**** Professor X (Charles Xavier) ****

reckless442

Der_Lex wrote:

ShionSinX wrote:

So you pointed XF's true healing, but did not pointed PX's invencibility? A bad board is all it takes to make you not reach that invisible tile, no matter if he was at full or 1 HP only, until you take it or has an AoE he might land from none to 10 criticals. Its a gamble for him to be able or not to deal damage back, but the longer it takes the higher the chances are that somehing goes bad for you. If not because you lost, because it took so much time to win that you were attacked 5 times on defense. So just by one out of three abilities you alredy want to skip him on hops, and its not even the power people want to be balanced.

I already mentioned when I replied to your previous post that there are several ways of dealing with X's invisibility tile: purple denial, team damage, targeted board destruction or overwriting it with cap. If you go into a fight against X without any of those means, it's your own mistake.

As you say, it's a gamble to fight him, just like it's a gamble to fight any high-level character. Despite their nerfs, xthor will still ruin your day really fast if the AI gets a couple of cascades and/or 8 blue. If Fury gets his Demolition off, you can pretty much kiss a character goodbye unless you can kill him fast enough. If you're not willing to risk that gamble, hit the skip button. But as someone who actually does take on teams with prof X in them pretty regularly, with a bit of planning and if you make him your primary target (just like you'd target Hood, Loki, Thoress or any other troublesome character first), Prof X will be dead 9 times out of 10 before he can do any real damage. And that final 1 out of 10 bad luck factor is there against any opposing team.

Let me add one other major point. Prof X's invisibility is the same color as the two best pairings for match-5s -- IF and GSBW. So when you play Prof X, you often have to choose whether to rely on invisibility (a very slow way to win) or use purple for a different task. It is rare to use his blue and purple in the same game. When it happens, it is usually because the character with the other purple power is dead.

Unknown

Well, Professor X does present a matchup nightmare if you don't have an active purple, but fighting a guy who has a killer move in one color while you have nothing in that color so you can't even deny that color (because you're just skipping your turn to get that color) is always a bad idea.

Spoit

reckless442 wrote:

Der_Lex wrote:

ShionSinX wrote:

So you pointed XF's true healing, but did not pointed PX's invencibility? A bad board is all it takes to make you not reach that invisible tile, no matter if he was at full or 1 HP only, until you take it or has an AoE he might land from none to 10 criticals. Its a gamble for him to be able or not to deal damage back, but the longer it takes the higher the chances are that somehing goes bad for you. If not because you lost, because it took so much time to win that you were attacked 5 times on defense. So just by one out of three abilities you alredy want to skip him on hops, and its not even the power people want to be balanced.

I already mentioned when I replied to your previous post that there are several ways of dealing with X's invisibility tile: purple denial, team damage, targeted board destruction or overwriting it with cap. If you go into a fight against X without any of those means, it's your own mistake.

As you say, it's a gamble to fight him, just like it's a gamble to fight any high-level character. Despite their nerfs, xthor will still ruin your day really fast if the AI gets a couple of cascades and/or 8 blue. If Fury gets his Demolition off, you can pretty much kiss a character goodbye unless you can kill him fast enough. If you're not willing to risk that gamble, hit the skip button. But as someone who actually does take on teams with prof X in them pretty regularly, with a bit of planning and if you make him your primary target (just like you'd target Hood, Loki, Thoress or any other troublesome character first), Prof X will be dead 9 times out of 10 before he can do any real damage. And that final 1 out of 10 bad luck factor is there against any opposing team.

Let me add one other major point. Prof X's invisibility is the same color as the two best pairings for match-5s -- IF and GSBW. So when you play Prof X, you often have to choose whether to rely on invisibility (a very slow way to win) or use purple for a different task. It is rare to use his blue and purple in the same game. When it happens, it is usually because the character with the other purple power is dead.

More importantly, people usually build him towards one or the other (since his yellow is pretty worthless at 3, so it's an easy 5)

Unknown

aesthetocyst wrote:

orionpeace chose to question one point of a post without bothering to respond to the rest. I answered his question. Not enjoying receiving inconvenient information, he shifted his goalposts. Had I bothered to anticipate and provide the information in the original post, this tangent could have been prevented.

After the above, forgive me for questioning only a portion of your post.

aesthetocyst wrote:

I would prefer the devs offered alternatives, counters to powerful characters. They present problems to solve. Problems to solve, in a puzzle game. Hmmm.

This, sadly, can never happen because of the PvP world we live in. You can't bring a team to solve 1 problem that has a glaring weakness, because you then get immediately devoured for having a defense team with a glaring weakness. Attackers get to see your team before deciding to commit a team of their own, which is a huge advantage. But that advantage is limited in the sense they also have to bring a team that stands up on defense.

It's like if you were playing Rock Paper Scissors and saw what your opponent used before you had to pick, but the guy behind you sees what you use. In this choice you either win the first match handily, and lose the second, or you throw Elemental Nuke which defeats everything. Guess which one gets used?

Until retaliations are taken out of PvP entirely, hard counters to specific OP characters will never work. I mean, look how well Doc Ock was received as a Sentry counter. You can use problem solver characters in PvE, but even there your Elemental Nuke is probably the best option.

Unknown

aesthetocyst wrote:

raisinbman wrote:

orionpeace wrote:

I'm not blaming anyone for anything. I am expressing my concern for how D3 executes tuning characters down - nerfing.

He provided an example. One. The only one. Of when they tuned a character up after a nerf.

And I pointed to how long that took.

No blame. Just observations and concern.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

Your concern is irrelevant.

This thread is about fixing characters. Not how long. Not how often. Not how much or how little. It's a call to nerf.

I mean honestly, the person gave you exactly what you ask for and you derail with a BUT BUT BUT

orionpeace chose to question one point of a post without bothering to respond to the rest. I answered his question. Not enjoying receiving inconvenient information, he shifted his goalposts. Had I bothered to anticipate and provide the information in the original post, this tangent could have been prevented.

This thread, according to the OP, is not about fixing characters in general, it's about an assumption by some players that a specific character needs fixing. Based on past experience with such complaints (Sentry, XF, 4Thor being prominent in my mind), this causes other players to groan: "Here we go again".

Some characters need tweaking because they're really irritating. Cmags, the original rags, spidey are all good examples, all examples of the devs early tendency to provide hilariously cheap powers. These characters needed tweaking, badly, because playing with/against them was mind-numbing.

Sentry, XF, 4Thor, now Prof X, did not suffer from the same defect. Yes, they were powerful. They presented problems to be solved. In a pay-to-win game, some players can acquire these powerful characters over night. Most players, not being big spenders, require months to build them. In the interim, the spenders can lord over their less spendy competition.

Well ... this model offers to paths to progress, time and money.The devs have to walk a fine line between driving away those willing to spend money, and those reluctant to spend.

I would prefer the devs offered alternatives, counters to powerful characters. They present problems to solve. Problems to solve, in a puzzle game. Hmmm.

Nerfs are a shortcut for the devs. An apparent easy out in attempt to appease the playerbase. (Remember the defense offered of the recent adjustments? "We got PMs that thanked us.") Easier to nerf what exists than to make new.

Read my other comments. I have plenty of criticism of the devs. Their desicions/actions in regards to character design and balance, and implementation of those actions/decisions, are atrocious.

In short, I, too, groan, "Here we go again." Leave X alone. If I used to beat Sentry with OBW, I can take down X with [mumblemumble], and I do. Puzzle solved. Next!

I agree, sort of. But basically, what you're talking about is if the devs had the foresight(instead of NERF EVERYONE BECAUSE PROFESSOR X IS COMING OUT!!!!) to balance and make a 'rock paper scissors' element.

If only.

wymtime

Lerysh wrote:

aesthetocyst wrote:

orionpeace chose to question one point of a post without bothering to respond to the rest. I answered his question. Not enjoying receiving inconvenient information, he shifted his goalposts. Had I bothered to anticipate and provide the information in the original post, this tangent could have been prevented.

After the above, forgive me for questioning only a portion of your post.

aesthetocyst wrote:

I would prefer the devs offered alternatives, counters to powerful characters. They present problems to solve. Problems to solve, in a puzzle game. Hmmm.

This, sadly, can never happen because of the PvP world we live in. You can't bring a team to solve 1 problem that has a glaring weakness, because you then get immediately devoured for having a defense team with a glaring weakness. Attackers get to see your team before deciding to commit a team of their own, which is a huge advantage. But that advantage is limited in the sense they also have to bring a team that stands up on defense.

It's like if you were playing Rock Paper Scissors and saw what your opponent used before you had to pick, but the guy behind you sees what you use. In this choice you either win the first match handily, and lose the second, or you throw Elemental Nuke which defeats everything. Guess which one gets used?

Until retaliations are taken out of PvP entirely, hard counters to specific OP characters will never work. I mean, look how well Doc Ock was received as a Sentry counter. You can use problem solver characters in PvE, but even there your Elemental Nuke is probably the best option.

But doc Ocks green would destroy 1 CD tile. Are you saying that was not enough to stop Sentry in his prime?

Unknown

bro, . Plus . No one wants to be remind of Doc Ock's old .

His release at the height of sentry bombing was clearly intended to be a hard Sentry counter, and he just trips on a tentacle and flops on his face instead. Can't use him because he gets pounded by every other available team.

Xenoberyll

I have 8 covers for xavier now and i'd like to spend some of my collected hp to buy more. but i don't think i will make that investment when it's so unreliable. too many people are crying for nerfs simply because they don't have the character imho. I've never read a complaint about OBW or Ares at least.

Unknown

Xenoberyll wrote:

I've never read a complaint about OBW or Ares at least.

Phaserhawk

It's simple, why do you run Prof X?

Why did you run old Spidey, Old Rags, Old C.Mags, why did you Sentry bomb?

What they all have in common, especially in PvE, was it was a way to do the absoutely most with the lowest amount of resources possible.

The game wasn't about--get 5 blue and win with Spidey or C.Mags.

It wasn't get a little green and Red, win with Rags.

It's not get 7 green, 8 yellow and destroy the other team with Sentry

What PX does is the same as those others. Get a certain color with someone quickly and win the game. You don't want him nerfed because he provides you with a cheap and efficient way to win. Well, guess what, that's lame.

I can already see the problems with Prof X and Hulkbuster. Get 9 blue, create red, get match 5 from cascade, Prof X triggers and creates more blue to feed Hulkbuster into another match 5.

It's one of those, IF and KK, and Cyclops, and all the other AP generators really bend the line of balance, but Xavier breaks it. And when the breaker is the one allowed to exist while all the benders are nerfed that's where I have a problem. Benders can always be bent back in line, like they did with Iron Fist, but when you nerf characters into non existance all so a breaker can continue to exist, yeah, I don't like that. I like that pX can create AP on match 5's, I'm just saying you should get it at the start of your next turn, not instantly.

Unknown

Phaserhawk wrote:

It's simple, why do you run Prof X?

Why did you run old Spidey, Old Rags, Old C.Mags, why did you Sentry bomb?

What they all have in common, especially in PvE, was it was a way to do the absoutely most with the lowest amount of resources possible.

The game wasn't about--get 5 blue and win with Spidey or C.Mags.

It wasn't get a little green and Red, win with Rags.

It's not get 7 green, 8 yellow and destroy the other team with Sentry

What PX does is the same as those others. Get a certain color with someone quickly and win the game. You don't want him nerfed because he provides you with a cheap and efficient way to win. Well, guess what, that's lame.

I can already see the problems with Prof X and Hulkbuster. Get 9 blue, create red, get match 5 from cascade, Prof X triggers and creates more blue to feed Hulkbuster into another match 5.

It's one of those, IF and KK, and Cyclops, and all the other AP generators really bend the line of balance, but Xavier breaks it. And when the breaker is the one allowed to exist while all the benders are nerfed that's where I have a problem. Benders can always be bent back in line, like they did with Iron Fist, but when you nerf characters into non existance all so a breaker can continue to exist, yeah, I don't like that. I like that pX can create AP on match 5's, I'm just saying you should get it at the start of your next turn, not instantly.

At this point, Charles is too much of a problem.....his needs to get changed because he breaks almost every new character.

I mean, Iron Fist is problematic, but Professor X is like an unlit stove building gas and waiting for someone to strike a match

Unknown

Phaserhawk wrote:

I can already see the problems with Prof X and Hulkbuster. Get 9 blue, create red, get match 5 from cascade, Prof X triggers and creates more blue to feed Hulkbuster into another match 5.

It's one of those, IF and KK, and Cyclops, and all the other AP generators really bend the line of balance, but Xavier breaks it. And when the breaker is the one allowed to exist while all the benders are nerfed that's where I have a problem. Benders can always be bent back in line, like they did with Iron Fist, but when you nerf characters into non existance all so a breaker can continue to exist, yeah, I don't like that. I like that pX can create AP on match 5's, I'm just saying you should get it at the start of your next turn, not instantly.

I can get behind this reasoning. PX's is quite strong. If it added a 1 turn CD for the AP it would weaken but not destroy it. My concern, and the concern of many others here it seems, is their track record for "balance adjustment" tends to leave characters crippled rather than balanced.

Unknown

Um, not every ability that creates a match 5 is overpowered even if they're on the color that Master Plan generates AP for, and not every overpowered ability is abusable. You need 14 blue to do IMHB blue twice even with 4 blue from Master Plan and adding 7 tiles is far from a guaranteed match 5. Take QS + Prof X, once the purple dries up, using 7-11 black AP to get 4 black AP back on a red match 5 isn't exactly doing anything broken. That combo is broken because as long as you've some purple you can replenish an incredible amount of black tiles which allows you to make a black match 5 for 9 total black AP (with Master Plan on black) and usually the cascades created by Iron Fist is enough to keep the purple replenished, but that is only possible with Iron Fist and only as long as you've a supply of purple AP to put the black tiles there. Master Plan does a lot of damage because he has no actives that do damage so it's supposed to replace the equivalent of another character's active, and as long as you can't generate match 5s for cheap and repeatedly that's perfectly fine. It's a huge problem when you've cheap match 5s but being able to generate cheap match 5s is almost always broken to begin with.

If we have the pre nerf Magneto by himself, who is a match 5 machine, he'd be able to kill pretty much anyone very slowly. Now if you can pair him up with Professor X he'd be killing everyone very fast, but it doesn't really enable him to do anything that he can't do already because he can pretty much infinite by himself. It sure saves you a lot of time and that has value too, but in terms of overall balance, a character who can already infinite is not meaningfully more powerful just because the infinite is now faster. It seems to me if there's this guy whose ability is: "0 AP: Creates a random match 5 on the board, drains all your AP to 0", people would say he's broken with Professor X, never mind this guy can win any game by just hitting the button enough times. Yes, he'd win much quicker with Professor X, but in terms of capability he's already capable of winning any game by himself.

Unknown

That's all well and good, but it's the simple fact that PX does his damage (fine, he needs a damage ability) AND generates 4 free AP that is hurting the overall game. It is a very good ability, and has crazy AP gain ratios because, ya know, free. After seeing the war they have declared on AP generation, I'm surprised this guy is still allowed to exist really.

Delaying the AP gained by a turn would help bring balance to the character. Delaying the onset, so opening board match 5's don't work, would also help (by requiring 5 blue to activate, or only generate AP while invisible, or something). AP gain on it's face isn't broken, but almost all spiraling out of control combos rely on getting back more AP than you are putting out, so adding 4 bonus AP to a power that creates match 5's pushes the concept of "balanced" pretty far.

Unknown

I dont quite agree that PX + HB is the best example of the returning power of PX AP generation. While Hulkbuster blue doesnt instantly generates enough AP back to do it again when a match-5 happens with PX together, it leaves it in a shorter range to be cast again. It shortens by a bit more than 50% of the cast cost, BUT it is balanced because after one cast the board will be starving green.

The one other power that I see that is more or less balanced is Doom's blue as it targets the same color he uses, so the board will not be flooded with blue tiles by the time he uses it.

Real problem is with tile generators that have a wide spread of options, like MQ and IF whose have (on avarage) half of the board or the entire board as target, respectively, and KK that you can just see which is the best option at every moment.

Gagutz

I have my Prof. X at 5/3/5. Level 250

Who are the best characters to use with him in PVP??

I have been using him with Iron Fis,t Kamala, or sometimes Dino.

Looking for suggestions...

Thank you

dkffiv

Doctor Doom, Scarlet Witch, Fist and Cyclops all have the best chances to generate random 5 matches. Enjoy him before he gets nerfed to oblivion.

Gagutz

Thank you!

Also debating between making him 4/5/4 to fill up the board with tiles and really power them with Prof X matches...

Torn...

djvkool

Wow, lucky you, how did you manage to level him up and maxed level so quick?

simonsez

djvkool wrote:

Wow, lucky you, how did you manage to level him up and maxed level so quick?

I'm going to guess the answer is, by ignoring history and spending money...