you lose within a finite time period, players have been asking MPQ to fix this for a very long while. These ideas are discussed again (I think in this same thread).

I was helping transitioners several seasons ago, but not lately. So I'm not sure what strategies they are using. It may be when you are climbing or the slice you are in, I'm not sure.

Lastly, I'm pretty sure this will just be an academic discussion because I'm pretty sure they will be making another change any way. Remember, they implemented the two new points changes separately. That was probably so they would be able to tweak the new system. Which brings us to another good point. This was a new change, they typically never get it 100% out of the gate (they are still working on MMR after 1.5+ years). They will tweak the system with the data they have, probably several tweaks over the next PVP's if I had to guess. However, as I said before, they will make changes to help players like you, and it will be at the expense of players like me. So you may have difficulties in a few PVP's, but you'll probably be having the last laugh when they get done.

Unknown

I appreciate all the feedback and have a couple final thoughts. The brackets I was previously able to rank in top 10 were against all player types. Top player all 220 4*'s. Next all 166 3*'s.

Some people are confused on how this is possible, but previously, your team really had no reflection on how you ranked. Rank is purely an arbitrary score based on your number points earned for the event.

Points are earned by battling other players the match making system feels are within your caliber. My theory on how it worked was this:

1. Base MMR = Top 3 cover lvls. (94+94+94) = 292 for example.
2. Match against any player +50 / -50 of your rating.
3. Gain +10 MMR for each win.
4. Lose -10 MMR for each loss.

So if I win 10 matches, my score will be 300ish. My MMR goes up to 392 where it's tough to progress. Load up a tank team and 8 hours later I'm attacked 10 times, my MMR is reset to 292 but my score is only down to 200. Rince and repeat until i'm at 650. The brackets I chose at 30 hours typically would only have a couple players 800+. Inspecting them, they are 4* 220ish players. I.E. Big Leagues.
The point of this explanation is that its easy to reach 650+ without ever having to face a player with a max 3* team since my MMR was always sub 400.

Anyway ... I apologize for making a big deal out of this as I have found my new strategy to get back into the Top 25. I don't think I can achieve Top 10, but Top 25 is definitely attainable.

Unknown

jaxboomstick wrote:

I appreciate all the feedback and have a couple final thoughts. The brackets I was previously able to rank in top 10 were against all player types. Top player all 220 4*'s. Next all 166 3*'s.

Some people are confused on how this is possible, but previously, your team really had no reflection on how you ranked. Rank is purely an arbitrary score based on your number points earned for the event.

Points are earned by battling other players the match making system feels are within your caliber. My theory on how it worked was this:

1. Base MMR = Top 3 cover lvls. (94+94+94) = 292 for example.
2. Match against any player +50 / -50 of your rating.
3. Gain +10 MMR for each win.
4. Lose -10 MMR for each loss.

So if I win 10 matches, my score will be 300ish. My MMR goes up to 392 where it's tough to progress. Load up a tank team and 8 hours later I'm attacked 10 times, my MMR is reset to 292 but my score is only down to 200. Rince and repeat until i'm at 650. The brackets I chose at 30 hours typically would only have a couple players 800+. Inspecting them, they are 4* 220ish players. I.E. Big Leagues.
The point of this explanation is that its easy to reach 650+ without ever having to face a player with a max 3* team since my MMR was always sub 400.

Anyway ... I apologize for making a big deal out of this as I have found my new strategy to get back into the Top 25. I don't think I can achieve Top 10, but Top 25 is definitely attainable.

Don't worry about it, every one of us has been through the transition and we all remember it as the dark times.
Just keep hitting that wall with your forehead and eventually the wall will go down.

There is a point where effort and reward will become proportional again.

fmftint

ArkPrime wrote:

There is a point where effort and reward will become proportional again.

At which point they change the rules again...

lukewin

jaxboomstick wrote:

" If you are not a top 5% player, why would you feel entitled to consistently get top 5% rewards?" Seriously? Spending hours reading and researching how the MMR and ranking systems work. Testing countless time brackets to determine the best time and strength of brackets. Developing an attack strategy that allows me to be competitive if I spend twice as much time battling than vets have to due to points rewarded. Following this strategy precisely in order to have a chance for a 3* cover.

Others have spent months playing. Researching how MMR systems work won't guarantee you'll know how it works, because you're filtering thru theories to develop a theory, since there is no official information on how MMR works.

jaxboomstick wrote:

So if you're saying a two star player who works extremely hard should have no right to expect to ever earn a 3 star cover ... I'll accept it and stop playing the game. However, I feel that's probably not what you're trying to say, unless you have a sub-par IQ.

Would've downvoted if downvotes were still around. Uncalled for statement at the end.

jaxboomstick wrote:

As for new strategies and adapting ... I'm all for it as long as that's a possibility. The way it is setup now, its not possible to get past 600. PERIOD. I can win the battles but the problem is I cannot earn points fast enough to out pace the number of people of attacking me. I tried pushing past 600 at 2:00 AM in the morning 50+ hours away from the end and I'm consistently attacked twice before I can complete a 5 minute match ... over and over and over ... and over ...

You also have to realize that the game is played worldwide. So even though it might be late night for you, where your neighbors are asleep, doesn't mean that across the world, there aren't players playing during the daytime. The fact that there are 5 time slices eliminates the possibility of a big advantage due to playing off hours.

jaxboomstick wrote:

I appreciate all the feedback and have a couple final thoughts. The brackets I was previously able to rank in top 10 were against all player types. Top player all 220 4*'s. Next all 166 3*'s.

Vets that take time off, like whole seasons, get placed in the baby brackets when they come back. This thread does show that there are some vets that came back for PVP recently, to try out the changes. So the presence of vets in your brackets in the past, does not mean that you were in vet brackets.

jaxboomstick wrote:

Some people are confused on how this is possible, but previously, your team really had no reflection on how you ranked. Rank is purely an arbitrary score based on your number points earned for the event.

Points are earned by battling other players the match making system feels are within your caliber. My theory on how it worked was this:

1. Base MMR = Top 3 cover lvls. (94+94+94) = 292 for example.
2. Match against any player +50 / -50 of your rating.
3. Gain +10 MMR for each win.
4. Lose -10 MMR for each loss.

So if I win 10 matches, my score will be 300ish. My MMR goes up to 392 where it's tough to progress. Load up a tank team and 8 hours later I'm attacked 10 times, my MMR is reset to 292 but my score is only down to 200. Rince and repeat until i'm at 650. The brackets I chose at 30 hours typically would only have a couple players 800+. Inspecting them, they are 4* 220ish players. I.E. Big Leagues.
The point of this explanation is that its easy to reach 650+ without ever having to face a player with a max 3* team since my MMR was always sub 400.

I bolded what I think is key in your statement. I believe your results matching your theory are coincidental, not causal.

jaxboomstick wrote:

Anyway ... I apologize for making a big deal out of this as I have found my new strategy to get back into the Top 25. I don't think I can achieve Top 10, but Top 25 is definitely attainable.

Good luck on getting into the Top 25. In the vet brackets before this change, I was able to get Top 25 with scores in the 700s and the teens with 800s. The Falcon PVP I was in the 30s with a score in the 800s.

Arimis_Thorn

I have mixed feeling about the change. On the one hand, the Falcon PVP was the first one where I actually scored 800 points. I got within a couple of points of 900, but then for every fight I won, someone beat me and I had a net loss, so I ended up having to shield around 860 or so.

On the other hand, defense losses are BRUTAL now, and there are a lot of them. I see something like 3 defensive losses (-80) and 2 defensive wins (+15). Definitely makes me more likely to shield, though I don't want to shield too early.

So I *seem* to be progressing quite a bit further than I had, but it's such a slippery climb and is very easy to fall waaaaaaay back down in a short amount of time. Maybe before I just wasn't scoring high enough to be on such dangerous radars.

Nooneelsesname

Okay Will, I get why you say it's faster. How is it fairer?

Outside communication is as if not more valuable than ever and its value is directly related to the number of people you communicate with outside the game. It doesn't seem fair that players with an entrenched infrastructure now have an even bigger advantage.

The restricted queue made some sense by making it more expensive to queue alliance mates in the days of retreat boosting, but this event I've hit the same player six or seven times because they're the only one showing up who isn't Max IMHB/IF. I don't think that's fairer for them, wish I had other options, nothing personal.

As others have stated, getting hit multiple times in the midst of a single fight does not seem fair. Suffering giant point losses with no possibility of a point gain from a low score player does not seem fair when that low score just means that they started late and are running a maxed team. Sniping is now no risk, huge reward. The current structure punishes people the more they play the game.

There's obviously some underlying philosophy I'm not seeing. What is your definition of fair?

GothicKratos

I would presume they do not intend for you to see the same people repeatedly. There's a lot of things that can factor into why this might be, that's not a "bug", but it could also be because they last time they adjusted match-making, they were working off a specific scale and now that scale is out of whack.

The general consensus seems to be that this is a net positive experience. Getting up to good scores (600-800) is easier than ever, but getting high scores (800+) is more dangerous than ever.

Let's give them a couple events to gather data and balance things out some? They'll probably slide Progression Rewards around some (I personally hope they take this opportunity to retune how Progressions are setup, and add in more actual tiers, instead of sliding the point values around) like they last time they made these kinds of adjustments.

GritsNGravy

Got to say so far I'm a fan of the changes. Top Gun was the best PVP experience for me in a while.