**** Professor X (Charles Xavier) ****

Unknown

aesthetocyst wrote:

orionpeace wrote:

aesthetocyst wrote:

And have (belatedly) made right a few past over-corrections.

I am not aware of an instance where they severely nerfed a character and then increased the power to bring said character up to or above par.

Can you give an example of this behavior?

Without digging too deeply, one off the top of my head ... Loki.

They tried with Rags, but fell short of the mark, tho not as badly as posers here allege. He is much more useful now, better represents the character, but certainly isn't on many 1st-string PVP teams (unless mega-buffed ... or required LOL). After their initial debut with 4Thor, the devs are hilariously overvaluing charged tiles.

They have improved numerous characters after release (XF, Doom, IW (finally), OBW), but those were partially or completely stillborn.

rags not better

ShionSinX wrote:

I really, REALLY dont want to see MPQ turning into a tinykitty DotA 2

my feelings....

Der_Lex

ShionSinX wrote:

I really, REALLY dont want to see MPQ turning into a tinykitty DotA 2, where you have to fight broken characters and combos with even more broken and cheesy strategies. No, please. Nerfs are needed to balance every game with a PvP feature, simple.

Im NOT saying that we need to DELETE a character in order to balace it tho, like did with XF green. The idea of a 2-turn CD that generates the 4AP, just the exact same amount of AP we have now its perfect, gives some kind of opening to a counterplay.

Anything that does not has counterplay possibilities become frustrating and only hurt one side while the other does NOT gains the same amount of enjoyment. ITS A TINIKITTY MACHINE. Yes, the player winning on defense will like the free points, but it could be less, way less, frustrating if the lose was because the player couldnt deny enough AP so it took a SS to the face, or accidentaly cascaded into a match-4 and enemy Loki took important AP from it. This is ok, but not "ZOMG LETS CASCADE THIS PLAYER TO THE DEATH AND DEAL 13K ON THREE CRITICALS AND USE ALL THIS BLUE AP TO STUN THE ENEMY ALIVE WITH THORESS' kind of thing. Yeah you took 3 criticals and lost a character, but then the AI being rewarded even more with instant AP is just wrong; as I said before theres no counterplay to be done as we cant control the cascades.

KEEP NERFING, BUT NOT TOO MUCH.

I don't mean this the wrong way, but if you're a transitioning 2-3* player, as you have mentioned to be in the other thread, you shouldn't be attacking a Thoress/Prof X team in the first place. Or if you do, realize you have a very good chance of failing because you're punching above your weight.

A solid 3* roster, possibly with one or 2 4*s, has plenty of ways to take out Xavier before he becomes an issue. Especially since the AI can't make match-5's worth a damn. Focusing on X and his relatively few HP first, using stuns of your own, bringing team damage dealers and/or special tile destroyers to stop his invisibility are all more than effective enough. Of course cascades of doom will still most likely kill you, but that usually happens regardless of what team the AI has; Xavier only speeds up the process. Likewise, Magstique was an infinite before Xavier entered the mix, again he only facilitated the process. IF/QS/X is close to being a loop, but not quite there, and is absolute tissue paper on defense, which is a huge liability. when trying to get to 1k points or higher.

X already took a big hit when they nerfed his yellow before release. As long as the devs are somewhat careful about AP generating characters in the future, there is no need for further nerfs. The devs are already goig too far on nerfs for characters that actually deserve them, please let's not encourage them to nerf pre-emptively as well.

Unknown

Seriously, no one here can promote a buff? not even players? lol

reckless442

Der_Lex wrote:

ShionSinX wrote:

I really, REALLY dont want to see MPQ turning into a tinykitty DotA 2, where you have to fight broken characters and combos with even more broken and cheesy strategies. No, please. Nerfs are needed to balance every game with a PvP feature, simple.

Im NOT saying that we need to DELETE a character in order to balace it tho, like did with XF green. The idea of a 2-turn CD that generates the 4AP, just the exact same amount of AP we have now its perfect, gives some kind of opening to a counterplay.

Anything that does not has counterplay possibilities become frustrating and only hurt one side while the other does NOT gains the same amount of enjoyment. ITS A TINIKITTY MACHINE. Yes, the player winning on defense will like the free points, but it could be less, way less, frustrating if the lose was because the player couldnt deny enough AP so it took a SS to the face, or accidentaly cascaded into a match-4 and enemy Loki took important AP from it. This is ok, but not "ZOMG LETS CASCADE THIS PLAYER TO THE DEATH AND DEAL 13K ON THREE CRITICALS AND USE ALL THIS BLUE AP TO STUN THE ENEMY ALIVE WITH THORESS' kind of thing. Yeah you took 3 criticals and lost a character, but then the AI being rewarded even more with instant AP is just wrong; as I said before theres no counterplay to be done as we cant control the cascades.

KEEP NERFING, BUT NOT TOO MUCH.

I don't mean this the wrong way, but if you're a transitioning 2-3* player, as you have mentioned to be in the other thread, you shouldn't be attacking a Thoress/Prof X team in the first place. Or if you do, realize you have a very good chance of failing because you're punching above your weight.

A solid 3* roster, possibly with one or 2 4*s, has plenty of ways to take out Xavier before he becomes an issue. Especially since the AI can't make match-5's worth a damn. Focusing on X and his relatively few HP first, using stuns of your own, bringing team damage dealers and/or special tile destroyers to stop his invisibility are all more than effective enough. Of course cascades of doom will still most likely kill you, but that usually happens regardless of what team the AI has; Xavier only speeds up the process. Likewise, Magstique was an infinite before Xavier entered the mix, again he only facilitated the process. IF/QS/X is close to being a loop, but not quite there, and is absolute tissue paper on defense, which is a huge liability. when trying to get to 1k points or higher.

X already took a big hit when they nerfed his yellow before release. As long as the devs are somewhat careful about AP generating characters in the future, there is no need for further nerfs. The devs are already goig too far on nerfs for characters that actually deserve them, please let's not encourage them to nerf pre-emptively as well.

This times 10.

For Prof X to work in a loop, he has to be paired with TWO other low-health characters. That makes him pretty easy to defeat. He is not hard to kill and without him, Mystique/Iron Fist/Quicksilver/GSBW all do pretty minimal damage before you can beat them. In fact, the reports I've had from people who have wiped to my Prof X teams have almost always said the loss was due to Prof X going invisible. It's not his AP generation that causes problems. I can say from experience, he certainly is no deterrent to attacks.

Prof X does no direct damage on his own. He doesn't heal. He doesn't stun. His passive requires you to make a match-5.

In short, he is nothing like Sentry/Hood, who could defeat you in three turns on his own using two powers regardless of the third character and had a high-health character (Sentry). He is not like XF/4Thor, who could beat you on their own, again without regard for the third character, had two massive damage dealers, stole ISO, stunned, generated AP (through charged tiles with triple-AP), and had high health character (4Thor). Any comparison to those combinations is just silly.

And, for god sakes, why does every "fix" people suggest have powers triggered by countdown tiles. They don't work worth a damn because they half the time they are matched away, and even when they do work, they cause match times to increase. Why is it so hard for people to accept characters whose powers are reliable and do what they are supposed to?

Unknown

reckless442 wrote:

Der_Lex wrote:

ShionSinX wrote:

I really, REALLY dont want to see MPQ turning into a tinykitty DotA 2, where you have to fight broken characters and combos with even more broken and cheesy strategies. No, please. Nerfs are needed to balance every game with a PvP feature, simple.

Im NOT saying that we need to DELETE a character in order to balace it tho, like did with XF green. The idea of a 2-turn CD that generates the 4AP, just the exact same amount of AP we have now its perfect, gives some kind of opening to a counterplay.

Anything that does not has counterplay possibilities become frustrating and only hurt one side while the other does NOT gains the same amount of enjoyment. ITS A TINIKITTY MACHINE. Yes, the player winning on defense will like the free points, but it could be less, way less, frustrating if the lose was because the player couldnt deny enough AP so it took a SS to the face, or accidentaly cascaded into a match-4 and enemy Loki took important AP from it. This is ok, but not "ZOMG LETS CASCADE THIS PLAYER TO THE DEATH AND DEAL 13K ON THREE CRITICALS AND USE ALL THIS BLUE AP TO STUN THE ENEMY ALIVE WITH THORESS' kind of thing. Yeah you took 3 criticals and lost a character, but then the AI being rewarded even more with instant AP is just wrong; as I said before theres no counterplay to be done as we cant control the cascades.

KEEP NERFING, BUT NOT TOO MUCH.

I don't mean this the wrong way, but if you're a transitioning 2-3* player, as you have mentioned to be in the other thread, you shouldn't be attacking a Thoress/Prof X team in the first place. Or if you do, realize you have a very good chance of failing because you're punching above your weight.

A solid 3* roster, possibly with one or 2 4*s, has plenty of ways to take out Xavier before he becomes an issue. Especially since the AI can't make match-5's worth a damn. Focusing on X and his relatively few HP first, using stuns of your own, bringing team damage dealers and/or special tile destroyers to stop his invisibility are all more than effective enough. Of course cascades of doom will still most likely kill you, but that usually happens regardless of what team the AI has; Xavier only speeds up the process. Likewise, Magstique was an infinite before Xavier entered the mix, again he only facilitated the process. IF/QS/X is close to being a loop, but not quite there, and is absolute tissue paper on defense, which is a huge liability. when trying to get to 1k points or higher.

X already took a big hit when they nerfed his yellow before release. As long as the devs are somewhat careful about AP generating characters in the future, there is no need for further nerfs. The devs are already goig too far on nerfs for characters that actually deserve them, please let's not encourage them to nerf pre-emptively as well.

This times 10.

For Prof X to work in a loop, he has to be paired with TWO other low-health characters. That makes him pretty easy to defeat. He is not hard to kill and without him, Mystique/Iron Fist/Quicksilver/GSBW all do pretty minimal damage before you can beat them. In fact, the reports I've had from people who have wiped to my Prof X teams have almost always said the loss was due to Prof X going invisible. It's not his AP generation that causes problems. I can say from experience, he certainly is no deterrent to attacks.

Prof X does no direct damage on his own. He doesn't heal. He doesn't stun. His passive requires you to make a match-5.

In short, he is nothing like Sentry/Hood, who could defeat you in three turns on his own using two powers regardless of the third character and had a high-health character (Sentry). He is not like XF/4Thor, who could beat you on their own, again without regard for the third character, had two massive damage dealers, stole ISO, stunned, generated AP (through charged tiles with triple-AP), and had high health character (4Thor). Any comparison to those combinations is just silly.

And, for god sakes, why does every "fix" people suggest have powers triggered by countdown tiles. They don't work worth a damn because they half the time they are matched away, and even when they do work, they cause match times to increase. Why is it so hard for people to accept characters whose powers are reliable and do what they are supposed to?

This was the logic we used to try to save magstorm and winfinite.

D3 said they were "too boring".

Guess what D3 will think of SonOfMagstorm soon enough?

Blade's countdowns work, Rocket & Groot's countdown work

Unknown

Der_Lex wrote:

I don't mean this the wrong way, but if you're a transitioning 2-3* player, as you have mentioned to be in the other thread, you shouldn't be attacking a Thoress/Prof X team in the first place. Or if you do, realize you have a very good chance of failing because you're punching above your weight.

A solid 3* roster, possibly with one or 2 4*s, has plenty of ways to take out Xavier before he becomes an issue. Especially since the AI can't make match-5's worth a damn. Focusing on X and his relatively few HP first, using stuns of your own, bringing team damage dealers and/or special tile destroyers to stop his invisibility are all more than effective enough. Of course cascades of doom will still most likely kill you, but that usually happens regardless of what team the AI has; Xavier only speeds up the process. Likewise, Magstique was an infinite before Xavier entered the mix, again he only facilitated the process. IF/QS/X is close to being a loop, but not quite there, and is absolute tissue paper on defense, which is a huge liability. when trying to get to 1k points or higher.

X already took a big hit when they nerfed his yellow before release. As long as the devs are somewhat careful about AP generating characters in the future, there is no need for further nerfs. The devs are already goig too far on nerfs for characters that actually deserve them, please let's not encourage them to nerf pre-emptively as well.

There was not even a moment I said I do it, hell no. I dont even try against most 3* teams. I made a general statment about a game I play and compared to how I see other games that are heavily dependant on strategy against multiple factors work.

Der_Lex

ShionSinX wrote:

Der_Lex wrote:

I don't mean this the wrong way, but if you're a transitioning 2-3* player, as you have mentioned to be in the other thread, you shouldn't be attacking a Thoress/Prof X team in the first place. Or if you do, realize you have a very good chance of failing because you're punching above your weight.

A solid 3* roster, possibly with one or 2 4*s, has plenty of ways to take out Xavier before he becomes an issue. Especially since the AI can't make match-5's worth a damn. Focusing on X and his relatively few HP first, using stuns of your own, bringing team damage dealers and/or special tile destroyers to stop his invisibility are all more than effective enough. Of course cascades of doom will still most likely kill you, but that usually happens regardless of what team the AI has; Xavier only speeds up the process. Likewise, Magstique was an infinite before Xavier entered the mix, again he only facilitated the process. IF/QS/X is close to being a loop, but not quite there, and is absolute tissue paper on defense, which is a huge liability. when trying to get to 1k points or higher.

X already took a big hit when they nerfed his yellow before release. As long as the devs are somewhat careful about AP generating characters in the future, there is no need for further nerfs. The devs are already goig too far on nerfs for characters that actually deserve them, please let's not encourage them to nerf pre-emptively as well.

There was not even a moment I said I do it, hell no. I dont even try against most 3* teams. I made a general statment about a game I play and compared to how I see other games that are heavily dependant on strategy against multiple factors work.

That's fine, I tried to make it clear in that post that it wasn't an 'attack' or something against you personally, just a general statement as well. I do think, though, that although all input tends to be interesting and welcome (hey, it's a forum after all), I do think that it might be a bit tough for anyone who isn't playing at the 3* and up tier to really comment on whether a 4* is too powerful, since they have little experience playing actual matches against that character. A lot of characters who sound scary on paper are easy enough to tackle when you have a decent roster yourself, although I'll happily admit that there are characters/teams that I won't hit until I'm at 800+ points and they offer 30+ points, because otherwise they're way more trouble than they're worth. But 'difficult' does not equal 'unbeatable' and 'powerful' does not equal 'overpowered'.

If we're going to have a discussion about potentially nerfing a character, I think it's only constructive to have feedback from people who either run the character themselves or fight him on a regular basis. I might not agree with phaser on this, but I see where he's coming from and I know he has the experience in the game to back up his opinions. It's a bit difficult because I don't feel anyone should be excluded from discussions, and don't want to be elitist, but on the other hand I don't think it's right or fair for a player to call for nerfs for a top level play character if they aren't at that level themselves yet.

Unknown

I dont think that much is needed in this case, because the power we are discussing lacks totally the counterplay it needs for its strenght. Its not only a free nuke in case you lucked out a crit, it speeds up giving a triple reward for something that maybe only the AI can do reliably.

I see people saying that the AI cheats creating cascades but I think the tile creation is indeed RNGed but the AI can see a step foward. Ive seen the AI do a lot of double matches (2 3-matches with one move), but I also saw it skipping those for one simple match-3 that ended in a cascade or at least another match 3 or 4 on the top.

A change like posted there, changing instant 4 AP for a CD that gives that same amount and type of AP, does give the needed counterplay after a double bad effects (critical and a 4k nuke) while not making the character unplayable.

Der_Lex

I personally think they AI cascade creation theories are mere conspiracy theories, and I don't think something that isn't proven is a firm basis for any kind of decision.

What makes X's blue power so special that it requires a special counter? Any other power in the game cannot be countered once its requirements are met, whether that's a sufficient amount of generated AP, a sufficient amount of a certain type of tiles on the board (like Blade or Hood) or the right kind of match being made (like Daken or Falcon's powers). The latter kind even triggers if the opponent makes the match in question, but I don't see any complaints about that power being 'uncounterable'. We even have some powers now that automatically trigger every turn as long as the character is alive (IF, Cage, SW).

Prof X's blue is a power that, to have it consistently work in your favor, you need to construct a specific team around to make match-5's happen. This brings with it its own two inherent counters:

1: Any character that allows you to specifically place certain tiles to create Match 5's is on the lower end of the HP scale (and the tile placement of meatier characters like lThor is random, therefore unreliable), which leaves very little margin for error on attack and, in top level play, makes your team a very tempting target.

2: On defense, the AI is utterly unable to execute the more complex setups required to make a team like this work, thus making it even weaker on defense. So unless your combo is really, really fast, you'll end up losing more points than you're gaining when you get high enough on the points ladder and try to climb/hop. That makes the 'bad cascade' situation you mention the only case in which the team will occasionally score a defensive win.

How are these two points in themselves not enough of a counter for you?

Unknown

Its because it double rewards for something that is a reward by itself. A critical alredy generates more AP than usual and multiplies damage, then PX comes and deals free damage on top of that and then it also gives you instant AP.

Its like the pre-nerf SS that was obviously the best power in the game because it had a big damage, reduced enemy's strongest color AP, removed the strongest enemy tiles and gave you the AP for it.

The counterplay was either deny AP or steal/remove AP; but then you cant control all colored tiles in the board at same time so the AI never has a change to get a critical because the color of it doesnt matters for PX, any critical will do and they happen, sometimes a lot.

orionpeace

aesthetocyst wrote:

orionpeace wrote:

aesthetocyst wrote:

And have (belatedly) made right a few past over-corrections.

I am not aware of an instance where they severely nerfed a character and then increased the power to bring said character up to or above par.

Can you give an example of this behavior?

Without digging too deeply, one off the top of my head ... Loki. Loki was initially too powerful, a board-flooder, then gutted, near useless for a year, then greatly enhanced.

They tried with Rags, but fell short of the mark, though not as badly as posters here allege. He is much more useful now, better represents the character, but certainly isn't on many 1st-string PVP teams (unless mega-buffed ... or required LOL). After their initial debut with 4Thor, the devs are hilariously overvaluing charged tiles. Charged tiles weren't the problem with 4Thor, Smite damage being based on them was. Charged tiles alone have very little impact on a match. Rabs pitiful 2 or 3 may as well not even be on the board.

They have improved numerous characters after release (XF, Doom, IW (finally), OBW), but those were partially or completely stillborn, rather than being nerfed.

So there is one example where they improved a character after a nerf. And it took them how long to get around to that? Nearly a year?

You can understand why many are concerned when they nerf.

Der_Lex

ShionSinX wrote:

Its because it double rewards for something that is a reward by itself. A critical alredy generates more AP than usual and multiplies damage, then PX comes and deals free damage on top of that and then it also gives you instant AP.

Its like the pre-nerf SS that was obviously the best power in the game because it had a big damage, reduced enemy's strongest color AP, removed the strongest enemy tiles and gave you the AP for it.

The counterplay was either deny AP or steal/remove AP; but then you cant control all colored tiles in the board at same time so the AI never has a change to get a critical because the color of it doesnt matters for PX, any critical will do and they happen, sometimes a lot.

Making something that is already advantageous to the player better is not something that's inherently overpowered, even if it adds two improvements instead of just one.

Surgical Strike was overly powerful not simply because it did three different things, but because it did three different things to such a degree that it was hard if not impossible to come back from being on the receiving end of one. On average, it did roughly about 6000 HP worth of damage, gained you 8+ AP, and drained 10 from your opponent. And this on a character with true healing that was almost guaranteed to live to the point of collecting the 11 AP needed.

Can you honestly say that an ability that does 4000 damage and gains you 4 AP on one of the 4*'s with the lowest amount of hit points is on par with that? An ability that is nowhere near being the most powerful one in the game?

Getting a Mastermind to the face hurts, but it won't cost you the game, especially not with the increased HP for many characters. The AI gaining 4 AP in one color won't matter at all if you've denied it that color otherwise. Kingpin or OBW can steal just as much after only 3 regular matches, and Hood can drain it automatically in 4 turns.
And yes, you can get hit out of the blue with one with some bad luck, but that won't immediately cost you the game, and is more than balanced by the fact that the AI can't purposefully work towards is, because it literally cannot make a Match-5 unless you've really left it no other option (IE: it can't make a match-4 instead), in which case it's really pretty much your own fault.

I can see why you wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of one, never mind multiple ones, even though the chances of that happening in any given game are slim. But that doesn't prove to me how it's so game-breakingly overpowered that it needs a nerf.

Unknown

orionpeace wrote:

aesthetocyst wrote:

orionpeace wrote:

aesthetocyst wrote:

And have (belatedly) made right a few past over-corrections.

I am not aware of an instance where they severely nerfed a character and then increased the power to bring said character up to or above par.

Can you give an example of this behavior?

Without digging too deeply, one off the top of my head ... Loki. Loki was initially too powerful, a board-flooder, then gutted, near useless for a year, then greatly enhanced.

They tried with Rags, but fell short of the mark, though not as badly as posters here allege. He is much more useful now, better represents the character, but certainly isn't on many 1st-string PVP teams (unless mega-buffed ... or required LOL). After their initial debut with 4Thor, the devs are hilariously overvaluing charged tiles. Charged tiles weren't the problem with 4Thor, Smite damage being based on them was. Charged tiles alone have very little impact on a match. Rabs pitiful 2 or 3 may as well not even be on the board.

They have improved numerous characters after release (XF, Doom, IW (finally), OBW), but those were partially or completely stillborn, rather than being nerfed.

So there is one example where they improved a character after a nerf. And it took them how long to get around to that? Nearly a year?

You can understand why many are concerned when they nerf.

You're blaming someone that has very little to do with the ACTUAL problem. At least the one you're talking about.

Der_Lex wrote:

ShionSinX wrote:

Its because it double rewards for something that is a reward by itself. A critical alredy generates more AP than usual and multiplies damage, then PX comes and deals free damage on top of that and then it also gives you instant AP.

Its like the pre-nerf SS that was obviously the best power in the game because it had a big damage, reduced enemy's strongest color AP, removed the strongest enemy tiles and gave you the AP for it.

The counterplay was either deny AP or steal/remove AP; but then you cant control all colored tiles in the board at same time so the AI never has a change to get a critical because the color of it doesnt matters for PX, any critical will do and they happen, sometimes a lot.

Making something that is already advantageous to the player better is not something that's inherently overpowered, even if it adds two improvements instead of just one.

Surgical Strike was overly powerful not simply because it did three different things, but because it did three different things to such a degree that it was hard if not impossible to come back from being on the receiving end of one. On average, it did roughly about 6000 HP worth of damage, gained you 8+ AP, and drained 10 from your opponent. And this on a character with true healing that was almost guaranteed to live to the point of collecting the 11 AP needed.

Can you honestly say that an ability that does 4000 damage and gains you 4 AP on one of the 4*'s with the lowest amount of hit points is on par with that? An ability that is nowhere near being the most powerful one in the game?

Getting a Mastermind to the face hurts, but it won't cost you the game, especially not with the increased HP for many characters. The AI gaining 4 AP in one color won't matter at all if you've denied it that color otherwise. Kingpin or OBW can steal just as much after only 3 regular matches, and Hood can drain it automatically in 4 turns.
And yes, you can get hit out of the blue with one with some bad luck, but that won't immediately cost you the game, and is more than balanced by the fact that the AI can't purposefully work towards is, because it literally cannot make a Match-5 unless you've really left it no other option (IE: it can't make a match-4 instead), in which case it's really pretty much your own fault.

I can see why you wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of one, never mind multiple ones, even though the chances of that happening in any given game are slim. But that doesn't prove to me how it's so game-breakingly overpowered that it needs a nerf.

Nature abhors a vacuum.

Unknown

So you pointed XF's true healing, but did not pointed PX's invencibility? A bad board is all it takes to make you not reach that invisible tile, no matter if he was at full or 1 HP only, until you take it or has an AoE he might land from none to 10 criticals. Its a gamble for him to be able or not to deal damage back, but the longer it takes the higher the chances are that somehing goes bad for you. If not because you lost, because it took so much time to win that you were attacked 5 times on defense. So just by one out of three abilities you alredy want to skip him on hops, and its not even the power people want to be balanced.

Unknown

Professor X's ability is broken in a very unique way. Functionally, he'd be the same as if there's a character that has only this passive: "Whenever you win a game under 10 turns rated at least normal, gain 100 extra PvP points or triple the node's base value and gain 1000 HP (Hero Points)." This character would always show up in every broken team despite having no useful abilities whatsoever. Of course, Professor X is a bit better than that, but he's really a bandwagoner so far as balance goes.

One interesting side effect is that you can pretty much identify all the broken duos based on Professor X's presence because he's the fastest bandwagon guy out there.

Der_Lex

ShionSinX wrote:

So you pointed XF's true healing, but did not pointed PX's invencibility? A bad board is all it takes to make you not reach that invisible tile, no matter if he was at full or 1 HP only, until you take it or has an AoE he might land from none to 10 criticals. Its a gamble for him to be able or not to deal damage back, but the longer it takes the higher the chances are that somehing goes bad for you. If not because you lost, because it took so much time to win that you were attacked 5 times on defense. So just by one out of three abilities you alredy want to skip him on hops, and its not even the power people want to be balanced.

I already mentioned when I replied to your previous post that there are several ways of dealing with X's invisibility tile: purple denial, team damage, targeted board destruction or overwriting it with cap. If you go into a fight against X without any of those means, it's your own mistake.

As you say, it's a gamble to fight him, just like it's a gamble to fight any high-level character. Despite their nerfs, xthor will still ruin your day really fast if the AI gets a couple of cascades and/or 8 blue. If Fury gets his Demolition off, you can pretty much kiss a character goodbye unless you can kill him fast enough. If you're not willing to risk that gamble, hit the skip button. But as someone who actually does take on teams with prof X in them pretty regularly, with a bit of planning and if you make him your primary target (just like you'd target Hood, Loki, Thoress or any other troublesome character first), Prof X will be dead 9 times out of 10 before he can do any real damage. And that final 1 out of 10 bad luck factor is there against any opposing team.

raisinbman wrote:

Nature abhors a vacuum.

That's a really poetic way to say "there'll always be an ability that people will complain about."

orionpeace

raisinbman wrote:

orionpeace wrote:

aesthetocyst wrote:

orionpeace wrote:

I am not aware of an instance where they severely nerfed a character and then increased the power to bring said character up to or above par.

Can you give an example of this behavior?

Without digging too deeply, one off the top of my head ... Loki. Loki was initially too powerful, a board-flooder, then gutted, near useless for a year, then greatly enhanced.

They tried with Rags, but fell short of the mark, though not as badly as posters here allege. He is much more useful now, better represents the character, but certainly isn't on many 1st-string PVP teams (unless mega-buffed ... or required LOL). After their initial debut with 4Thor, the devs are hilariously overvaluing charged tiles. Charged tiles weren't the problem with 4Thor, Smite damage being based on them was. Charged tiles alone have very little impact on a match. Rabs pitiful 2 or 3 may as well not even be on the board.

They have improved numerous characters after release (XF, Doom, IW (finally), OBW), but those were partially or completely stillborn, rather than being nerfed.

So there is one example where they improved a character after a nerf. And it took them how long to get around to that? Nearly a year?

You can understand why many are concerned when they nerf.

You're blaming someone that has very little to do with the ACTUAL problem. At least the one you're talking about.

I'm not blaming anyone for anything. I am expressing my concern for how D3 executes tuning characters down - nerfing.

He provided an example. One. The only one. Of when they tuned a character up after a nerf.

And I pointed to how long that took.

No blame. Just observations and concern.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

Unknown

orionpeace wrote:

I'm not blaming anyone for anything. I am expressing my concern for how D3 executes tuning characters down - nerfing.

He provided an example. One. The only one. Of when they tuned a character up after a nerf.

And I pointed to how long that took.

No blame. Just observations and concern.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

Your concern is irrelevant.

This thread is about fixing characters. Not how long. Not how often. Not how much or how little. It's a call to nerf.

I mean honestly, the person gave you exactly what you ask for and you derail with a BUT BUT BUT

Unknown

And its a relevant example, not for being the only one but also because it shows how a character can be annoying and effective w/o being straightfoward OP for giving openings to counterplay in a mechanic that doesnt involves solely AP denial to not use the power. Its a passive, a very effective (read annoying) and well tuned one that can be used here: CD tile for AP. And see, its not even the very same, as Loki's comes from opponent activation, has multiple tiles and steals AP instead of generating, so cant even say its not valid because its not unique.

orionpeace

raisinbman wrote:

orionpeace wrote:

I'm not blaming anyone for anything. I am expressing my concern for how D3 executes tuning characters down - nerfing.

He provided an example. One. The only one. Of when they tuned a character up after a nerf.

And I pointed to how long that took.

No blame. Just observations and concern.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

Your concern is irrelevant.

This thread is about fixing characters. Not how long. Not how often. Not how much or how little. It's a call to nerf.

I mean honestly, the person gave you exactly what you ask for and you derail with a BUT BUT BUT

Wow dude. Check yourself.

I am saying that a call for a nerf is ill advised and why. I'm on topic and my concerns are relevant. You just disagree and think the need for the nerf overrides any concern.