Changes To Scoring In Versus Events

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  • Unknown
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    ArkPrime wrote:
    djsquillz wrote:
    ArkPrime wrote:
    It's also funny that this "loophole" has been used and talked about publicly for months and they decided it was an emergency now. We call it "boosting" and it's been around longer than I've played the game.

    I'd say that over the past season and a half, i noticed more and more and more and more people doing it. I honestly think what happened is that too many crews started using this method too frequently for D3 to ignore it any longer.

    marc
    Maybe more people with average scores were doing it, but entire seasons were dominated by people who did nothing but this.

    Agreed. I never really understood that level of using it. I guess i don't care about "winning" that much. Personally, i used this method maybe 3-4 times and each time it was to achieve the progression cover...not for placement. To each his own.

    marc
  • Heartburn
    Heartburn Posts: 527
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    udonomefoo wrote:
    simonsez wrote:
    Before the change, if Ada and Bea both have 500 points and Ada attacks Bea and wins, Ada would gain 25 points and Bea would lose 13. After the change, Ada would gain 38 points and Bea would lose 19.
    Yes, because if there's one thing everyone's been asking for is, "Please make us lose more points when we get attacked!!". Dammit, the tone-deafness is so maddening at times!

    At least you didn't drop this turd on a friday, as usual.

    Yes, but while the point loss increased by 6 the point gain for a win increased by 13. Bigger points in wins, more points in the system. Not that this "fixes" the main complaints about pvp, but how is that not better, and why are you selectively ignoring that part?
    i play 1 match and win one match, in that time i get hit by 2-3 people. this change is supposed to make me happy to play pvp?
  • Wonko33
    Wonko33 Posts: 985 Critical Contributor
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    Ben Grimm wrote:
    All I'm hearing from these changes is "start later and take fewer risks." The last thing they need to do is penalize defensive losses - which you have literally no control over - more. This would be a better game if they removed them entirely. They could take defensive wins at the same time, if they wanted to.

    Yes, it might cost them some shield money, but it would make PVP more playable. And for everyone saying "it just rewards the grinders more," explain how that's different and/or worse.


    Doesn't that remove the PvP aspect of it at all? it's just PvE with other players choosing the teams you will face instead of a story line
  • Unknown
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    Wonko33 wrote:
    Ben Grimm wrote:
    All I'm hearing from these changes is "start later and take fewer risks." The last thing they need to do is penalize defensive losses - which you have literally no control over - more. This would be a better game if they removed them entirely. They could take defensive wins at the same time, if they wanted to.

    Yes, it might cost them some shield money, but it would make PVP more playable. And for everyone saying "it just rewards the grinders more," explain how that's different and/or worse.


    Doesn't that remove the PvP aspect of it at all? it's just PvE with other players choosing the teams you will face instead of a story line

    What is this "story line" you speak of?

    marc
  • Unknown
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    Wonko33 wrote:
    Ben Grimm wrote:
    All I'm hearing from these changes is "start later and take fewer risks." The last thing they need to do is penalize defensive losses - which you have literally no control over - more. This would be a better game if they removed them entirely. They could take defensive wins at the same time, if they wanted to.

    Yes, it might cost them some shield money, but it would make PVP more playable. And for everyone saying "it just rewards the grinders more," explain how that's different and/or worse.


    Doesn't that remove the PvP aspect of it at all? it's just PvE with other players choosing the teams you will face instead of a story line

    That's more of a problem with PVE than with this. PVE is just a different form of PVP as it is. This game's only true PVE is DDQ and the Gauntlet. But I don't really see a problem with it even if it makes them more similar.

    The biggest problem PVP has right now is that defense is too random and arbitrary and beyond the control of the player to matter as much as it matters right now. PVP without defense would be better. Other games do it that way and it works fine.
  • Wonko33
    Wonko33 Posts: 985 Critical Contributor
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    dkffiv wrote:

    So if a 400 point target hits an 800 point target, the 400 point target gains 75 and the 800 gets knocked down to 740? (75 * 800/1000 = 60) At 800 finding a 29 point target currently is pretty lucky, so in that example I'd end up at 798 assuming I hit one decent target and I was only sniped by a single person (frequently its at least 2 people). A bad hop usually ends up like +25 +25 -40 for a +10 gain, new system will be +50 +40 -100 for a -10 net?

    Remember that if you're climbing faster, your stored targets that you have lined up before hopping will be worth less. Think of it as you're at 800 and attacking a 900 and a 900. The first fight is a 100 point differential, then second is a 75 point. New system will be 100 differential, 50 differential. Meanwhile you're climbing faster so the differential from a low level sniper will be larger (you're now say 450 points higher when you would've been 425).

    Overall I see this sucking.

    .... puts calculator back in shirt pocket icon_e_wink.gif
  • aesthetocyst
    aesthetocyst Posts: 538 Critical Contributor
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    Wonko33 wrote:
    Ben Grimm wrote:
    All I'm hearing from these changes is "start later and take fewer risks." The last thing they need to do is penalize defensive losses - which you have literally no control over - more. This would be a better game if they removed them entirely. They could take defensive wins at the same time, if they wanted to.

    Yes, it might cost them some shield money, but it would make PVP more playable. And for everyone saying "it just rewards the grinders more," explain how that's different and/or worse.


    Doesn't that remove the PvP aspect of it at all? it's just PvE with other players choosing the teams you will face instead of a story line

    Right now, that is exactly what PVP is, PVE vs other players rosters, only differences are:
      You get to choose nodes (from a small selection...and, unfortunately, repeat them at will) Your winning inflicts pain on others You spontaneously lose random numbers of pts when others decide to attack you and win. As a salve, you occasionally get some freebies if someone picke you and loses.

    Now, not so much on that last one.

    Real live PVP just ain't happening. It would be nice if we could at least 'program' our defense AI a bit.
  • Chrono_Tata
    Chrono_Tata Posts: 719 Critical Contributor
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    So, from what I understand, the increase in point loss from a defensive loss has been increased, while point gains from fights remain the same until the next season? I know is that I'm gonna be pretty pissed if this causes me to lose out on the Prof X cover on the Nefarious Foes PvP.

    I'm sitting here shielded at 800 points (thankfully not pushing to 1k since I already maxed Fury), and 2 guys with 300 points have hit me, which would have caused me to lose 70+ points if i weren't shielded. How do these guys even see me, and is it really reasonable to expect people to hit 1k legitly with this kind of nonsense?
  • Wonko33
    Wonko33 Posts: 985 Critical Contributor
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    Ben Grimm wrote:
    How to fix PVP:

    Eliminate losing points entirely. Even offensively. If you win offensively, you gain points, if you lose, you get zero. Defense doesn't really matter.

    we have that, it's called PvE
  • Malcrof
    Malcrof Posts: 5,971 Chairperson of the Boards
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    So, from what I understand, the increase in point loss from a defensive loss has been increased, while point gains from fights remain the same until the next season? I know is that I'm gonna be pretty pissed if this causes me to lose out on the Prof X cover on the Nefarious Foes PvP.

    I'm sitting here shielded at 800 points (thankfully not pushing to 1k since I already maxed Fury), and 2 guys with 300 points have hit me, which would have caused me to lose 70+ points if i weren't shielded. How do these guys even see me, and is it really reasonable to expect people to hit 1k legitly with this kind of nonsense?

    Skips are how they see you. They look for highest point targets

    Oddly, i have been picking targets in off season and lightning rounds based on my chances at a bagman cover.. no idea why i want to roster him now, i had many chances in the past and sold them off.
  • fmftint
    fmftint Posts: 3,653 Chairperson of the Boards
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    ArkPrime wrote:
    djsquillz wrote:
    ArkPrime wrote:
    It's also funny that this "loophole" has been used and talked about publicly for months and they decided it was an emergency now. We call it "boosting" and it's been around longer than I've played the game.

    I'd say that over the past season and a half, i noticed more and more and more and more people doing it. I honestly think what happened is that too many crews started using this method too frequently for D3 to ignore it any longer.

    marc
    Maybe more people with average scores were doing it, but entire seasons were dominated by people who did nothing but this.

    it really accelerated last off season when they posted the point loss formula, that one line was basically a tutorial on how to manufacture points.

    and I think they are only calling it a loophole to avoid a mass sandbox event. loopholes don't get you banned, exploits will
  • jackstar0
    jackstar0 Posts: 1,280 Chairperson of the Boards
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    So people gaming the system are mad?

    Don't you worry. You'll find another way. You always do.
  • simonsez
    simonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Except they might be trying to gather the impact of each change separately.
    There's no possible impact that reducing the points gained via def wins could have, other than to reduce scoring. This is nothing that needs to be tested. Yeah, great it's not a season event, but plenty of people want the PX at 1k. If it were a IW cover, it'd be easier not to care about the half-assed scoring modification in this event.
  • Wonko33
    Wonko33 Posts: 985 Critical Contributor
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    JVReal wrote:
    I don't shield until the end because I don't have endless HP, and I'm F2P, my money goes to my real expenses.

    I get hit more often than I climb. Last night I hit a few matches and was up to 598. Woke up this morning to -148. With the update I will wake up to an even bigger loss, having played no more matches than I had previously. I am limited to how many matches I can play and win in any given PVP regardless of how many points I gain due to roster depth, MMR and health packs. I am not limited to how many battles I can lose. Some PVP's I'm hit more than others. Every hit hurts me, and now every hit hurts me even more. Yes I win more when I fight, but I'm not fighting any more than I was before so my gain is capped, but my losses are not.

    I wonder how long before MPQ decides that the boost in points gained per battle means they push the progression back to a higher point threshold. If they dropped it due to making getting points more difficult, they can certainly increase it due to making fights more points. They have not traditionally been a generous company when it comes to reward structure. So if hitting 1K becomes so much easier... won't be long until it's back up to 1.3K again.

    There is a possibility that you won't wake up lower- the reason you lost only 148 points is because you became less attractive as your score went down and people stopped attacking you. Maybe this happens faster now and you lose similar amount of points but from fewer loses until you are not really worth the effort.

    This of course doesn't happen when you are way up there in points (end game hopping) but it might not be such a big difference during the 300--500 transition pauses. Time will tell
  • simonsez
    simonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
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    Wonko33 wrote:
    Focus your anger on the cheaters, that's why we can never have nice things
    "Rational players" aren't cheaters. Take a game theory course some time.
  • Wonko33
    Wonko33 Posts: 985 Critical Contributor
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    ArkPrime wrote:
    Let me just say this because it seems like a lot of people talking here don't know.

    You know how all these alliances coordinate our hops? We talk via apps outside of the game. When we're not hopping, we're talking about, amongst other things, our brackets, people in this forum and life in general. But when we talk about brackets, we show a lot of screenshots, and since we're usually top 25, we see a lot of the same names around.

    So believe me when I say this. We know which of you show up in higher brackets and have any idea at all of what you're talking about when you're talking about high level pvp. If we've never seen you there, you don't play pvp at a high enough level to be able to discuss it with any degree of authority. You're guessing and extrapolating from what you heard.

    What happens in pvp until the 600 point mark basically doesn't matter. You can use lazy daken patch every pvp and score 600. There are no changes outside of nerfs to those characters that have any impact on your game play. Talking about sniping and hopping to 1k when none of us have ever seen you there makes you look like a clown.

    I didn't know you had to have the same name in forum than in game... good to know. And I will not let you take unwarranted shots at clowns, shame on you
  • jackstar0
    jackstar0 Posts: 1,280 Chairperson of the Boards
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    simonsez wrote:
    Wonko33 wrote:
    Focus your anger on the cheaters, that's why we can never have nice things
    "Rational players" aren't cheaters. Take a game theory course some time.

    University of Phoenix?

    icon_lol.gif
  • Wonko33
    Wonko33 Posts: 985 Critical Contributor
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    djsquillz wrote:
    Wonko33 wrote:
    Ben Grimm wrote:
    All I'm hearing from these changes is "start later and take fewer risks." The last thing they need to do is penalize defensive losses - which you have literally no control over - more. This would be a better game if they removed them entirely. They could take defensive wins at the same time, if they wanted to.

    Yes, it might cost them some shield money, but it would make PVP more playable. And for everyone saying "it just rewards the grinders more," explain how that's different and/or worse.


    Doesn't that remove the PvP aspect of it at all? it's just PvE with other players choosing the teams you will face instead of a story line

    What is this "story line" you speak of?

    marc

    I'm talking about the Dark Avengers my friend, yes..... please let me fight more of them
  • Wonko33
    Wonko33 Posts: 985 Critical Contributor
    edited May 2015
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    simonsez wrote:
    Wonko33 wrote:
    Focus your anger on the cheaters, that's why we can never have nice things
    "Rational players" aren't cheaters. Take a game theory course some time.

    Take an Ethics one
  • tanis3303
    tanis3303 Posts: 855 Critical Contributor
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    jackstar0 wrote:
    So people gaming the system are mad?

    Don't you worry. You'll find another way. You always do.

    Maybe the Dev Team (and the players too!) should be asking a different question - Why do we feel the need to "game the system"?

    I'm guilty of a few retreat boosts to hit the 1K ladder lately, and its for one simple reason: PvP isn't enjoyable. Period. I want the 1K covers simply to provide a sense of getting somewhere, and 1K is the "easiest" way to get there. But picking the wrong, non-Crews time slice, having a bad hop (wipes, snipes etc) or just not having the kind of time to schedule perfect hops will all prevent you from getting there, because the system, quite frankly, sucks. So yea, I'll take any advantage I can get in order to actually feel like I'm getting something for my time/effort in this game. Boosting myself and a few others to the 1K progression reward with a 99% success rate was a whole heck of a lot more rewarding than slogging thru 2.5 days of 240/240/290 teams for a slim chance that you might, maybe, achieve your goal, if everything goes perfectly.

    Stop applying band-aids. A lot of players that have been here for a lot of months saw this as a better way to play the game than ACTUALLY PLAYING THE GAME. If that doesn't tell you that something more far reaching than tweaking a few dials needs to happen to the PvP format, then I don't know what to tell you...
This discussion has been closed.