*** Iron Fist (Immortal Weapon) ***

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  • simonsezsimonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
    +3 all AP boosts, +3 green / black, +3 blue purple. Turn 1 - IF purple, cascade into 5.3 black tiles (rounded up to 6). Turn 1 surgical. Yup, totally balanced.
    Why is boosting +6 all a relevant test to see if a character is balanced? I mean, unless I throw together a formation that's useless to begin with, if I'm boosting +6 all, it's going to be pretty fast and devastating no matter who they are.
  • GothicKratosGothicKratos Posts: 1,821 Chairperson of the Boards
    simonsez wrote:
    +3 all AP boosts, +3 green / black, +3 blue purple. Turn 1 - IF purple, cascade into 5.3 black tiles (rounded up to 6). Turn 1 surgical. Yup, totally balanced.
    Why is boosting +6 all a relevant test to see if a character is balanced? I mean, unless I throw together a formation that's useless to begin with, if I'm boosting +6 all, it's going to be pretty fast and devastating no matter who they are.

    Hulk/Patch, 2* Mags/Mystique, and, to a lesser degree, Sentry come to mind - if you're disbarring X-Force and 4* Thor - who else is there that can do anything remotely devastating like this? Keeping in mind, also, all three of those things I mentioned have tangible, serious drawbacks in health packs and/or consistency.

    Boosts are used to highlight imbalanced, because they amplify them, firstly, and secondly, because they're part of the meta so why shouldn't they be a consideration? "In a vacuum" discussions only go so far in balance, you have to look at all the variables.

    That being said, I wouldn't go as far as to say this guy is 'broken', but dammit if he isn't really tinykitty good. I'd place him in the same tier as Hood. He's going to be one of the 'essential' guys like Patch, Loki, Cage, etc. Personally, I'd even level this guy over other kinda staple guys like BP or 3* Thor.
  • PhaserhawkPhaserhawk Age Unconfirmed Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2015
    Kappei wrote:
    Sumilea wrote:
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    I mean the character by itself actually is pretty cool. Purple creates black which empowers purple and green, except when you have extremely lethal black skills currently this is not a good idea.

    I really cannot see it staying in it current form for long. I get the feeling this will be changed like BP was before its even released.

    But seriously, does anybody test these abilities in a "realistic environment"? I don't mean anything crazy, but a pairing at least with the current metagame definers (Xforce and TGT) should be taken in consideration.

    Even without those 2, just some of the top characters, I mean 1st or 2nd turn Rage of the Panther or Full Blast. Some lesser but just as devastating are 1st Turn Hailstorm, Summon Demons, Hell, this would make Gamora pretty scary as if you could have her tank 3 colors, you are looking at first turn 1K worth of strike tiles

    However, as I said before with Cyclops being a darn good X-Force replacement, this new guy plus Cyclops could be the new Sentry/Hood combo.

    Boosts.

    --Convert Damage into Cascades and loads of Black.
    --Mutant Revolutionary to ensure enough red
    --Full Blast some one to near death
    --keep collecting purple/yellow/red to ensure constant damage.

    It does not have the AoE of Sentry but it's got some really good single target nukes. The 3*'s may finally have some answers to X-Force and 4hor.

    Question though. If this guy stays as is, would he replace 4hor to pair with X-Force in PvP?
  • There is a drawback though because if xor users use this new character for offensive purposes it leaves them somewhat exposed on defense since:

    1. The low hit points
    2. the ai will most likely not use the purple correctly (if it's placed like mnmags)
    3. Lacks the intimidating factor of xforce/thor so won't be skipped

    I would rather face an xforce/new guy/featured than the xforce/thor/featured of today.

    Buuuuuuuuuut....probably a drawback too insignificant to make a difference.
  • hesjingixenhesjingixen Posts: 214 Tile Toppler
    The real question is....does this make 3/5/5 a more viable build than 5/5/3 for Luke Cage? (Assuming of course that you would combo these two).
  • 2. the ai will most likely not use the purple correctly (if it's placed like mnmags)


    I'm 99% certain that the skill will not let you place tiles where you want, but will instead place them randomly. Compare it to GSBW's purple, which costs 11 purpletile.png to place 6 tiles where you want to. 9 placeable tiles for 5 purpletile.png would just be downright broken, instead of just very, very good like the random version.


    Anyway, Unknown does seem a touch overpowered for a 3*, with the very strong attack tile and the amazing purple. I won't be surprised if those numbers are tweaked before release.
  • PhaserhawkPhaserhawk Age Unconfirmed Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    The real question is....does this make 3/5/5 a more viable build than 5/5/3 for Luke Cage? (Assuming of course that you would combo these two).

    IMO, yes.

    Luke Cage with 4hor or X-force 5/5/3 but in the situation you described of just these 2, then yes have Cage's black maxed out would be superior, considering it would just take 5 purple to liter the board with black, you would just have to worry your CD tile gets matched away.
  • h4n1sh4n1s Age Unconfirmed Posts: 427 Mover and Shaker
    This totally fits to how I would picture skillset of Howard the Duck!!!

    406px-HowardTheDuck_Head.jpg
  • Purple is completely overpowered. Green seems very decent without black AP, adding a free Judgement if you have black. Black also seems on the edge of overpowered.
    The only teams this character doesn't work well with would be those that generate attack tiles. I really hope they don't release the character like this. I almost feel like this character's abilities were released as a bet on what the forum would say about it.
  • edited February 2015
    I hope IceIX keeps doing these prerelease stats just so everyone can critique the cost and judge the reaction. Doing this gives the devs a chance to tweak the characters before the release. I love this new character, but I'm also with everyone else. Raise the cost of the purple to 7 and he's golden.
  • NorthernPolarityNorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    There is a drawback though because if xor users use this new character for offensive purposes it leaves them somewhat exposed on defense since:

    1. The low hit points
    2. the ai will most likely not use the purple correctly (if it's placed like mnmags)
    3. Lacks the intimidating factor of xforce/thor so won't be skipped

    I would rather face an xforce/new guy/featured than the xforce/thor/featured of today.

    Buuuuuuuuuut....probably a drawback too insignificant to make a difference.

    I'm not entirely sure this is even true. So imagine the look on your face when Thor does a thunder strike and causes infinite cascades into Call the Storm. This guy does that with 5 purple AP into surgical strike. Not to mention the free 5k damage off the attack tile, he seems really good on defense as well. Everyone is getting hung up on the "oh but if he doesn't cast purple with 12 black AP it's bad". Well no, it's actually a damageless Thunder Strike, and leads to massive black cascades and ensuring black abilities, which is arguably even better than 4k damage.
  • AronditeArondite Age Unconfirmed Posts: 1,188 Chairperson of the Boards
    simonsez wrote:
    +3 all AP boosts, +3 green / black, +3 blue purple. Turn 1 - IF purple, cascade into 5.3 black tiles (rounded up to 6). Turn 1 surgical. Yup, totally balanced.
    Why is boosting +6 all a relevant test to see if a character is balanced? I mean, unless I throw together a formation that's useless to begin with, if I'm boosting +6 all, it's going to be pretty fast and devastating no matter who they are.
    Not that I have decided that this guy is broken or anything (I don't think we can jump to that conclusion without having used him), but wasn't Sentry nerfed because of his speed with boosts?
  • Kappei wrote:
    Sumilea wrote:
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    I mean the character by itself actually is pretty cool. Purple creates black which empowers purple and green, except when you have extremely lethal black skills currently this is not a good idea.

    I really cannot see it staying in it current form for long. I get the feeling this will be changed like BP was before its even released.

    But seriously, does anybody test these abilities in a "realistic environment"? I don't mean anything crazy, but a pairing at least with the current metagame definers (Xforce and TGT) should be taken in consideration.


    You would think so!!!


    But....alas...


    MPQ GONNA MPQ.
  • PhaserhawkPhaserhawk Age Unconfirmed Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    There is a drawback though because if xor users use this new character for offensive purposes it leaves them somewhat exposed on defense since:

    1. The low hit points
    2. the ai will most likely not use the purple correctly (if it's placed like mnmags)
    3. Lacks the intimidating factor of xforce/thor so won't be skipped

    I would rather face an xforce/new guy/featured than the xforce/thor/featured of today.

    Buuuuuuuuuut....probably a drawback too insignificant to make a difference.

    I'm not entirely sure this is even true. So imagine the look on your face when Thor does a thunder strike and causes infinite cascades into Call the Storm. This guy does that with 5 purple AP into surgical strike. Not to mention the free 5k damage off the attack tile, he seems really good on defense as well. Everyone is getting hung up on the "oh but if he doesn't cast purple with 12 black AP it's bad". Well no, it's actually a damageless Thunder Strike, and leads to massive black cascades and ensuring black abilities, which is arguably even better than 4k damage.

    Just to be clear everyone is reading this correctly

    If less than 12 Black AP you create 9 tiles, if more than 12 Black AP you do the dmg instead no tiles are created, so it's Thunderstrike divided into 2 you get one half or the other not both.
  • Phaserhawk wrote:
    There is a drawback though because if xor users use this new character for offensive purposes it leaves them somewhat exposed on defense since:

    1. The low hit points
    2. the ai will most likely not use the purple correctly (if it's placed like mnmags)
    3. Lacks the intimidating factor of xforce/thor so won't be skipped

    I would rather face an xforce/new guy/featured than the xforce/thor/featured of today.

    Buuuuuuuuuut....probably a drawback too insignificant to make a difference.

    I'm not entirely sure this is even true. So imagine the look on your face when Thor does a thunder strike and causes infinite cascades into Call the Storm. This guy does that with 5 purple AP into surgical strike. Not to mention the free 5k damage off the attack tile, he seems really good on defense as well. Everyone is getting hung up on the "oh but if he doesn't cast purple with 12 black AP it's bad". Well no, it's actually a damageless Thunder Strike, and leads to massive black cascades and ensuring black abilities, which is arguably even better than 4k damage.

    Just to be clear everyone is reading this correctly

    If less than 12 Black AP you create 9 tiles, if more than 12 Black AP you do the dmg instead no tiles are created, so it's Thunderstrike divided into 2 you get one half or the other not both.

    But because it's "you create" it means you place them down like MMN. Which boosted means it's first turn SS or RotP. That is ridiculous and I don't know how the devs though that was a fair or balanced move. It's game over before you even start.
  • NorthernPolarityNorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    ecir2002 wrote:
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    There is a drawback though because if xor users use this new character for offensive purposes it leaves them somewhat exposed on defense since:

    1. The low hit points
    2. the ai will most likely not use the purple correctly (if it's placed like mnmags)
    3. Lacks the intimidating factor of xforce/thor so won't be skipped

    I would rather face an xforce/new guy/featured than the xforce/thor/featured of today.

    Buuuuuuuuuut....probably a drawback too insignificant to make a difference.

    I'm not entirely sure this is even true. So imagine the look on your face when Thor does a thunder strike and causes infinite cascades into Call the Storm. This guy does that with 5 purple AP into surgical strike. Not to mention the free 5k damage off the attack tile, he seems really good on defense as well. Everyone is getting hung up on the "oh but if he doesn't cast purple with 12 black AP it's bad". Well no, it's actually a damageless Thunder Strike, and leads to massive black cascades and ensuring black abilities, which is arguably even better than 4k damage.

    Just to be clear everyone is reading this correctly

    If less than 12 Black AP you create 9 tiles, if more than 12 Black AP you do the dmg instead no tiles are created, so it's Thunderstrike divided into 2 you get one half or the other not both.

    But because it's "you create" it means you place them down like MMN. Which boosted means it's first turn SS or RotP. That is ridiculous and I don't know how the devs though that was a fair or balanced move. It's game over before you even start.

    No lol, the devs aren't crazy enough to make these tiles placeable. I'm assuming that the ability is random (because the devs aren't completely dumb), and even that is good enough to get turn 1 SS and RotP, as you can see from the simulator results boasting 5 tiles destroyed on average.
  • simonsezsimonsez Posts: 4,663 Chairperson of the Boards
    Arondite wrote:
    wasn't Sentry nerfed because of his speed with boosts?
    Yes, but boosted Sentry literally ended the match after a couple turns. Don't get me wrong, getting off Surgical after 1 or 2 moves is a great start and most likely gives you an insurmountable advantage, but you still need to finish the match.
  • AronditeArondite Age Unconfirmed Posts: 1,188 Chairperson of the Boards
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    There is a drawback though because if xor users use this new character for offensive purposes it leaves them somewhat exposed on defense since:

    1. The low hit points
    2. the ai will most likely not use the purple correctly (if it's placed like mnmags)
    3. Lacks the intimidating factor of xforce/thor so won't be skipped

    I would rather face an xforce/new guy/featured than the xforce/thor/featured of today.

    Buuuuuuuuuut....probably a drawback too insignificant to make a difference.

    I'm not entirely sure this is even true. So imagine the look on your face when Thor does a thunder strike and causes infinite cascades into Call the Storm. This guy does that with 5 purple AP into surgical strike. Not to mention the free 5k damage off the attack tile, he seems really good on defense as well. Everyone is getting hung up on the "oh but if he doesn't cast purple with 12 black AP it's bad". Well no, it's actually a damageless Thunder Strike, and leads to massive black cascades and ensuring black abilities, which is arguably even better than 4k damage.

    Just to be clear everyone is reading this correctly

    If less than 12 Black AP you create 9 tiles, if more than 12 Black AP you do the dmg instead no tiles are created, so it's Thunderstrike divided into 2 you get one half or the other not both.

    Did you need to make a separate post to day the same thing he just said?
  • Interesting, I was thinking Purple was overpowered just as a transformation move, totally outclassing Mystique's infiltration or Doom's Technopathic Strike. At 5 AP it's even possible to save up for 2 casts at once, probably ending the round.

    This character is an automatic hit for anyone who has X-Force. Someone who feeds you fuel for surgical strike on the other team? Yes, please!
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