*** Daredevil (Man Without Fear) ***

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  • Having DDs traps being overwritten by strike tiles, protect tiles etc is an awful idea. If the opposing team has Daken or 2* Wolverine then DD is useless.
    I vote for it to be changed. If the opposing player is paying attention they could figure out where the trap tiles are by spamming strike tiles. But having Dakens/Wolvs strike tiles overwrite an ambush trap make an interesting 3* character unplayable.
  • Phaserhawk
    Phaserhawk Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    Viorala wrote:
    I dunno, your improvements are interesting because it would be nice if red wasn't used, but I don't see that as a fix so much as a sidegrade. The overwriting thing absolutely needs to be fixed, because the random possibility of the trap hitting a mark is a risky gameplay we know about going in, and some of us like the element of surprise. But to have most characters be able to overwrite the traps, well then, that's not just risk, that's heading into liability land. And since traps are all he does, that makes the character an impotent lamebutt, even though he's actually got a crotch unlike Ken doll Magneto.

    Which is why I am asking for the minimalist approach first. I mean in all likelyhood if he's gonna get buffed, because of the issues it could take forever, but....a simple programming adjustment to have abilty x go to y instead of z is easy enough. Does it fix all his issues? No way, but...it does make him slightly more viable and could be a niche support character. For those of you that didn't go to the link.

    So here's Mr. Murdock currently

    Daredevil (Classic)
    3 Star Rarity (Rare) Discussion link
    At Max Level: HP: 5800 Tile damage: 10/52/60/67/11/12


    Radar Sense - Purple 11 AP
    Daredevil's heightened senses let him strike first, terrifying the enemy. Creates an Environment Trap tile that, when matched by an enemy, steals 2 AP from all colors. If you match the tile, it steals 1 Purple AP and changes locations. Enemies cannot see the tile.
    Level Upgrades

    Level 2: Steals 3 AP on enemy match.
    Level 3: Steals 4 AP on enemy match.
    Level 4: Steals 5 AP on enemy match.
    Level 5: Steals 6 AP on enemy match.


    Equalizer - Blue 7 AP
    Billy Club in hand, Daredevil prowls the battlefield, waiting to even the odds. Create a Blue trap tile that, when matched by an enemy, stuns for 2 turns. if you match the tile, it generates 1 Blue AP and changes locations. Enemies cannot see the tile.
    Level Upgrades

    Level 2: Stuns for 3 turns.
    Level 3: Stuns for 4 turns.
    Level 4: Stuns for 5 turns.
    Level 5: Stuns for 6 turns.


    Ambush - Red 7 AP
    Daredevil lurks in the shadow, ready to strike. Creates a Red Trap tile that, when matched by the enemy, deals 473 damage. If you match the tile, the enemy takes 24 damage and it changes locations. Enemies cannot see the tile.
    Level Upgrades

    Level 2: 662 damage on enemy match.
    Level 3: 851 damage on enemy match.
    Level 4: 1041 damage on enemy match.
    Level 5: 1230 damage on enemy match.
    Max Level: Enemy takes 7712 damage on enemy match / Enemy takes 148 damage on player match



    So what if all Devs did was tweak 3 things.

    Radar Sense - Purple 11 AP
    Daredevil's heightened senses let him strike first, terrifying the enemy. Creates a Yellow Trap tile that, when matched by an enemy, steals 2 AP from all colors. If you match the tile, it steals 1 Purple AP and changes locations. Enemies cannot see the tile.

    Equalizer - Blue 7 AP
    Billy Club in hand, Daredevil prowls the battlefield, waiting to even the odds. Create a Green trap tile that, when matched by an enemy, stuns for 2 turns. if you match the tile, it generates 1 Blue AP and changes locations. Enemies cannot see the tile

    Ambush - Red 7 AP
    Daredevil lurks in the shadow, ready to strike. Creates a Black Trap tile that, when matched by the enemy, deals 473 damage. If you match the tile, the enemy takes 24 damage and it changes locations. Enemies cannot see the tile.

    What this does is make DD unique, he can touch all colors essentially making him a rainbow character and since he can't see color this would be cool as well. It allows the player to make him a more active character, you match red to trap black, then you can activate black to do damage or do you gather more red? Same with Purple, I can send it to yellow and steal AP by matching yellow, or do I match purple to create more traps. This would require the programers to literally do nothing aside from change 3 spots in the programming. Making DD unique and solving problems, ie. matching tiles to create traps, but reducing the spots needed. Also making his red go to black fixes the strike tile issue except in Latveria icon_e_smile.gif And possible Psylocke but I can live with that.


    If they aren't going to change his cover colors, if they aren't going to fix the strike tile trap overwrite, then moving his red skill to go on black tiles would fix this issue. And allowing you to bounce around matching multiple colors I think would be super cool and it would make him pair well with alot of teammates
  • Dayv
    Dayv Posts: 4,449 Chairperson of the Boards
    Just wait, eventually there will be a Daredevil PvP again and you'll be the only boosted level 212 Daredevil in your bracket.
  • I really want to like DD. I really do. He's my favorite Marvel character, and he can deal out some major damage. I've been trying to use him with Spidey and Punisher in the Shield tourney but the more I use him the more apparent it is that his trap tile mechanic is broken and unreliable. Maybe, MAYBE 1/8 times I'll actually get one triggered. But most of the time I'm just throwing away AP. And it takes so long to trigger a trap that half the time I get a red triggered it's usually on an enemy who's already near death making that 5k+ damage a bigger waste than the 7ap it cost. Let's think about all the ways his traps can be disarmed.

    Daken strike tiles,
    Wolverine strike tiles
    Patch Strike tiles
    Psylocke Strike tiles
    M. Storm Hailstorm
    C/M. Storm Lightning strike
    Hulk Thunder Clap
    Juggernaut crash
    Ragnarok Godlike
    IM 40 Ballistic
    Hood Twin Pistols
    Magneto's Magnetize
    GSBW Pistol
    and the list goes on. I'm having a hard time thinking of someone who CAN'T easily and unintentionally disarm his trap tiles. Hell, I think even classic Hawkeye can wipe out his tiles with the arrow stab. (not sure if that triggers or disarms though)

    I really hope we see a fix for him in the near future. I'd rather he did half the damage/steal/stun if his traps would just be relocated when any one of the things above happen.
  • The one thing I've had some success with him with in a predictable, targetable way is using his blue traps against CMags. Whenever I've taken him into a match against CMags - which isn't often, but I've done it occasionally - Mags has set off the blue trap, usually by using his blue power.

    Otherwise, I've had his traps go off, but it's kind of random. It's devastating when they go off, but too unpredictable.
  • Exactly, I'd rather have a power that did 1500 damage 7/8 times, than a power that did 10K damage 1/8 times.
  • Hissori
    Hissori Posts: 16 Just Dropped In
    Well, I have to say, I have a maxed DD and honestly he's my most fun/challenging character to play. When I want to work for a win, I use him. He is absolutely the most rewarding win character I have, and have quite a few maxed characters. When I'm tired of the same ol same ol to win, I pull him out. Yes, I agree, strike tiles should not cancel his traps, nor should exploding tiles. this should most likely just relocate the traps. Right now only way to trigger a trap is with a match. That's fine, but relocate the trap on an exploded tile. When I see a DD I'm going up against, I just use hulk and **mag. blows up so many tiles and disarms everything. Way too easy to circumvent the traps with a character that can explode so many tiles, especially when hulk just needs green tiles. Never even have to match red technically. And, if you have **mags blue maxed it destroys the whole board disarming ALL traps...kinda lame.

    Just my 2c.
  • When he works HE WORKS! But it's few and far between. I think if we just got indefinite relocates he'd be OP which is why I'd recommend just reducing the total damage. But you're totally right, you could drop 5 traps and then **Mags can disarm them all with one move.
  • Maybe a good compromise would be when a trap is overwritten, it is recreated but with half the effect.
  • ToryTory
    ToryTory Posts: 77 Match Maker
    Hissori wrote:
    Well, I have to say, I have a maxed DD and honestly he's my most fun/challenging character to play. When I want to work for a win, I use him. He is absolutely the most rewarding win character I have, and have quite a few maxed characters. When I'm tired of the same ol same ol to win, I pull him out. Yes, I agree, strike tiles should not cancel his traps, nor should exploding tiles. this should most likely just relocate the traps. Right now only way to trigger a trap is with a match. That's fine, but relocate the trap on an exploded tile. When I see a DD I'm going up against, I just use hulk and **mag. blows up so many tiles and disarms everything. Way too easy to circumvent the traps with a character that can explode so many tiles, especially when hulk just needs green tiles. Never even have to match red technically. And, if you have **mags blue maxed it destroys the whole board disarming ALL traps...kinda lame.

    Just my 2c.

    This is why nobody uses him. There are too many people who generate strike tiles, can blow up tiles , or just ignore the trap used until he's dead to make him effective. It doesn't matter if his red can 1 shot all but HUlk and Fathor. Red isn't really a go to color. Green and purple and blue usually are. The only time DD is good is if you're playing drunk or not paying attention and get crotch shotted. The easiest change I suggested was to change how traps work. They should not be part of the tile. Rather, like they should change it like web tiles. It's not enough to make DD viable, but at least it's a start

    Web tiles and force bubbles surround a tile but doesn't change what it is. You can have a strike tile surround by a bubble or web. This fixes the strike tile " counter ". Red is too much of a hit or miss. It's good but 99% of the time it's dead. When you do match it, it does so marginal damage you barely feel it. OBW Espionage hits like a truck and synergizes well with strike tile, and hits like 3 colors usually until you get 3* to cover her. Red should reflect that. Either hit harder, by like 1k when matched or make it work with other tiles. DD is a martial artist, so it adds to flavor too.

    Blue, nothing really needs to be changed outside of how traps work. It's a decent skill and stuns like a truck. Reminds me of Modern Widow. Could use a tweak to up his power. I'd change his completely. It's kind of boring.

    Purple : I hate this ability. Another trap? Really? Like they didn't test this thoroughly or traps even. DD plays worse than a pile of hot ****. Purple. The color of Ap denial. Ok. So it drains ap. On environment? I mean , the Ai loves them sure. But how often are you going to use the what 10 ap to set it on a tile that barely anyone matches. At least BlackPanthers strike tile is an immediate effect. I like the avoid from Modern Hawkeye. However, I'd change it thus :

    Radar sense : Passively, DD dodges X % of damage. Leveling up increases base %. Active Y AP: counter attacks with damage dodged multiplied by 2 for one turn. So, DD is renowned for being a tough fighter. Radar sense and determination allows him to counter attack swiftly. Let's keep the math simple and set damage to 100 and X to 10%. Passively DD takes 90 damage. If you activate his purple, he dodges 10 damage and hits back for 20. Obviously you want to save the activate for a finishing move, or an aoe attack. This way he's more in line with his actual character or a tricky tank or off tank. If you hit him with 5k, he dodges 500 damage and he returns 1k. Numbers aside, this is so much better than, hey another trap and let's call it a day.

    D3 developers need to work a little harder at convincing their bosses they are actually working.

    Auto correct on iPad too stronk.
  • ?? The AI always goes after environmental tiles. DD's pink is the only trap I'm actually sure will go off at least once during a match. And a drain of AP is pretty useful imo. It's saved me against LazyThor more than once. I've gotten to the point of trying to get a pink trap out before a red one even.

    It doesn't matter if the AI's team can use red or not, if it's part of a character's skillset they will try to match it. Hulk does all the time. Unfortunately, after he goes after all the green. This still works imo, because I and pretty much all the players are going after green too. It's just that the traps get disarmed and overwritten before the match can occur. This is all that needs to be fixed for now but boy, does it ever need to be fixed. I'd also give him more health; the avoid ability would fit thematically but more health would accomplish similar without having to rework his powers. Which isn't going to happen anyway.

    Daredevil is pretty fun to play but yes, he's not going to appeal to everyone because of his style. But that's ok too. He does not have to become a flavor of the month to be playable, he just can't suck as much as he does against Daken and the rest.

    And while I'm against backseat devving, I just have to say, Dear Devs: what were you thinking when you rolled out a character that Daken renders basically impotent within a couple moves (just a couple moves and that's it!) when you knew you were going to come out with a 3 star Daken? Come on.
  • Hissori
    Hissori Posts: 16 Just Dropped In
    Hmm. I like the "bubble" idea tor. that seems like a decent start.
  • ToryTory wrote:
    This is why nobody uses him. There are too many people who generate strike tiles, can blow up tiles , or just ignore the trap used until he's dead to make him effective. It doesn't matter if his red can 1 shot all but HUlk and Fathor. Red isn't really a go to color. Green and purple and blue usually are.

    It's really interesting how much worse his colors make him. Everybody and their brother puts strike tiles on red to overwrite him. Imagine how much better he'd be if he put tiles on purple (countering OBW and cMags), blue (OBW, cMags, Spidey, cStorm/mnMags teams) and green (Thors, Dakens, Punisher, hulks, oasis)
  • hurcules
    hurcules Posts: 519
    gamar wrote:
    ToryTory wrote:
    This is why nobody uses him. There are too many people who generate strike tiles, can blow up tiles , or just ignore the trap used until he's dead to make him effective. It doesn't matter if his red can 1 shot all but HUlk and Fathor. Red isn't really a go to color. Green and purple and blue usually are.

    It's really interesting how much worse his colors make him. Everybody and their brother puts strike tiles on red to overwrite him. Imagine how much better he'd be if he put tiles on purple (countering OBW and cMags), blue (OBW, cMags, Spidey, cStorm/mnMags teams) and green (Thors, Dakens, Punisher, hulks, oasis)
    Yup. That's what I suggested a few pages back. Make the red trap appear in any basic tile instead of confined to red basic tile only, and he would be a lot more playable.
  • ErikPeter
    ErikPeter Posts: 718 Critical Contributor
    I also am having trouble with Daredevil. He's my first 3* I've gotten to 13 covers, but isn't as useful as my lower level ones. He's sitting at 130 now since the next 12 levels don't seem worth the ISO and is very fragile and ineffective compared to level 105 Punisher, Level 102 Patch, even 85 OBW, who is a much more useful purple/blue than he is.

    I can get behind the idea of his powers. It IS very fun and exciting to get lucky and one-shot Thor or whoever with Ambush. People are wary to play against you because of his traps. But the reality is that using DD instead of OBW means a ton more heal packs. So many battles end with a handful of un-sprung traps on the board. Using him with Punisher or other characters with board destruction means it's likely you'll disarm your own traps, wasting AP and getting wrecked. And then there's Daken...

    Radar Sense is probably his best power, but is really expensive; At the highest level, 6 AP in each color is better than OBW's 4 for the same cost, but hers can be used immediately, or whenever it is most effective. Radar Sense is basically "Spend 11 AP. There is a 50% chance that you will steal 6 AP/color from your opponent, some time within the next 10 turns". I see two ways to tweak this. Either make matching the tile yourself steal 1 AP of each color (which would be cool, and suggest/enforce an environment AP strategy, Black Panther, jungle, etc), or change up the price/effect: e.g. 3 purple for a trap that steals 2 AP/color, or the same cost for 3 traps that steal 3 AP each, etc.

    Equalizer is good, but once again its all-or-nothing effect can be very frustrating. I end a lot of battles with at least two blue traps on the board. If it generated a little more AP per match you could get more traps going faster and they'd be more likely to land; or it could do a bit of damage, or steal AP to prevent OBW from healing before you take her down. Or it could make multiple traps which stun the enemy team for 1 turn. That would have the bonus effect of giving the player time to set up forced, trapped 4-matches to exploit the A.I.

    Ambush is .. occasionally awesome. But I think of it as "Spend 21 Red AP. There is a 30% chance you will insta-kill one of your enemies this match." Unlike any other red ability (e.g. The Best There Is), which is generally "Spend 10-15 AP. Basically insta-kill one of your enemies, right now." It has to make red traps, because part of the effect is AP denial and if the traps were any color DD would be a terribly broken AI opponent. I think it would be a much better power if it created 3-4 traps which did 1/2-1/3 as much damage. It wouldn't be as much of a decider but it would be more likely that one or two of them would go off before being disarmed.

    Get the common theme in my suggestions? More traps with moderately smaller effects might be something to consider.
  • ErikPeter
    ErikPeter Posts: 718 Critical Contributor
    I have been thinking on this more and I think the "problem" with DD is more about tier balance than anything. Let me explain.

    One of the hidden draws to MPQ is that there are different 'tiers' of play. For example there's the early days, where the Prologue is still challenging, and then the road to 50 with IM35/Storm, and then the adolescent time where you're collecting uncommons and level 85s are really scary, which plateaus at a "everyone is 85" stage where half the teams you fight are Thor/Wolvie/OBW, and so on, at higher and higher levels until everyone has maxed 3 stars.

    My roster is in the hazy post-85 period, but not yet to the top tier (I am wary of fighting heroes above 120). My average number of covers for 3-star characters is about 7. Except for DD, my highest are Punisher 105 and Patch 102. So I have played against the occasional 141 Hulk and had a fun time getting smashed to death; Getting a character that powerful is a compelling goal, and it was disappointing to max Daredevil, but not improve (in tier) at all.

    And so, over the past few days (as the Season 1 event winds down) I have been in the unique situation of getting my **** handed to me by a lot of roughly 90th-level teams, and I have gotten the feel for the power level of many different characters. Including my own--with a premium on Health Packs, I've had to switch up my roster, so I've been using 85 Grey Suit Widow, 85 IM40 as well as uncommons. 85 Thor is dangerous, but manageable. 85 Black Panther basically wiped my team with a couple lucky matches. 100 Gold Thor is untiny-kittydiculous.

    Top tier battles are different. Heavy hitters have devastating powers that must be carefully considered, making AP denial key. I won't bother trying any 100+ Gold Thor or Cap for a while. They, along with Black Panther (simply for how cheap and insane his Rage is) are clearly top tier characters, and mine are not. And therein lies the difference with DD.

    So who is just below the top tier? Most of the 3*s. Hulk 141 is really scary. Cmags and Spidey (pre-nerf, anyway) are very good. But really, I am intimidated by every 3* with the exception of Rags and DD. But if you fight/use them at level 85, they compare to the best 85s, Ares and Thor and OBW. In the highest tiers, level matters more and more, and generally, that's the "reward" for collecting a rare character's covers. Take a look at GSW; she's very good PvE (I once managed to eke out a level 150 mmook win with a level 24 2/2/1 GSW), she has a powerful AoE, and at level 85 she seems fairly comparable to Ares or Thor or whoever. Expensive powers, but more control, and comparable utility.

    Daredevil, though, his powers just don't match up to the top tier, or even second tier. Compare him at 85, and he's still just an inconsistent support character. OBW is clearly a better damage dealer, minus the occasional Ambush, and also mitigates a ton of damage (via AP drain and healing). 85 Ares does 2k damage with Sunder, only a bit less than Ambush at that level. Storm (Classic) does more with her blue. etc. etc. But he'd be a situationally fun unusual option, like Moonstone. A welcome relief from the Thor/OBW combo that you see all the time at this tier.

    If DD was a common, he'd be pretty cool for those adolescent characters who are still fighting the occasional 40 Juggernaut. Storm (Modern) is certainly more useful (possibly still the best pve character) but ambush (even at like, 2k damage) would still be potent, as would his other abilities. He'd be useable, but also not a must-have. He's balanced for that tier of play.

    tl;dr
    The reason Daredevil sucks is not that he sucks, but only that he sucks when compared to other characters in the role you're using him for. Support? OBW is better. Spidey is better. Honestly Black Widow (Modern) is probably better for PvE. Damage? 7 Red AP for maybe 7000 damage isn't as good as 14-15 Red for definitely 7000 damage, or 12 Black for 3000x3 damage.
  • I was thinking about how to make Daredevil a viable 3 star character and one thing to do would be make every red tile on the board, every environment tile on the field or every blue tile on the field affected. This would make him immediately more effective and more likely to get use out of his abilities. You could make them more expensive, but they are pretty expensive anyway.

    Another less game changing step in the right direction would be to not announce when an ability is used until it is triggered. Whenever I play Daredevil I put him last. Even when he set a trap I stick to the bottom. If you didn't know when a trap was setup it would go a long way towards hiding the traps. Especially if the opponent couldn't see the decrease in AP over the players heads. Maybe have an obscured AP counter as a passive with Daredevil. It would definitely increase his usefulness.
  • Phaserhawk
    Phaserhawk Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    Daredevil's usefulness is as a defensive character only. The AI does play him well, since his abilites are more like passives anyways. With the right team comp, you could scare away players with a fully leveled Daredevil as it could make cascade players leary. But with 3* Daken, it all but put the death nail into Daredevil as you can safely match green and counter his red traps.
  • vudu3
    vudu3 Posts: 940 Critical Contributor
    hurcules wrote:
    Yup. That's what I suggested a few pages back. Make the red trap appear in any basic tile instead of confined to red basic tile only, and he would be a lot more playable.

    That doesn't seem "fair". His current red is a beast but it's fairly easy to avoid by just not matching red. Barring an unfortunate cascade you should be fine. But it completely blocks your ability to get red AP which is extremely important for many characters. If you really need the red then you have to weight the risk/reward of making matches and possibly setting off traps. Same principle goes for the purple and blue powers. His traps are powerful--especially red--but they're fair because you can avoid them if you're willing to not match those colors.

    If the trap can be placed on any tile then there's suddenly no skill to avoid his traps--it's completely random/luck of the draw.
  • hurcules
    hurcules Posts: 519
    vudu3 wrote:
    hurcules wrote:
    Yup. That's what I suggested a few pages back. Make the red trap appear in any basic tile instead of confined to red basic tile only, and he would be a lot more playable.

    That doesn't seem "fair". His current red is a beast but it's fairly easy to avoid by just not matching red. Barring an unfortunate cascade you should be fine. But it completely blocks your ability to get red AP which is extremely important for many characters. If you really need the red then you have to weight the risk/reward of making matches and possibly setting off traps. Same principle goes for the purple and blue powers. His traps are powerful--especially red--but they're fair because you can avoid them if you're willing to not match those colors.

    If the trap can be placed on any tile then there's suddenly no skill to avoid his traps--it's completely random/luck of the draw.
    Well, is it fair that his traps can be disarmed by someone merely matching 3 green tiles? I'd say it's a fair trade. Hell, even if my suggestion is adopted, you can still disarm his traps using Modern Storm's black ability quite easily, or any other abilities that blow up board / tiles. Of course luck plays a big part in all things RNG-governed that is MPQ. A lucky/unlucky cascade can make or break your game. Given how easily his traps can be disarm, this change is minimal effort on dev's part to implement, yet make DD stronger.