Season XIII Matchmaking - Discussion

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  • Name:Vinny J
    Event: Heavy Metal
    Slice: 3
    Roster: L180 Xforce, 6 maxed 3*, another 8 max covered, not levelled
    Usual PvP Placement: Top 50, around 650 points
    Experience:I entered at 467, fought one seed team (yay B4CON M4GIC ! ), then next n+1 choices, including skipping, all had 270 XF, 200+ IM40, and a maxed 3* (interestingly, I haven't seen that many cMags since "them good ol' days", when one had to match uphill both ways. in the snow)

    I really don't mind a challenge, but fer cryin' out loud, at least throw me a bone ....
  • Around 13h33m left, it's more like business as usual.
    Still around 16-20 point nodes but they aren't crazy teams... I'm assuming the 2* rosters started getting into top 5-10% and the points are trickling through.

    Looks like all pvp1000 climbers are going to do it in the last 12 hours.
    Either it'll mean it's going to be a bloodbath or 2* rosters are going to supply more points in the 550+ range. Got hit for -70 right after hitting 725.

    No point in giving up, but it doesn't look like shielding early will do much either.
  • wymtime
    wymtime Posts: 3,757 Chairperson of the Boards
    I climbed to 750 and shielded. Where art thou 2* teams. Ah forget 2* where art thou 3* only teams?? I am in the top 5 but this is brutal. Not only is it a slog to get up to 700+ points but every battle above 500 was for 20-22 points. The only big points I got was off of retaliations (Thanks Evil Panda). I can normally hit 1000 points with shields of 3,8,3. I think I am going to have to spend a little more HP this time. icon_rolleyes.gif
  • Pylgrim
    Pylgrim Posts: 2,296 Chairperson of the Boards
    Really don't get all this bellyaching. Yes, I no longer can crush 2* opponents with ease from 70 to 500 (how was that fair for them?). Yes I saw a few 4* teams but skipping a bit allowed me to find lots of rather easy 3* teams (levels 120-140). They took a bit more of time and a bit more of damage taken to defeat than the 2*s I'd normally face but it was still not super hard or anything. More importantly, I got lots of 30+ fights which was rare for me after the 200 point mark. I was attacked a few times, won more than half of those attacks. Now I am sitting at 650 behind a shield... so not so different from before?

    I think people just took forgranted that it was their right to have an easy climb to 600 on the backs of rookies and now that has been made fairer, they don't like it anymore.
  • Unknown
    edited April 2015
    I'm not sure what to make of this new system. So many things have changed rapidly to get a good feel for comparison. I have max xf and 240 4hor, plus most 3* covered and many top ones maxed. I typically finishe top12 in PVP or so with a season score around 11.5k.

    Before the thor nerf, with Xor you could basically sit at between 600-720 in pvp unshielded. From there with a 8+3 shield and some luck you could manage a 1k prog, depending on the featured char. Sometimes 8+8+3. For the most part there was only one best team: Xor. We all agreed Xor was OP, but at the same time the amount of effort (8-19 hours) to get the 1k prog felt about right. It was a weird limbo to be in, but it was admittedly fun because: 4* chars were strong, the 1k progs were decent return on invested effort, they were worth going for, and having a powerful roster including 4* gave a measurable advantage.

    Then came the thor nerf. But we never got a chance to see how the nerf alone affected the above balance, because the recent pvp test was tried about the same time -- buffing many chars. That test was interesting: The effect was rather similar to what you see in a BoP event. There were a few "best teams" rather than one best team, which felt like progress. At the same time, no team was strong enough on defense to allow you to stay unshielded for long. This had the effect of increasing the effort to hit the 1k prog, maybe even requiring use of a 24 shield to hop over a two day period. At the same time, 4hor was weakened and less attractive and rumors of XF being next continued.. and still do. At that point, the ROI for reaching the 1k prog was diminished. I would only go for a very distinct set of needed 4* covers, even more distinct than before. Meanwhile 3* became more attractive to invest in, more attractive than 4* in my opinion: cyke, IF, cage and maybe khan take priority over 4hor, prof x and likely kingpin because getting 4* requires vastly more effort for the return in power you get.

    Okay, so now we have a new matchmaking system, and reduced boosts added into the scenario. I'm around 600-700 points, shielded. What im seeing is max XF/IM/(4hor,Hood,ProfX,Loki). I can get decent fights. It appears the floor to safely sit with the strongest team you can field on defense is around 500 (long term). My sense, partly, is we are finally seeing the effect of the 4hor nerf since the buffed chars from last week are now gone. The result in my estimation is that the climb to 1k is lengthened, at least for me to the point where I'll rarely go for it. Because in addition to this, the sense of what 4* are has been weakened (from 4* to 3*+), and the ISO, time, climbing/hopping investment is just too high now to making it cumbersome (it's gone from being fun to being work).

    Perhaps it's too early to tell, but, If this matchmaking stays along with the other changes , it could work I suppose, but the prog award tiring may need to drop a bit more than they are (at least in my mind to make it worth it). Any hop to 1k prog that takes over 24 hours of coordinated hopping (i.e. You need to sleep overnight while shielded) in my opinion is too much -- it leads to burnout.

    My suggestions:

    1.I'd suggest they make a 12 hour shield, or 16 hour. If we have to work across full days to hop to 1k prog, then please at least give us the options to do so with minimal disruption to sleep/work schedules.
    2.rework the 4* tier to make them worth the effort. Buff IW, undo the overnerf on 4hor (just a tad on blue and make yellow worth using) and buff Elektra (lots of good threads on each of these items with lots of player base support). Not sure on SL, or Prof X yet.
    3.if keeping this new matchmaking, observe the data and consider balancing the reward tiering so that a 1k prog can be reached within 8-18 hours of coordinated hopping with players with strong (a subjective term left to your interpretation) rosters. This is just my opinion on what I feel is balanced to avoid player burnout while keeping players motivated.

    Lastly, undo that change to the ISO/cover sharing buttons! I've cancelled sharing rewards with friends accidentally a dozen times now and those button changes need to go the way of the dodo. Make it so that u share with friends by default button presses!
  • When i see the whales shielded at 700-800 something went right. The game is way more interesting now than it has been in past seasons. I started out with 3 seed teams, then i skipped 2* land altogether and hit 3*/4* land at around 200 points. Its become a huge furious battle all the way to about 700 points. I started taking hits from my favorite heavy hitters around 300 points. You definitely can't sit around unshielded at 700 like before, you'll get savagely wasted by others climbing. I feel like im matched with alot of players with similar roster to mine. So i like the change, just going to take some getting used to. I chose S5 for Heavy Metal. Hopefully its not always like this, i cant imagine how bad PvP will be when i dont have a high level featured character.
  • 700-800? There's tons of people in the bcs that usually shield at 1k and now are shielding sub 600. This is straight up ridiculous.
  • Spiritclaw
    Spiritclaw Posts: 397 Mover and Shaker
    I would like to see tournaments as follows, with options chosen by the player:

    Newby Tournament: No characters over level 55 may enter, best prizes include 2* characters and extra ISO, lower prizes include 1*
    Medium Tournament: No characters over level 100 may enter, best prizes include 3* characters, lower prizes include 2*
    High End Tournamet: No characters over level 150 may enter, best prizes include 4* characters, lower prizes include 3* (Roughly what we see now!)
    Aces Tournament: No characters *under* level 160 may enter, chance to win more than one 4* character (or 5* when they exist), lower prizes include 3*

    within these criteria, make matchmaking completely random (skipping becomes more useful), but cut in half the number of points you lose from being successfully attacked.
  • Arondite
    Arondite Posts: 1,188 Chairperson of the Boards
    Spiritclaw wrote:
    I would like to see tournaments as follows, with options chosen by the player:

    Newby Tournament: No characters over level 55 may enter, best prizes include 2* characters and extra ISO, lower prizes include 1*
    Medium Tournament: No characters over level 105 may enter, best prizes include 3* characters, lower prizes include 2*
    High End Tournamet: No characters over level 170 may enter, best prizes include 4* characters, lower prizes include 3* (Roughly what we see now!)
    Aces Tournament: No characters *under* level 160 may enter, chance to win more than one 4* character (or 5* when they exist), lower prizes include 3*

    within these criteria, make matchmaking completely random (skipping becomes more useful), but cut in half the number of points you lose from being successfully attacked.

    Slight tweaks made. This way maxed 3 star players can choose between coasting to a more diverse 3 star roster in the High End tournament, or duking it out for tier advancement in Aces tournament.
  • trey9
    trey9 Posts: 102
    Name: Trey9
    Event: Heavy Metal
    Slice: 4
    Roster: Maxed X-force, 16 maxed 3 stars, including IM40. Running 270 xforce, 166 hood, 290 IM40.
    Usual PvP Placement: Top 25/50
    Experience: Seeing mostly maxed x-force, maxed IM40, and another maxed 3 star, often times hood. Seeing some 140-150ish 3 stars also in the mix. Also seeing 270/270/290, but less frequently. Seeing teams worth less than me unless I skip a fair amount. All teams I see can beat me, so there is no point in attacking someone worth less than me. Playing with x force/hood every single match is not fun by any means. Scoring seems way down from what it usually is. This change actively discourages using anything but your A-team. I believe this mmr change is going to be bad for the health of this game. This again just punishes leveling your roster. And that is basically the only goal in this game. So my goal is to hinder myself and further slow my progress? Makes sense, right? I think you know the answer to that one...
  • FR3L4NCER wrote:
    When i see the whales shielded at 700-800 something went right.

    For me im not sure how to interpret it. I'm (a previous whale) shielded at 700 right now. I typically wouldn't shield this low, so maybe some would say that's progress because Xor no longer affords flight at high altitudes unshielded. I see the logic in that. But the other side of it is this: I'm not shielded because I'm going for 1k prog. I'm shielded because I'm ranked 7th and can go for Khan covers which incidentally are now more attractive than the 4* 1k prog.

    So four outcomes here that don't necessarily mean to me something is going right:

    1. 3* cover is more attractive than 4* cover (put another way, it's not worth shielding for a 4*, but it is for a 3*). That's rather odd if this becomes a trend. (IF, cage, cyke, Khan are a relatively better investment than 4hor, Elektra, Baglady, etc)
    2. I may be shielded at 700 but since I'm ~7th most others are below me. So, though the whales may be locking down and their costs increasing, it's the same or debatably worse for anyone "sub-whale". Their costs increase too, including casual and F2P players, possibly lengthening their transition.
    3. The climb to 1k becomes more costly to everyone since we're starting from a lower base. Costs not just in terms of HP, but in time spent coordinating hopping. And it takes less effort for whales than others, meaning it may result in being a regressive tax disproportionately punishing lower level players (i.e. transitioners).
    4. Since many are shielded at 700, now "the air gets thin" at lower altitudes than before. I pray I don't run into the endless cycle of 3 point nodes in my queue starting at 700-800...
  • GuntherBlobel
    GuntherBlobel Posts: 987 Critical Contributor
    Pylgrim wrote:
    Yes, I no longer can crush 2* opponents with ease from 70 to 500 (how was that fair for them?). Yes I saw a few 4* teams but skipping a bit allowed me to find lots of rather easy 3* teams (levels 120-140).
    I think people just took forgranted that it was their right to have an easy climb to 600 on the backs of rookies and now that has been made fairer, they don't like it anymore.
    This fits my experience and theres no option to vote this sentiment. Many of the vote options are concerned with low scores, but the Devs have changed Progression award thresholds in the past, so I say give it time.

    It is a dramatic change; I can agree to that. For that reason alone, I think there would be massive resistance even if this were undeniably for the best.
  • Pylgrim wrote:
    Yes, I no longer can crush 2* opponents with ease from 70 to 500 (how was that fair for them?). Yes I saw a few 4* teams but skipping a bit allowed me to find lots of rather easy 3* teams (levels 120-140).
    I think people just took forgranted that it was their right to have an easy climb to 600 on the backs of rookies and now that has been made fairer, they don't like it anymore.
    This fits my experience and theres no option to vote this sentiment. Many of the vote options are concerned with low scores, but the Devs have changed Progression award thresholds in the past, so I say give it time.

    It is a dramatic change; I can agree to that. For that reason alone, I think there would be massive resistance even if this were undeniably for the best.

    Yeah, I'd like an option for "I don't necessarily think this is a change for the worst (at least not yet before seeing some results) but either way it doesn't do anything do address any of the problems of the PvP system. It's now **** in a different way"
  • SnowcaTT
    SnowcaTT Posts: 3,486 Chairperson of the Boards
    ark123 wrote:
    700-800? There's tons of people in the bcs that usually shield at 1k and now are shielding sub 600. This is straight up ridiculous.

    I'm sitting with my team-mate exactly at 500 and we are 11/12. 669/579/553 are top three - 26 hours remain. Seven of the top ten are shielded, or like my team-mate (who intentionally tested) they might go from 700 to 500 in the span of an hour. Ridiculous indeed.
  • wymtime
    wymtime Posts: 3,757 Chairperson of the Boards
    SnowcaTT wrote:
    ark123 wrote:
    700-800? There's tons of people in the bcs that usually shield at 1k and now are shielding sub 600. This is straight up ridiculous.

    I'm sitting with my team-mate exactly at 500 and we are 11/12. 669/579/553 are top three - 26 hours remain. Seven of the top ten are shielded, or like my team-mate (who intentionally tested) they might go from 700 to 500 in the span of an hour. Ridiculous indeed.

    I fought to just under 800 and am in 3rd. The worst thing is the most points you can find is 19 after a ton of skips and if you break shield you can be hit for 50.

    Are we having fun yet?
  • Ebolamonkey84
    Ebolamonkey84 Posts: 509 Critical Contributor
    Name: Ebolamonkey84
    Event: Heavy Metal
    Slice: 4
    Roster: Level 221 5/5/3 XForce, 8 max 3*, 12 max covered 3* over 133, 9 max cover 3* over 111
    Usual PvP Placement: Top 10 or top 25, 890 average last season
    Experience: Got past 3 seeds, saw maxed level 166s with lower IM40s (<150), or underleveled 3* with 200+ IM40. Started with XF/max LDaken no boosts. Skipped any team worth less than 25 as all of them could beat me in a retal. Had one or two matches before bad board caused me to get hit with Ballistic Salvo. Went to Prologue heal. Health pack on IM40. Two more matches before I had to prologue heal again. Stopped PVP for a PVE pass. Decided to switch to XF max Hood with G/B and R/Y boosts. Played randomly throughout the day and got to about 550. I have been attacked more in this event before hitting 500 than I usually am in any other PVP where I broke 1000.

    As an alliance commander, the other two commanders and I agreed to remove our PVP minimums for this event (usually 700/800) to prevent our members from pulling their hair out. We still have at least two members that will probably quit if it stays like this.

    I have a full time job, a wife and a toddler. My usual play style is to play a few random matches throughout the first two days when I get a few spare minutes until I get to about 650 or so. I could typically stay at that point until I was ready to push. Then I would push as far as I could until I either ran out of health packs or hits start coming in, which typically gets me around 800 or so. That style of play does not seem feasible for me anymore.

    I only need 21 total 3* covers among 8 characters before they are all cover maxed. I need 36 4* covers. The only reason I play the majority of the PVPs at this point is for the 4* progression and because I have enjoyed being in my alliance for 6 seasons.
  • I'm not really sure what to make of this. I don't think it's bad, but it's also definitely not good either. Usually when there's a change to MMR it shuffles the good/bad to a different subset of players and the guys who are impacted negatively complaints. With this change, I can see the bad got shifted to a different set of players but I'm not sure who is getting the good part. It seems like this is something half of a solution and there needs to be something else radical, like say get rid of shields and then implement one of the 'crazy talk' ideas where you can't lose more than X points in a certain amount of time (you can't possibly have this + shields and still have an environment that makes sense), or something equally crazy. Right now looking at the bracket it seems like there's extreme paranoia where everyone and their brother is shielded out of fear of suddenly losing 200 points that's usually only seen at the end of seasons when people are fighting for placement. While that might superficially lead to more revenue via shields, I don't think that can possibly be good for the game in an environment where everyone is too afraid to play the game because that'd involve breaking shields and summarily getting beat up by a bunch of thugs and lose all your points. I don't mind that so I'm not bothered by this, but I'm pretty sure the way I approach PvP is nothing like how most people approach it.
  • Spoit
    Spoit Posts: 3,441 Chairperson of the Boards
    j12601 wrote:
    DaPuzzler wrote:
    Why should you be entitled to reach 800 points with most of your games being walkovers?


    Why? Because we're competing for the same rewards as the 1 and 2* players are. I'm not sure I would use the word entitled, but what is the point in maxing out characters when it apparently will now serve no purpose? It has also never been a cakewalk to 800. After about 5-600 MMR stopped affecting match making and everyone could hit everyone else.

    If the idea is that in order to win your bracket of 500 players, you have to have a higher score than the other 499 players, then you should be able to attack all of those players, whether they have 1, 2, 3, or 4* rosters. There is no sense at all in segregating players by roster for match making, but not for bracketing and rewards. Want to only face other 2* players, never be attacked by 3/4*? Then you don't need 3* cover rewards you need 2* cover rewards. If you want 3 & 4* rewards, then you should have to compete with those players, be able to attack them, and they should be able to attack you.
    Uh...where have you been the last, like, half year+? Death sharding brackets have been a thing forever now
  • Ebolamonkey84
    Ebolamonkey84 Posts: 509 Critical Contributor
    edited April 2015
    Phantron wrote:
    I'm not really sure what to make of this. I don't think it's bad, but it's also definitely not good either. Usually when there's a change to MMR it shuffles the good/bad to a different subset of players and the guys who are impacted negatively complaints. With this change, I can see the bad got shifted to a different set of players but I'm not sure who is getting the good part. It seems like this is something half of a solution and there needs to be something else radical, like say get rid of shields and then implement one of the 'crazy talk' ideas where you can't lose more than X points in a certain amount of time (you can't possibly have this + shields and still have an environment that makes sense), or something equally crazy. Right now looking at the bracket it seems like there's extreme paranoia where everyone and their brother is shielded out of fear of suddenly losing 200 points that's usually only seen at the end of seasons when people are fighting for placement. While that might superficially lead to more revenue via shields, I don't think that can possibly be good for the game in an environment where everyone is too afraid to play the game because that'd involve breaking shields and summarily getting beat up by a bunch of thugs and lose all your points. I don't mind that so I'm not bothered by this, but I'm pretty sure the way I approach PvP is nothing like how most people approach it.

    What do you mean you don't know who is getting the good part? 2* players are getting the benefit in the short term because they can now get to at least 600 before being seen by any 3* teams. 600 may not seem like that much but that would put you in 4th place in my bracket currently. So they will be able to place better and get more 3* covers until they get to the point where they could theoretically max two of them to 166. Then they will be screwed like everyone else with 3* rosters. They already made the 3 to 4* progression irrelevant by making most 4* not worth the investment needed. Now they are making the 2 to 3* progression irrelevant as well.

    We already have people gaming the PVE system by not leveling any of their 3* characters too much; that seems like the optimal strategy for PVP now as well.
  • I started out to help out a bit with gathering data. Hasn't hurt me too bad. I roll a topped out X-Force and have a bunch of 3* to support him. I did have to break one team of 270 X-Force/LadyThor, but that match was rating at 48 points, so I would likely have taken it in any scenario while climbing. Otherwise I seemed to have mostly 3* teams, mixed with characters and levels.

    I stopped under 400 points though, in the first shard. Points seemed low all over, and I simply didn't have time to play more at the time.