*** Iron Fist (Immortal Weapon) ***

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  • MawtfulMawtful Posts: 1,646 Chairperson of the Boards
    I think this makes sense. I started writing and then chopped a bunch of paragraphs into separate ideas. Sorry if it's rubbish.

    5 AP for 9 AP gained would be good value. Given that it's so cheap, and the likelihood of black tiles already being in play, you've got a good chance at generating more than 9 AP. Outside of the obvious offensive usage (generate AP for yourself), it has defensive potential for eliminating a colour from the board temporarily, eg. cover all blue when fighting Daken.

    Colour conversion is a tricky one to gauge. Although there are a number of abilities which provide it, there's very little consistency between them to come to a definite conclusion. That being said,
    3* Black Widow spends 11 Purple AP to generate 6 Green AP - targeted, basic tiles only, cannot target green. Can spend Green.
    2* Magneto spends 9 Purple AP to generate 5 Blue AP - targeted, basic tiles only. Can spend Blue.
    Cyclops spends 7 Yellow to generate 8 Red AP - untargeted, random TU tiles only. Can spend Red, Black has conditional damage increase from red tiles in play.

    New character can't spend the black AP by themselves. It can be used to activate the "next level" of their Green and then converts purple into a damage ability. This is not like Magneto or Ragnarok being able to fuel nearly limitless turns by themselves. This character needs someone else to spend that AP if they want to keep spamming that conversion. If you consider purple as a nuke, 5 for 4k sounds great, but you will have to cast the ability once for 0 damage in order to hit that 12 AP threshold, so it's more like 10 AP for 4k and then increasingly better AP ratio for each additional cast.

    I think the big concern is that black is currently such a strong colour and the obvious use is not for a cheap 4k nuke but to accelerate Surgical Strike - if the enemy is strong in Black, Green or Purple, then X Force laughs all the way to the reward screen.

    My only suggestion would be to apply the 12 AP threshold as a requirement for the Black passive to activate. This way all abilities now feel like the character "powers up" as they hit that threshold and it may provide reason to actually consider spending all your black AP to cascade the heck out of the board and possibly lose your attack tile.

    Additional discussion point:
    What if this character's powers were changed to Yellow/Green/Black? That is, Yellow creating the Strike tiles and spending Green to generate black. Would there be as much concern about accelerating XForce?
  • TheVultureTheVulture Posts: 347 Mover and Shaker
    So, having slept on it, does anyone else think that the write-up may be missing the following?

    Convert Damage - 5 purpletile.png AP
    Focuses energy into a powerful strike. If the team has less than 12 Black AP, converts 5 basic tiles to Black. If the team has 12 or more Black AP, deals 498 damage instead.
    Level Upgrades
      Level 2: Deals 598 damage if the team has 12 or more Black AP. Level 3: Either converts 6 basic tiles to Black or deals 697 damage.
    Costs 6.
    Level 4: Either converts 7 basic tiles to Black or deals 896 damage. Costs 7.
    Level 5: Either converts 9 basic tiles to Black or deals 1295 damage. Costs 8.

    Number of tiles being 1 higher than cost is consistent with Mutant Revolutionary, and generally in line with being a scattergun version of Deceptive Tactics and Polarity Shift.

    6 Purple AP for 2,215 damage or 8 Purple AP for 4,113 damage makes this the beefiest single-target purple snipe, but it's not a] insane (with the black AP threshold) and b] doesn't entirely eclipse Diabolical Plot - costs more and is less consistent, but in return has no damage cap.

    As it is Unknown is likely to retire Punisher and Doctor Doom anyways, but I do genuinely think the cost 5 may not be accurate... (sorry IceIX!)
  • NorthernPolarityNorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    Lerysh wrote:
    In PvE, once the nodes get hyperscaled (200+), I think he falls out of favor compared to Loki. 5k free damage and 4k nukes doesn't compare so well when facing down 20k juggs. Not to mention that versus those nodes, the only thing that matters is how fast you can accelerate 4or's red / blue, which this guy fails at compared to Loki.

    You forget that 20k juggs takes more than 10 turns to kill (most times). I'd wager the 5k free damage is more like 10k free damage in PvE. With this character and Cage paired up, you can take all of Juggs red so he can't headbutt and watch his 20k health melt away. Maybe throw in a Red/Green outlet (for your 3/5/5) like Thor or Patch and watch the good times roll. Also holy **** survival nodes. Those take way WAY more than 10 turns. Bonus damage multiplied.

    My analysis for that section was directed specifically at xor users. It's clear that he isn't good enough to replace either or, so when talking about XF / GT / New Guy vs XF / GT / Loki, illusions + mischief is going to be doing a lot more for that team than the attack tile will and black fueling X-Force will.

    In terms of overall PvE merit, sure, he's pretty useful and will probably be one of the best guys to have discounting xor, but he doesn't replace Loki as xor's third wheel unless you're facing a Hood that you have to kill ASAP. He's not really on the top tier survival mode team, since GT again dominates that format, making anyone that doesn't support her not optimal for that format. Surge -> Smite -> Smite -> Smite -> Mistress -> Lightning Storm -> Illusions -> Illusions -> .... in an infinite loop is by far the best thing you can be doing in survival mode compared to any other strategy.
  • NorthernPolarityNorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited February 2015
    So I'm just going to put this here, taken from Thor's thunder strike.
    Level 5: Converts 9 tiles. 339 damage.
    Probability of a cascade occurring: 0.780725
    Average tiles destroyed: 8.72598
    Average Tiles destroyed by color:
    YELLOW: 0.53998 tiles destroyed
    TEAMUP: 0.720015 tiles destroyed
    BLACK: 0.539935 tiles destroyed
    PURPLE: 0.537825 tiles destroyed
    GREEN: 5.311655 tiles destroyed
    BLUE: 0.53791 tiles destroyed
    RED: 0.53866 tiles destroyed

    I didn't realize this in the initial analysis for some reason, but IF's purple at level 5 is essentially a thunder strike without the 2k damage for 5 purple AP. Pair that with Surgical or RotP, and you basically have 5 purple: surgical or RotP instantly. This guy is probably insane in PvP as a result. I have no idea how the current incarnation of purple got past testing, because it seems extremely powerful, and borderline broken.

    +3 all AP boosts, +3 green / black, +3 blue purple. Turn 1 - IF purple, cascade into 5.3 black tiles (rounded up to 6). Turn 1 surgical. Yup, totally balanced.
  • XenoberyllXenoberyll Posts: 647 Critical Contributor
    everybody was kung fu fighting...those kicks were fast as lightning...*singing*

    i would have guessed Iron Fist had a different color scheme though.
  • atomzedatomzed Posts: 1,530 Chairperson of the Boards
    This guy is probably insane in PvP as a result. I have no idea how the current incarnation of purple got past testing, because it seems extremely powerful, and borderline broken.

    +3 all AP boosts, +3 green / black, +3 blue purple. Turn 1 - IF purple, cascade into 5.3 black tiles (rounded up to 6). Turn 1 surgical. Yup, totally balanced.


    Just from this post alone, I hope they balance him before release...a turn 1 surgical is just too OP. It may be faster than pre nerf sentry, as sentry still need to match one green and yellow....
  • zonatahuntzonatahunt Posts: 220 Tile Toppler
    So I'm just going to put this here, taken from Thor's thunder strike.
    Level 5: Converts 9 tiles. 339 damage.
    Probability of a cascade occurring: 0.780725
    Average tiles destroyed: 8.72598
    Average Tiles destroyed by color:
    YELLOW: 0.53998 tiles destroyed
    TEAMUP: 0.720015 tiles destroyed
    BLACK: 0.539935 tiles destroyed
    PURPLE: 0.537825 tiles destroyed
    GREEN: 5.311655 tiles destroyed
    BLUE: 0.53791 tiles destroyed
    RED: 0.53866 tiles destroyed

    I didn't realize this in the initial analysis for some reason, but IF's purple at level 5 is essentially a thunder strike without the 2k damage for 5 purple AP. Pair that with Surgical or RotP, and you basically have 5 purple: surgical or RotP instantly. This guy is probably insane in PvP as a result. I have no idea how the current incarnation of purple got past testing, because it seems extremely powerful, and borderline broken.

    +3 all AP boosts, +3 green / black, +3 blue purple. Turn 1 - IF purple, cascade into 5.3 black tiles (rounded up to 6). Turn 1 surgical. Yup, totally balanced.


    I think the easiest way to balance his purple power, and to keep him very strong (because there needs to be strong characters, and weak ones), is to simply make his purple cost 7AP. There, you have to at least make one match before you can possibly roll into a SS.
  • Whoever this is I'm definitely building them to 3,5,5 icon_e_biggrin.gif Suckers gonna go perfect with XF, Cyclops, and Cage! Can't wait.
  • smoq84smoq84 Age Unconfirmed Posts: 421 Mover and Shaker
    For me it's definitely Iron Fist (especially because of the purple skill) - I would love it! icon_e_smile.gif
  • IlDuderinoIlDuderino Age Unconfirmed Posts: 427 Mover and Shaker
    Whoever this is, that strike tile on black is a HUGE defensive deterrent in PvP. Hard to see any team without Luke Cage / major boosting walking away from that fight without losing 6k plus health
  • IlDuderino wrote:
    Whoever this is, that strike tile on black is a HUGE defensive deterrent in PvP. Hard to see any team without Luke Cage / major boosting walking away from that fight without losing 6k plus health

    As said before: XForce+mr.Unknown here = turn 1 surgical strike. I know, it means boosting, but I have a slight suspect that if nothing changes XFist (SexFist?) is going to be the new power duo in PvP.

    EDIT: also, in a mirror match, if the order of the abilities is also the power of the tiles, it means you're going to follow that turn-1 SS with one or two X-forces... Is it too soon to call for a nerf?
  • IlDuderinoIlDuderino Age Unconfirmed Posts: 427 Mover and Shaker
    Kappei wrote:
    IlDuderino wrote:
    Whoever this is, that strike tile on black is a HUGE defensive deterrent in PvP. Hard to see any team without Luke Cage / major boosting walking away from that fight without losing 6k plus health

    As said before: XForce+mr.Unknown here = turn 1 surgical strike. I know, it means boosting, but I have a slight suspect that if nothing changes XFist (SexFist?) is going to be the new power duo in PvP.

    EDIT: also, in a mirror match, if the order of the abilities is also the power of the tiles, it means you're going to follow that turn-1 SS with one or two X-forces... Is it too soon to call for a nerf?

    I was just referring to match damage to a team attacking a team with this character. For sure, taking this guy / gal on offense with XForce is going to be speedy carnage
  • 3/5/5
    Farm purple. Get black, SS and Xforce.
    No regrets.
  • I bet on Drax or Iron Fist.
  • ScoregasmsScoregasms Age Unconfirmed Posts: 373
    What I learned from this thread, spoiler tags really do work apparently.
  • It's already been confirmed elsewhere that it's Spider-Ham.
  • PhaserhawkPhaserhawk Age Unconfirmed Posts: 2,676 Chairperson of the Boards
    So I'm just going to put this here, taken from Thor's thunder strike.
    Level 5: Converts 9 tiles. 339 damage.
    Probability of a cascade occurring: 0.780725
    Average tiles destroyed: 8.72598
    Average Tiles destroyed by color:
    YELLOW: 0.53998 tiles destroyed
    TEAMUP: 0.720015 tiles destroyed
    BLACK: 0.539935 tiles destroyed
    PURPLE: 0.537825 tiles destroyed
    GREEN: 5.311655 tiles destroyed
    BLUE: 0.53791 tiles destroyed
    RED: 0.53866 tiles destroyed

    I didn't realize this in the initial analysis for some reason, but IF's purple at level 5 is essentially a thunder strike without the 2k damage for 5 purple AP. Pair that with Surgical or RotP, and you basically have 5 purple: surgical or RotP instantly. This guy is probably insane in PvP as a result. I have no idea how the current incarnation of purple got past testing, because it seems extremely powerful, and borderline broken.

    +3 all AP boosts, +3 green / black, +3 blue purple. Turn 1 - IF purple, cascade into 5.3 black tiles (rounded up to 6). Turn 1 surgical. Yup, totally balanced.

    I did a double take as well. At first read I was like, hmmm, this won't do much, then I read it again. Yeah creating an average of 5 black tiles on first turn to instantly go into a Surgical Strike, possible Rage of the Panther and occasional a Full Blast (If you boost red/yellow + black/green + +3 All, you need 1 yellow to drop on ensuing cascade to empower Cyclops yellow to fill board with enough red to Full Blast Someone assuming you got 7 Black on cascade, not as guarenteed but if a board won't yield much of a color you need, this could be a good option, plus if you stole red, Optic Blast does more upfront damage then Smite)

    I mean the character by itself actually is pretty cool. Purple creates black which empowers purple and green, except when you have extremely lethal black skills currently this is not a good idea.
  • Marc_SpectorMarc_Spector Posts: 557 Critical Contributor
    edited February 2015
    Grizzlegom wrote:
    Abilities scream iron fist to me when I read them. Not sure that's a color combo I'd expect from him but I'll take it. The black ability being the attack version of unbreakable for luke cage makes sense for Iron Fist as well given how often they team up
    thcipironfist.jpg
  • Phaserhawk wrote:
    I mean the character by itself actually is pretty cool. Purple creates black which empowers purple and green, except when you have extremely lethal black skills currently this is not a good idea.

    I really cannot see it staying in it current form for long. I get the feeling this will be changed like BP was before its even released.
  • Sumilea wrote:
    Phaserhawk wrote:
    I mean the character by itself actually is pretty cool. Purple creates black which empowers purple and green, except when you have extremely lethal black skills currently this is not a good idea.

    I really cannot see it staying in it current form for long. I get the feeling this will be changed like BP was before its even released.

    But seriously, does anybody test these abilities in a "realistic environment"? I don't mean anything crazy, but a pairing at least with the current metagame definers (Xforce and TGT) should be taken in consideration.
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