Changes To Scoring In Versus Events

Raffoon

fmftint wrote:

Ben Grimm wrote:

How to fix PVP:

Eliminate losing points entirely. Even offensively. If you win offensively, you gain points, if you lose, you get zero. Defense doesn't really matter.

Yes, scores would go up, and you'd lose shield HP.

But.

You could recalibrate progression awards to reflect the new scoring. Lower levels would probably be unaffected; higher levels would go roughly where they were.

And you'd also gain a lot of income because people would have a much stronger incentive to broaden their roster so they can fight longer. Right now, PVP is about keeping three people healthy. With these changes, people could use their entire rosters in PVP, and would gain a direct PVP benefit from doing so.

Also, PVP might actually become, shockingly, fun. Suddenly, there would be a huge variety of opponents. Every team wouldn't be the same featured plus two. People would be able to try new strategies without worrying about how it would affect them on defense. People could try goofy combinations just because they think they'd be fun to play.

And if people are enjoying it, they'd be more likely to by health packs, or tokens, or go after that character they weren't going to bother with because they weren't good in PVP. You'd gain a lot more long-term than you'd lose short-term.

PVP is fixable, and it wouldn't necessarily be that difficult to fix. Please, try at least running an event or two like this - maybe in the next off-season - before you rule it out entirely.

that would just turn PVP into an endless 2.5 day grindfest.
The fundamental problem in PVP is, you can only win one fight at a time, but theres no limit to how many you can lose

I agree. I've suggested a limit on how many points you can lose in a given time before. Nothing is worse than coming out of a match and finding that you've lost 100-300 points.

JVReal

I don't shield until the end because I don't have endless HP, and I'm F2P, my money goes to my real expenses.

I get hit more often than I climb. Last night I hit a few matches and was up to 598. Woke up this morning to -148. With the update I will wake up to an even bigger loss, having played no more matches than I had previously. I am limited to how many matches I can play and win in any given PVP regardless of how many points I gain due to roster depth, MMR and health packs. I am not limited to how many battles I can lose. Some PVP's I'm hit more than others. Every hit hurts me, and now every hit hurts me even more. Yes I win more when I fight, but I'm not fighting any more than I was before so my gain is capped, but my losses are not.

I wonder how long before MPQ decides that the boost in points gained per battle means they push the progression back to a higher point threshold. If they dropped it due to making getting points more difficult, they can certainly increase it due to making fights more points. They have not traditionally been a generous company when it comes to reward structure. So if hitting 1K becomes so much easier... won't be long until it's back up to 1.3K again.

Polares

If getting to 1000 was difficult, now I think it is going to be allmost impossible for the great majority of players.

Low scores are going to raise, and getting to the 3* reward is going to be probably easy, but getting to the 4*... If you are attacked even once you are screwed. I really hope the new gaussian curbe we get for the scores has the 1000 score closer to the center, but I really doubt it, more people in the middle less in the extremes.


As someone has said, or you can be attacked only once every 10 minutes or remove losses completely.

Unknown

Seems like a huge buff to shields...

Darn it. I had just gotten to the point where I had stepped up my defensive game and was gaining about 50% of the points back in defensive wins by using defensively tricky teams. I wish that they didn't change the formula as much for people attacking people below them, as it doesn't make as much sense to give points to people below you because it's harder to earn points up top.

This screws up the way I've been leveling up my roster. Would have focused purely on offense if I knew this change was coming.

Will have to see how it plays out.

Unknown

Pylgrim wrote:

ArkPrime wrote:

Pylgrim wrote:

ArkPrime wrote:

Wait. So all you changed so far is that we're going to lose way more points if we lose a match. Is that your awesome pvp scoring system change so far?

Er, in the example given by Will, in the past, from a defeat where the attacker got 25 points, the loser would lose 13 points, a 52% of the points given. In the new format, it's only 50%. Yes, on the paper you are losing more points on a defeat (6 more in the example given), but you also are scoring much more when you win (13 points more). So lets say that following exactly those numbers, you win once and are defeated once: Before you'd end with a total of +12 points, from now on, you'll end with a total of +19 points. An unarguably positive outcome.

Also, if you are playing properly, you should be winning much, much more often than being defeated so that positive score compounds.

Er, except the positive part of the changes only takes effect in the next season, but we got the patch for the negative part of it even before this announcement. Er.

Oh my God, you're right, how could I've been so insensitive. The devastating effects this change will have in these absolutely essential off-season events cannot be understated. My heart goes to you in these times of ungodly hardship, brother.

Not insensitive, just ignorant and incapable of admitting you're wrong

Unknown

Let me just say this because it seems like a lot of people talking here don't know.

You know how all these alliances coordinate our hops? We talk via apps outside of the game. When we're not hopping, we're talking about, amongst other things, our brackets, people in this forum and life in general. But when we talk about brackets, we show a lot of screenshots, and since we're usually top 25, we see a lot of the same names around.

So believe me when I say this. We know which of you show up in higher brackets and have any idea at all of what you're talking about when you're talking about high level pvp. If we've never seen you there, you don't play pvp at a high enough level to be able to discuss it with any degree of authority. You're guessing and extrapolating from what you heard.

What happens in pvp until the 600 point mark basically doesn't matter. You can use lazy daken patch every pvp and score 600. There are no changes outside of nerfs to those characters that have any impact on your game play. Talking about sniping and hopping to 1k when none of us have ever seen you there makes you look like a clown.

Pylgrim

simonsez wrote:

NighteyesGrisu wrote:

Why am I not surprised that some people instantly whine about the change

Same reason I'm not surprised there are always shills and white knights who don't know a turd from a bonbon

Or the ones who, when given a bonbon will disintegrate it desperately searching for the traces of turd they are positive there will be there based on prejudice alone and then are not capable to understand why other players talk about getting a bonbon.

NighteyesGrisu wrote:

it's a rather substantial net gain since in the earlier stages wins amount for quite a bit more than losses

No one gives a flying tinykitty about the earlier stages of PvP. If you still need it explained to you, this is about the potential for disasters via bad hops and sniping.

Who's talking about the earlier stages alone? The whole effect is compounded throughout the climb and if there's truly an increase in difficulty once the very top scores are reached, the total difficulty will be probably evened out.

To make clearer my point: In nowadays' MMR, my average score earn per fight sits around 30, with scores over 35 being common during the first few hundreds and scores under 30 (but over 25) being the norm later on. As such, reaching 1k needs 34 victories or so. If 38 is indeed going to be the new 25, there's reason to believe that the average score per victory will be 45, but let's be pessimistic and say it's going to be 40. That's only 25 victories to reach 1k! Much faster, less chances for bad breaks and offensive losses, less health packs used. Whatever negative change it causes on accumulated defensive losses, it would have to be HUGE to outweigh having to play 30% less fights during your climb.

Moreover, closing gaps will be easier and safer: Many times I have sat around 960 points being unable to find a single fight to bridge the gap to 1k with a single fight, so it's either spend HP in another shield-hop just for the very last few points (and risk an additional unshielding) or attempt the suicidal risk of playing two quick rounds in a row and hope that your score adds up to get the 4* before the flurry of inevitable attacks registers. Now, it will be quite more possible to breach the gap with a single, quick battle. And this effect also compounds! Sitting at 920 before meant the necessity for 3-4 shields depending on your targets. Now, it may theoretically be done with 2. If 38 will really be the new 25, 1k is only 5-6 fights away from 800+ points, rather than 8!

But this is all theory so far, so we'll have to wait and see, rather than assuming the worst and then complaining angrily as though it was a fact.

ArkPrime wrote:

Not insensitive, just ignorant and incapable of admitting you're wrong

I was wrong. I misread your first post and though you were dismissing the whole thing. I apologise.

simonsez

NighteyesGrisu wrote:

how many 50p matches do you get at the top end?

My top end is 1000, so as long as I'm in the same shard as xmen or crewsaders, plenty.

Unknown

Demiurge_Will wrote:

Hi, all,

Will from Demiurge here to talk about some changes we’re making to scoring in Versus events.

There was a loophole in the scoring system that allowed players to coordinate to gain lots of points very quickly, by intentionally losing to one another. We’ve closed that loophole by reducing the amount of points gained from a defensive win to ⅓ of what it was previously. The defender currently wins in a Versus match only about 10% of the time, so this has a small impact on players who weren’t intentionally losing to one another. We’re taking that into account with the next change:

Changes we made to Versus matchmaking in Season XIII increased average Versus fight times by about 30%. We want to reduce the time that it takes to climb the leaderboards and add some additional points into the system to make up for those lost from the change to how defensive wins are scored. We’re increasing the points value of each Versus mission by 50%.

(That affects both the number of points from a win and from a loss. Before the change, if Ada and Bea both have 500 points and Ada attacks Bea and wins, Ada would gain 25 points and Bea would lose 13. After the change, Ada would gain 38 points and Bea would lose 19.)

The change to the amount of points gained from a defensive win has already been made, and the increase to the points value of a Versus mission will take effect with the start of Season XV.

I’m excited to make Versus faster and fairer, and I’m looking forward to getting these changes into your hands!

So let me get it straight. You're reducing points for defensive wins and increasing for defensive losses? Guys, sometimes what you do just blows my mind. I would support the first part but the second part making it a disaster.
How about just eliminating all defensive points?

Unknown

It's also funny that this "loophole" has been used and talked about publicly for months and they decided it was an emergency now. We call it "boosting" and it's been around longer than I've played the game.

Unknown

shurak wrote:

So let me get it straight. You're reducing points for defensive wins and increasing for defensive losses? Guys, sometimes what you do just blows my mind. I would support the first part but the second part making it a disaster.
How about just eliminating all defensive points?

They'll have to do it sooner or later.

Magic the Gathering stopped that system a few years ago for the best of the game.

For the time being, D3 hasn't had found a system to replace the shield economy, but once they find out, they will change the whole vs system.

They just need to find the time to think about it, and implement it.

PeterGibbons316

The most broken part of this game is what happens to you on defense, and they just made that worse.

This will probably make hitting progressions easier, but finishing high harder. Rewarding those willing to spend more money on shields. So it's another money grab, at this point that shouldn't surprise anyone.

aesthetocyst

ArkPrime wrote:

It's also funny that this "loophole" has been used and talked about publicly for months and they decided it was an emergency now. We call it "boosting" and it's been around longer than I've played the game.

The recent change to scoring (dividing losses by 1000 instead of 800) magnified the profitability of boosting. Also enabled boosting people to 1K and net gaining pts the whole time. Can't have that!

While it is ridiculous to see people levitate as if by magic at a rate which their roster and time in the event will not support, excising boosting entirely is hamhanded. And no, it won't bring down the highest scoring players. The highest scorers get their by bouncing off friendlies. This does nothing to address that.

Reigning in egregious boosting needed to happen. Trying to kill boosting entirely did not. The problem wasn't boosting itself, but boosting en masse.

Boosting and bouncing are options for collaborative, cooperative gameplay. A way to build positive teamwork in a PVP framework that encourages cutthroat cannibalism and all its associated negatives. Working together is always preferable to tearing others down. Just about everything about PVP from the scoring to the queuing encourage and enables the latter, not the former.

There is an opportunity here to greatly improve the PVP experience, I wrote it up (again!) earlier in this thread. I hope it gets some notice.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=30147&start=80#p362756

Unknown

ArkPrime wrote:

It's also funny that this "loophole" has been used and talked about publicly for months and they decided it was an emergency now. We call it "boosting" and it's been around longer than I've played the game.

I'd say that over the past season and a half, i noticed more and more and more and more people doing it. I honestly think what happened is that too many crews started using this method too frequently for D3 to ignore it any longer.

marc

Unknown

djsquillz wrote:

ArkPrime wrote:

It's also funny that this "loophole" has been used and talked about publicly for months and they decided it was an emergency now. We call it "boosting" and it's been around longer than I've played the game.

I'd say that over the past season and a half, i noticed more and more and more and more people doing it. I honestly think what happened is that too many crews started using this method too frequently for D3 to ignore it any longer.

marc

Maybe more people with average scores were doing it, but entire seasons were dominated by people who did nothing but this.

evil panda

PeterGibbons316 wrote:

The most broken part of this game is what happens to you on defense, and they just made that worse.

This will probably make hitting progressions easier, but finishing high harder. Rewarding those willing to spend more money on shields. So it's another money grab, at this point that shouldn't surprise anyone.

I think I might be able to live with easier progression but harder placement. Placement has always been frustrating because of alliance-coordinated sniping (and this will make it worse), but perhaps an easier climb to 1000 will make up for it.

But as I said, we'll see how it works in practice and save a pitchfork for me just in case

simonsez

djsquillz wrote:

I'd say that over the past season and a half, i noticed more and more and more and more people doing it. I honestly think what happened is that too many crews started using this method too frequently for D3 to ignore it any longer.

Yeah, as soon as everyone and their grandpa gets into something, that thing might as well be dead...

TheOncomingStorm

dkffiv wrote:

Pylgrim wrote:

ArkPrime wrote:

Pylgrim wrote:

Er, in the example given by Will, in the past, from a defeat where the attacker got 25 points, the loser would lose 13 points, a 52% of the points given. In the new format, it's only 50%. Yes, on the paper you are losing more points on a defeat (6 more in the example given), but you also are scoring much more when you win (13 points more). So lets say that following exactly those numbers, you win once and are defeated once: Before you'd end with a total of +12 points, from now on, you'll end with a total of +19 points. An unarguably positive outcome.

Also, if you are playing properly, you should be winning much, much more often than being defeated so that positive score compounds.

Er, except the positive part of the changes only takes effect in the next season, but we got the patch for the negative part of it even before this announcement. Er.

Oh my God, you're right, how could I've been so insensitive. The devastating effects this change will have in these absolutely essential off-season events cannot be understated. My heart goes to you in these times of ungodly hardship, brother.

If you can only roll out 50% of a solution, maybe you should wait a week to roll out 100%?

Except they might be trying to gather the impact of each change separately. This way if they do not get the intended results (scores don't rise high enough aka players still playing pvp for too long) they'll have a better idea of how much to tweak one or both of the changes to make it where players can play less time for the same scores.

I much rather they did this separately now, then when new rewards are on the line.

GrumpySmurf1002

PeterGibbons316 wrote:

This will probably make hitting progressions easier, but finishing high harder.

If this is the net result, I'm personally more than happy. Getting the 1k progression right now is near infinitely more important to me than whether I finish 5th, 15th, or 35th.

Feels like there's a lot of clarification still needed though, starting with whether matches are now maxed at 75 or not.

Wonko33

ArkPrime wrote:

You forgot the main point of the entire thing. You know when people lose to your team and you get +12 points? That's now 4 points. Remember those amazingly rare occurrences where someone who was a little over your level lost to you and you got bumped for 24 points? That's now 8 points.

For all effective purposes this "update" removes all relevance of defensive wins. Let me make this perfectly clear for those that don't know how to feel about this.

THIS CHANGE REMOVES DEFENSIVE WINS FROM THE GAME IN ANY WAY THAT MATTERS.

Focus your anger on the cheaters, that's why we can never have nice things