Changes To Scoring In Versus Events

Demiurge_Will

Hi, all,

Will from Demiurge here to talk about some changes we’re making to scoring in Versus events.

There was a loophole in the scoring system that allowed players to coordinate to gain lots of points very quickly, by intentionally losing to one another. We’ve closed that loophole by reducing the amount of points gained from a defensive win to ⅓ of what it was previously. The defender currently wins in a Versus match only about 10% of the time, so this has a small impact on players who weren’t intentionally losing to one another. We’re taking that into account with the next change:

Changes we made to Versus matchmaking in Season XIII increased average Versus fight times by about 30%. We want to reduce the time that it takes to climb the leaderboards and add some additional points into the system to make up for those lost from the change to how defensive wins are scored. We’re increasing the points value of each Versus mission by 50%.

(That affects both the number of points from a win and from a loss. Before the change, if Ada and Bea both have 500 points and Ada attacks Bea and wins, Ada would gain 25 points and Bea would lose 13. After the change, Ada would gain 38 points and Bea would lose 19.)

The change to the amount of points gained from a defensive win has already been made, and the increase to the points value of a Versus mission will take effect with the start of Season XV.

I’m excited to make Versus faster and fairer, and I’m looking forward to getting these changes into your hands!

Q&A (Added 5/27):
Q: What’s the most you’ll be able to earn in a single mission?
A: 75 points, 50% more than the old maximum of 50 points.

Q: Can you show a specific example with a defensive win? If Ada and Bea both have 500 points and Ada attacks Bea and loses, what happens?
A: Once Season XV starts, Ada would lose 19 points and Bea would gain 13 (37.5/3, rounded off).

Q: Can you give us the complete algorithm for figuring out how many points you’ll lose or gain?
A: The scoring system is based on the Elo rating system, but the formula for that is too complex to put here without mathematical notation. Check Wikipedia if you’re interested. But the algorithm goes something like this:
Start with the points change given by the Elo rating system, with a k-value of 75.
If the loser’s score is <=1000, multiply their loss by (their score / 1000).
If the winner was the defender, divide their gain by 3.
Round the result.

Q: Yeah, that’s too much math. How about some more examples?
A: OK! Here you go:

A (500) attacks B (500): If A wins, A gains 38, B loses 19. If A loses, A loses 19, B gains 13.
A (200) attacks B (500): If A wins, A gains 64, B loses 32. If A loses, A loses 2, B gains 4.
A (500) attacks B (200): If A wins, A gains 11, B loses 2. If A loses, A loses 32, B gains 21.

Q: Are you actually excited about this, or is that just a corporate line?
A: I actually get excited about stuff like this. That exclamation point was legit.

Unknown

Lots of questions Will. Can point targets now go above 50 points on wins? For example, a max of 75 points now from the ratio you give above?

ZeiramMR

Could you give another example of before and after for a defensive win?

If Ada lost in the above example, would Ada lose 19 points and Bea gain 13 points under the new changes?

Vladdy

I understood that i get more points if i win on attack and get less if i win on defence and lose more if i lose on defence. What about losing on attack?

CrookedKnight

DetJohnKimble wrote:

Lots of questions Will. Can point targets now go above 50 points on wins? For example, a max of 75 points now from the ratio you give above?

Same question. This sounds like an overall positive change but raising the point cap would not go amiss because if the maximum is still 50 points then that means the cap will kick in at a very low point differential -- an opponent who's only moderately higher-scoring than me, worth 33 points under the current system, would hit it.

DrNitroman

Demiurge_Will wrote:

Hi, all,

Will from Demiurge here to talk about some changes we’re making to scoring in Versus events.
<snip>
We want to reduce the time that it takes to climb the leaderboards and add some additional points into the system to make up for those lost from the change to how defensive wins are scored.
<snip>
I’m excited to make Versus faster and fairer, and I’m looking forward to getting these changes into your hands!

Thanks for the update, Will and I like when you state clearly your intentions behind the changes.
I must say I'm rather happy with this intention, faster and more rewarding fights (personnally, my scores in PvP dropped significantly with the last changes).
...
Now, let's see if these changes will produce the wanted effects

Unknown

Wait. So all you changed so far is that we're going to lose way more points if we lose a match. Is that your awesome pvp scoring system change so far?

DaveR4470

Faster, yes. Fairer -- no, so long as you continue to use points in the event as a proxy for team strength. That works okay if you're talking about matchmaking between 500+ point teams who likely are relatively close in team power. It works utterly, utterly terribly when I'm at 189 points and I lose 50% of that total because I wind up matched against three teams of 3*-4* max characters on their way up who are "only" at 50 points, and are therefore "weak" teams that I "should" be beating with my mid-leveled 3* team.

It provides an enormous disincentive to play PvP at any time other than as late in the event as possible, where all the strong teams have already finished their climb out of the range of the 100-300 point teams. And since PvP events and PvE events are relatively close in time, and there are only so many hours and health packs in the day, I'm going to pick PvE instead of trying to rush through the last couple hours of a PvE for a 2* Moonstone and a token.

These changes are positive, but I think they're just mitigating the impact of an underlying flaw instead of actually advancing towards fixing the flaw. Just my $.02.

CrookedKnight

ArkPrime wrote:

Wait. So all you changed so far is that we're going to lose way more points if we lose a match. Is that your awesome pvp scoring system change so far?

Unless I'm grossly misreading this, what's changed so far is only the reduction in points gained for a defensive win, to prevent round-robin retreating. Points lost for a defeat are calculated as a percentage of the point value for a win, and that percentage isn't changing, so the increases in those values will take effect at the same time.

Moon Roach

You know, you'd cut down on the speculation and questions if you had a series of worked examples.

A (500) attacks B (500): A Wins gains ?, B drops ?: A Loses drops ?, B gains ?.
A (200) attacks B (500): A Wins gains ?, B drops ?: A Loses drops ?, B gains ?.
A (500) attacks B (200): A Wins gains ?, B drops ?: A Loses drops ?, B gains ?.

An algorithm would be even better.

It doesn't really matter whether the scenarios are realistic, just that all circumstances are covered.

simonsez

Demiurge_Will wrote:

Before the change, if Ada and Bea both have 500 points and Ada attacks Bea and wins, Ada would gain 25 points and Bea would lose 13. After the change, Ada would gain 38 points and Bea would lose 19.

Yes, because if there's one thing everyone's been asking for is, "Please make us lose more points when we get attacked!!". Dammit, the tone-deafness is so maddening at times!

At least you didn't drop this turd on a friday, as usual.

Unknown

So rather than waiting for devs to come up with scenarios why don't we just come up with our own? Here's my understanding based on what's posted, feel free to correct if they're wrong:

Scenario A: A has 1000 PvP points, B has 1000 PvP points

A attacks B
If A wins, A gets +37 and B gets -37 (A gets 25 + 50% = 37)
If A loses, A gets -12 and B gets +12 (A loses 1/3 of what he would've won, rounded down)

Sceario B: A has 500 PvP points, B has 500 PvP points, both take half the point loss for being at 500 points
If A wins, A gets +37 and B gets -18
If A loses, A gets -6 and B gets +12

Is this correct?

snlf25

All I'm seeing here is that I might have to score 800 points to get to 500 instead of 700 to get to 500. We already get screwed enough for loses. Reduce it, don't increase it! How about instead of losing 13 we lose 9 instead? We get hit a hell of a lot more now which begs the question - do you guys actually play the game?

wade66

Now if only they would be willing to swap the 1000 point progression reward with the 900 point one.

CrookedKnight

Phantron, I'd be shocked if the number of points lost for a failed attack is going down. As long as attacking someone and retreating produces a net increase in points the round robin exploit is still there.

udonomefoo

simonsez wrote:

Demiurge_Will wrote:

Before the change, if Ada and Bea both have 500 points and Ada attacks Bea and wins, Ada would gain 25 points and Bea would lose 13. After the change, Ada would gain 38 points and Bea would lose 19.

Yes, because if there's one thing everyone's been asking for is, "Please make us lose more points when we get attacked!!". Dammit, the tone-deafness is so maddening at times!

At least you didn't drop this turd on a friday, as usual.

Yes, but while the point loss increased by 6 the point gain for a win increased by 13. Bigger points in wins, more points in the system. Not that this "fixes" the main complaints about pvp, but how is that not better, and why are you selectively ignoring that part?

Stax the Foyer

Demiurge_Will wrote:

The change to the amount of points gained from a defensive win has already been made

TheOncomingStorm

simonsez wrote:

Demiurge_Will wrote:

Before the change, if Ada and Bea both have 500 points and Ada attacks Bea and wins, Ada would gain 25 points and Bea would lose 13. After the change, Ada would gain 38 points and Bea would lose 19.

Yes, because if there's one thing everyone's been asking for is, "Please make us lose more points when we get attacked!!". Dammit, the tone-deafness is so maddening at times!

At least you didn't drop this turd on a friday, as usual.

It's relative. You will still climb faster.

stevenbrule

Seems like a good thing. Not sure I'm a big fan of the increased loss while on defense, though. This seems like it would made shields a much more essential component of the game...

fmftint

So basically, we will lose points, faster than ever.

Do you guys even play at a competitive level?

An easier fix would have been, no point loss protection on retreats, points gained = points lost Reducing defensive win points 60% you are still manufacturing points

Joey Jellico

Why lose points at all? This game is way to dysfunctional.