**** Professor X (Charles Xavier) ****

Hayek

I have a 5/4/4 lvl166 , 3/5/5 lvl166 , and 3/5/5 that was buffed to 166 during the ultron event.

I can tell you first hand that that combo can't be counted on to be infinite. At these levels, master plan generates half of the time, and half of the time. So at an average of 2 ap gain per crit. If you don't have locked tiles on the board, costs 11, and a minimum of 7 if you have 4 locked tiles. Those of you who remember the PvE, how hard did you try to match enough blue to get his passive to go off, and how often were you actually successful? So to be generous, let's assume on your way to matching and the computer matches 3 and none of the locked tiles get destroyed. costs 8 ap per cast, on average you get 2 ap back. You have to be coming up with 6 from other sources to be able to keep casting. Unless your 5 match was or , your combos are going to stop.

So this new infinite combo boils down to 4.5k damage per 6 ap you managed to stockpile. How does that compare to ? This character does comparable damage. Instead of generating AP from the 5 matches (half of which you can't use because your team lacks actives in 3 colors) you get a stun. Weren't we complaining that the nerfed XF , being a character, should have abilities that are 60% stronger than comparable ? Don't get me wrong, when this combo works, it's beautiful. And the board control QS offers with his black is great. But this is far from what XF used to be.

About your proposed changes - generates 4 countdown tiles that each give 1 ap. How would that look with a team? Get to 10 - win.

Unknown

Phaserhawk wrote:

djsquillz wrote:

simonsez wrote:

Cryptobrancus wrote:

I would rather see them make a subtle adjustment now than be forced to do what they did to 4thor down the line.

But they weren't forced to do a bad nerf. That's just what they do, consistently. That's why I'd prefer people not goad them into doing it.

i could not agree more. I feel like we are consistently "telling on ourselves" to D3 on these boards. We have a much more in depth working knowledge of synergies than they do simply because of how much we play this game. Most likely, the Devs would eventually get around to making OP characters completely useless, but i feel like with all of the "Nerf this person" "Nerf that Person"...we are accelerating this process greatly.

They get valuable information quickly and we get a nerfed into oblivion character that we spent time and in some cases money leveling. Let's stop doing their work for them.

marc

I think you are overestimating our importance and underestimating their play testing and balance. However, because I have a decent roster, I get grouped with the big guns, and when they are running combos in PvE that push the scaling quicker than I like it's frustrating. When Spidey got nerfed there was a huge decrease in scaling, when C.Mags got nerfed there was another one. So stopping characters from doing degenerative combos is better for the game long term.

Phaser...i do understand what you are saying about PVe scaling. I also have an elite roster and suffer through the same thing. So from that perspective, i get where you are coming from.

I don't think that i'm overestimating our importance. I know in the end, the devs don't give a damn about us. I just have an issue when we on the boards are constantly calling attention to things that IMO the Devs aren't yet hip to. I'd rather let them arrive at their own conclusions...and IMO they would do so much more slowly without our insight.

I also don't think they play test things sufficiently. We have had too many characters released and then quickly nerfed for me to think that they do adequate testing. How many times has a member of this board quickly spotted a problem with a new character's stats? IMO it happens too often for them to be really doing in depth testing.

marc

Colognoisseur

You guys in the nerf squad have stamina I'll give you that.

You just change the name on your signs and start calling for nerfs as soon as your last target goes down.

Here is the very very funny thing. This whole set of changes to older characters and introduction of the new characters has caused a primordial ooze of degenerate combos.
During Ultron I was having so much fun rotating between them and thinking If they call for a nerf to Professor X I'll just use this.
If they propose a nerf to Iron Fist I'll use this. If they propose a nerf to quicksilver I'll use this. If they propose a nerf to all three I'll just use these three.

If you think degenerate combos destroy the game there are no less than five different degenerate combos in play right this minute. Combos that beat the other team within 3-5 turns. Plus I don't think I've found them all. Plus Hulkbuster hasn't arrived and I'm pretty sure it enables another one.

That's because with so many new characters and changes to existing characters it was impossible for the playtesting team to catch all of them.

Good luck to you and the rest of the nerf herders the devs have opened Pandora's Box and I don't think they can close it easily.

reckless442

I also don't get the obsession with nerfs. Prof X is a great character for offense when his combo gets going, but remember that the AI doesn't prioritize match-5s, so you are not likely to get wiped out by Prof X's blue when facing the AI. And if he player is good in placing tiles using Quicksilver's black, more power to them. That takes time to do in matches, so it's not like having Prof X in combo is going to lead to fast snipes.

So what is the complaint?

GrumpySmurf1002

Hayek wrote:

I have a 5/4/4 lvl166 , 3/5/5 lvl166 , and 3/5/5 that was buffed to 166 during the ultron event.

I can tell you first hand that that combo can't be counted on to be infinite. At these levels, master plan generates half of the time, and half of the time. So at an average of 2 ap gain per crit.

All it would take is leveling Quicksilver up to 167-168 boosted, and suddenly you're generating nothing but black, and the combo succeeds much more easily.

Colognoisseur

reckless442 wrote:

I also don't get the obsession with nerfs. Prof X is a great character for offense when his combo gets going, but remember that the AI doesn't prioritize match-5s, so you are not likely to get wiped out by Prof X's blue when facing the AI. And if he player is good in placing tiles using Quicksilver's black, more power to them. That takes time to do in matches, so it's not like having Prof X in combo is going to lead to fast snipes.

So what is the complaint?

This is also a very good point. Just because I can kill the other team within 3-5 turns the AI will not fire powers off in the right order. For Prof X it won't make an L or T Match -5 is a good example.

Unknown

Colognoisseur wrote:

If you think degenerate combos destroy the game there are no less than five different degenerate combos in play right this minute. Combos that beat the other team within 3-5 turns. Plus I don't think I've found them all. Plus Hulkbuster hasn't arrived and I'm pretty sure it enables another one.
.

Best part of the whole post Colog...you didn't give specifics about what characters are part of each broken combo.

Thanks. marc

GrumpySmurf1002

Colognoisseur wrote:

reckless442 wrote:

I also don't get the obsession with nerfs. Prof X is a great character for offense when his combo gets going, but remember that the AI doesn't prioritize match-5s, so you are not likely to get wiped out by Prof X's blue when facing the AI. And if he player is good in placing tiles using Quicksilver's black, more power to them. That takes time to do in matches, so it's not like having Prof X in combo is going to lead to fast snipes.

So what is the complaint?

This is also a very good point. Just because I can kill the other team within 3-5 turns the AI will not fire powers off in the right order. For Prof X it won't make an L or T Match -5 is a good example.

AI couldn't use Sentry properly either. That worked out well for him.

Anyway, a couple people using a combination is not going to lead to a nerf. If everyone and their uncle starts using it? Then watch out.

In fact, you're probably helping by rotating the combo you use, and also by not revealing them all.

Unknown

This honestly wouldn't be such a hot button issue if Demiurge knew how to nerf properly. The suggestions Phaserhawk is proposing are hardly nerfs, but reworkings. However, analytical discussion is lost because of fear from previous changes.

Phaserhawk wrote:

Here's my newest version and I think this pretty much gives him all the power without the infinite combos that is going to get everyone else nerfed until they change him.

Master Plan - Passive
(PASSIVE) In rigorous training sessions, Professor X teaches his allies to recognize tactical openings. Whenever Professor X's team makes a Match-5 or greater, create a 1 turn Blue Countdown tile that activates every turn, creating 1 AP in teams strongest color (multiple tiles = multiple AP) and deals an additional 941 damage.
Level Upgrades
Level 2: Deals an additonal 1317 damage and CD tile is 2 turns.
Level 3: Deals an additonal 1430 damage and creates 2 tiles.
Level 4: Deals an additonal 2070 damage and CD tile is 3 turns
Level 5: Deals an additonal 2221 damage and creates four, 4 turn CD tiles.
Max Level
Level 3 - Deals an additonal 2839 damage and creates two, 2 turn tiles that creates 1 AP in teams strongest color.
Level 4 - Deals an additonal 4110 damage and creates two, 3 turn tiles that creates 1 AP in teams strongest color.
Level 5 - Deals an additonal 4408 damage and creates four, 4 turn tiles that creates 1 AP in teams strongest color.

This I like. It stops an infiinte combo, it also gives you more AP over time than the skill in current form. I think this would keep him strong and stop other characters from getting nerfed due to the blue in current form.

With the latest suggestion, the jump from 6 AP - 16AP at max power (eg goons) seems like a little too much for a single crit, plus the cascades caused by single resolution at a time. On one hand, you need to remove the tile after resolution so that you limit the power of it per turn, but this also further enables crits. If you managed to get 3 crits in a row, that's 12 AP coming per turn for 4 turns, as opposed to the 12 AP that you get outright from the skill now. Even if you have an AI that can move the board, it's hard to clear more than 2 of them per turn unless you're the juggernaut. Focusing purely on the countdown aspect, my counter proposal would be:
Level 1: 1 - 1 turn counter - generate 1 AP each turn (max 1)
Level 2: 1 - 2 turn counters - generate 1 AP each turn (max 2)
Level 3: 2 - 2 turn counters - generate 1 AP each turn (max 4)
Level 4: 2 - 3 turn counters - generate 1 AP each turn (max 6)
Level 5: 3 - 3 turn counters - generate 1 AP each turn (max 9)
First 4 levels are unchanged. but level 5 ups the generation rate to 3 a turn. Keep in mind this is still a passive.


Maybe Professor X will get away because he's already in a wheelchair. You wouldn't cripple someone already in a wheelchair would you?

Hayek

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

Hayek wrote:

I have a 5/4/4 lvl166 , 3/5/5 lvl166 , and 3/5/5 that was buffed to 166 during the ultron event.

I can tell you first hand that that combo can't be counted on to be infinite. At these levels, master plan generates half of the time, and half of the time. So at an average of 2 ap gain per crit.

All it would take is leveling Quicksilver up to 167-168 boosted, and suddenly you're generating nothing but black, and the combo succeeds much more easily.

Eventually I did do this, but then you would be conceding that this combo is only good when is featured. On the generous scenario I outlined, you'd still have to be coming up with 4 black from somewhere to keep the combo going. Not to mention the fact that there aren't always match 5s available, especially with locked tiles and special tiles in play.

simonsez

Cryptobrancus wrote:

You are asking them to never make adjustments on anyone for any reason

You must be confusing my words with other words that have completely different meanings.

Unknown

This game isn't that balanced but it's also not that broken, not to mention it's impossible to hide this stuff in PvP since you must be able to see the team that defeated you so it doesn't matter how complicated the degenerate combo, if you keep on see the same 3 guys that nobody else uses it'd be obvious there must be some trick there.

Right now the most broken stuff is started by Iron Fist but even with 4 purple AP you usually need 2 IFoKL to set off anything degenerate and there won't always be 2 purple matches in the first 5 turns period. Sure sometimes a single IFoKL ends the game but that's not easily reproducible. Hulk + Patch also needs 2 green matches to set off a Berserker Rage and again you won't always have 2 green matches in the first 5 turns (and it takes a few turns for this to work). After that you need a varying degree of luck to win by turn 5 that's all considerably harder than finding 2 green/purple matches in 5 turns.

Since creating a lot of match 5 tends to be the centerpiece of any degenerate combo of course you'd see Master Plan show up there too, but making a lot of match 5s tend to be degenerate already. For example I tried the QS + Prof X + Iron Fist and used Idle Hands about 15 times over about 10 turns and that sounds pretty broken, but 99% of the time it'd be quicker to just do 2 IFoKL into 2 Rage of the Panthers with or without Professor X. It happens to be better for this event since Ultron Sentries come in waves so it's better to have a lot of small hits than a couple of big hits because you end up just overkilling a wave. I saw the video for Scarlet Witch and a passive that creates a match 5 every 5 or so turns is not balanced either. Having Prof X makes it even more broken but it was more than enough to be broken by itself.

simonsez

Phantron wrote:

it'd be quicker to just do 2 IFoKL into 2 Rage of the Panthers

You don't get 24 black off two casts of Fist purple. This is why it's hard to take you guys seriously when you scream "OP!!" and demand nerfs.

Unknown

simonsez wrote:

Cryptobrancus wrote:

You are asking them to never make adjustments on anyone for any reason

You must be confusing my words with other words that have completely different meanings.

OP suggested a change, not a nerf. Everyone else in the thread piled on using the N-word. You said they never nerf correctly and shouldn't be encouraged to do so. So you are against nerfs, that is fine, but the thread isn't about nerfs its about avoiding potentially broken combos that WILL FORCE TO DEVS TO EVENTUALLY NERF SOMEONE as they have done in the past. As you state they have a history of going too far when it becomes nerf time, so threads like this are trying to fix potential brokenness before it becomes widely abused, because when something becomes widely abused the devs will notice and take action against it. And then we have players that are trying to find brand new ways to game the system but are now trying to hide it so their secret combos will avoid detection and they now have an edge versus all other normal players.

So you are against nerfs that much is clear, and by your tone you are against minor changes that might prevent future heavy handed nerfs as well. I can only conclude that you want no changes at all, and you called me out but did not try to elaborate what you meant or explain why I was wrong.

thedarkphoenix

Surprise surprise, something was nerfed and something else came long that people feel now needs a nerf.


Unless its extremely Op DONT NERF ANYTHING. Charles is strong but he doesn't need to be nerfed.

simonsez

Cryptobrancus wrote:

by your tone you are against minor changes that might prevent future heavy handed nerfs as well.

Let me clarify. I would be 100% in favor of minor changes that would prevent future heavy-handed nerfs. What I am against are campaigns championing these minor changes, because in the past they've invariably led to heavy-handed nerfs instead.

Unknown

simonsez wrote:

Cryptobrancus wrote:

by your tone you are against minor changes that might prevent future heavy handed nerfs as well.

Let me clarify. I would be 100% in favor of minor changes that would prevent future heavy-handed nerfs. What I am against are campaigns championing these minor changes, because in the past they've invariably led to heavy-handed nerfs instead.

Agreed. The Devs don't adjust, tweak, or fix. They destroy, neuter, and ruin.

marc

Unknown

simonsez wrote:

Cryptobrancus wrote:

by your tone you are against minor changes that might prevent future heavy handed nerfs as well.

Let me clarify. I would be 100% in favor of minor changes that would prevent future heavy-handed nerfs. What I am against are campaigns championing these minor changes, because in the past they've invariably led to heavy-handed nerfs instead.

Causation and correlation. People have been asking for minor tweaks to IM40 forever. Same with every character that comes out really but almost all of those discussions lead to exactly nothing. The ones that were nerfed were not because someone asked for them to be. The devs are really good at ignoring the entire forum, they were nerfed because they felt they needed to for some dev-conceived reason.
We discuss, we strategize we say that has potential but isn't strong enough to compete against this other thing. Discussing powers and making suggestions is just the forum talking shop. Its discussion for discussion sake. Are you really asking people to stop all that because it ~might~ lead to a nerf when exactly no one is suggesting that is a good idea?

orionpeace

aesthetocyst wrote:

And have (belatedly) made right a few past over-corrections.

I am not aware of an instance where they severely nerfed a character and then increased the power to bring said character up to or above par.

Can you give an example of this behavior?

Unknown

I really, REALLY dont want to see MPQ turning into a tinykitty DotA 2, where you have to fight broken characters and combos with even more broken and cheesy strategies. No, please. Nerfs are needed to balance every game with a PvP feature, simple.

Im NOT saying that we need to DELETE a character in order to balace it tho, like did with XF green. The idea of a 2-turn CD that generates the 4AP, just the exact same amount of AP we have now its perfect, gives some kind of opening to a counterplay.

Anything that does not has counterplay possibilities become frustrating and only hurt one side while the other does NOT gains the same amount of enjoyment. ITS A TINIKITTY MACHINE. Yes, the player winning on defense will like the free points, but it could be less, way less, frustrating if the lose was because the player couldnt deny enough AP so it took a SS to the face, or accidentaly cascaded into a match-4 and enemy Loki took important AP from it. This is ok, but not "ZOMG LETS CASCADE THIS PLAYER TO THE DEATH AND DEAL 13K ON THREE CRITICALS AND USE ALL THIS BLUE AP TO STUN THE ENEMY ALIVE WITH THORESS' kind of thing. Yeah you took 3 criticals and lost a character, but then the AI being rewarded even more with instant AP is just wrong; as I said before theres no counterplay to be done as we cant control the cascades.

KEEP NERFING, BUT NOT TOO MUCH.