Funbalanced

KillStormFirst

ihearthawthats wrote:

Daken is a great transition hero. He promotes balanced progression imo. Thor and Wolverine you can just end up using them forever because why not. It takes a really long time for the few 3-stars who can even potentially be better than them to be worth replacing them.

And I disagree that Thor/Wolvie are needed for top45 placement. Top5 may be out of the equation, but top45 is certainly doable.

Don't like Daken but I still took something from you said... People wouldn't be using just Thor and Wolverine if they had the iso (and covers) to upgrade their other heores. Anyone who has maxed out a 2* or 3* character(s) knows that it's a long process. Especially if you've done it with several characters and while trying to spend little, if any, money. We're talking a ####-ton of iso 8 here! If you want to win you'll go with The Dream Team (Wolverine, Thor, and XXXXX) because you know you'll still get the win while you're still building a stronger roster for the future -- one character at a time. The mechanics of the game require spending said iso.. long story short -- make the iso tournament and progression rewards higher. I'm not paying a thing for anything until this "nerf the good players" witch hunt is over. Not too mention prior to these announcements I can't recall reading about anyone having a problem with 2* Thor & Wolverine. Ragnarok, sure. Classic Storm (pre-nerf), okay fine. BUT WE DEALT WITH IT BECAUSE THAT'S HOW YOU PLAY THE GAME!

mooken

Garwalker wrote:

ihearthawthats wrote:

Garwalker wrote:

Not really sure why the need to nerf both characters [...] The reason they are overused is because they are the two best two star characters.

I think you just answered your own question.

So when Ares and BWO are the two most popular , are they next to be nerfed? Nerfing popular characters probably isn't the answer. Instead look at ways to upgrade the other 10 characters and so that they are compelling to use.

I almost feel like there needs to be a MPQ-Beta App, where new characters are first released, in a completely separate economy & use group from the one where paying customers are.
(I'm sure somebody else has suggested this before)
They would be able to gauge the usage patterns of these new characters in the wild, and not subject themselves to customer ire after they create, then nerf, an overpowered character -- and all this before customers sink any HP or money into buffing these characters.
Additionally, create a mirror/dump of the MPQ-Public users, and throw those into MPQ-Beta pool, so that the MPQ-Beta players can try the new characters against the existing meta (without the MPQ-Public users actually be involved -- just leave them in the PvP pool like the PvP Seed Characters).

Unknown

KillStormFirst wrote:

ihearthawthats wrote:

Daken is a great transition hero. He promotes balanced progression imo. Thor and Wolverine you can just end up using them forever because why not. It takes a really long time for the few 3-stars who can even potentially be better than them to be worth replacing them.

And I disagree that Thor/Wolvie are needed for top45 placement. Top5 may be out of the equation, but top45 is certainly doable.

Don't like Daken but I still took something from you said... People wouldn't be using just Thor and Wolverine if they had the iso (and covers) to upgrade their other heores. Anyone who has maxed out a 2* or 3* character(s) knows that it's a long process. Especially if you've done it with several characters and while trying to spend little, if any, money. We're talking a ####-ton of iso 8 here! If you want to win you'll go with The Dream Team (Wolverine, Thor, and XXXXX) because you know you'll still get the win while you're still building a stronger roster for the future -- one character at a time. The mechanics of the game require spending said iso.. long story short -- make the iso tournament and progression rewards higher. I'm not paying a thing for anything until this "nerf the good players" witch hunt is over. Not too mention prior to these announcements I can't recall reading about anyone having a problem with 2* Thor & Wolverine. Ragnarok, sure. Classic Storm (pre-nerf), okay fine. BUT WE DEALT WITH IT BECAUSE THAT'S HOW YOU PLAY THE GAME!

I have fairly high-levels on IM40, GSBW and Doom. I've put a lot of ISO into all of them. Daken is also maxed.

I never play them over Thor and Wolverine if I want to win quickly, because barely anyone in the game matches those two on offense when you want a speedy kill paired with a survivable team.

Unknown

KLoganR wrote:

Koolbiird wrote:

Nerfing characters has NEVER improved a game. I've been gaming for decades and nerfs only alienate gamers. Human beings thrive off of consistency and choice.

Never? Nerfing has improved many games. I play a lot of FPS and with the release of a new title there are always weapons/abilities that are overpowered. The community catches on to this and within a week 80% of the players are running around with the exact same weapon/ability. The game has over 50 choices of weapons/abilities but if you want to be competitive you pretty much have to use the over-powered weapon/ability that everyone else is. Once the developers recognize this issue they nerf the weapon/ability. In the gaming world the search for the most powerful combo continues and people start using different weapons/abilities.

There is a reason game designers produce games with so many different choices. People like changing the routine up a bit. Would you really play this game for more than a few months if every team (including yours) consisted of Rag/Thor/wolverine--or some variation of that? There is a reason the developers made a game with so many different characters.

Don't feel like repeating myself. Nerfing doesn't work. Nothing more to say.

Kavel

Il Palazzo wrote:

Kiamodo wrote:

Kavel wrote:

I think the weird AI and presence of boosts make for a very bizarre system to try to balance characters around. Remember that the teams you actually play in any PVP matches are controlled by the deliberately inefficient and handicapped AI, and are being played in a way completely different from how any human would play them. If they're balancing characters in response to complaints of people being beaten by certain teams, they're balancing characters around how the AI plays them. That doesn't make sense to me.

I think this is the real culprit here.

An easy fix would be making opponents untargettable (pvp only), instead rotating based on matches like the active player.

Actually, I think the easiest solution would just be to have PVE tournaments where the players all had the same gauntlet of opponent teams. The fact that the opponents I'm up against in a tourney are the teams selected by (but not played by) another person is completely arbitrary and isn't truly PVP even if you call it that. Be honest, I can go up against TheLadder or Polkio or someone like that in a tourney, even running a far superior team than mine, and beat them consistently because (1) buffs; and (2) I'm playing the AI, not the player. My opponent gets a message saying s/he's been beaten but that's total ****. I'm playing a team s/he selected, but played as though he had no strategic thought at all on any aspect of game play, from tile matching (offensive or defensive), ability usage, targeting order, stockpiling, or multiple ability usage.

I think the better solution (or at least a worthwhile experiment) is to seed a tournament bracket with a ton of teams of ascending difficulty and let players duke it out over who can get the furthest. We know they can already obviously seed NPC teams, and we know they can scale "PVE" characters far above the player caps that exist for players. So why not just have a tourney where all opponents are NPC teams, and as your MMR escalates, you start drawing tougher and tougher teams?

Unknown

KillStormFirst brings up a good point.

I wonder, what percentage of people on the forums complaining about Thor/Wolverine prevalence have leveled 3* characters? Odds are, a relative majority. So you're complaining that all you see in tourneys is Thor/Wolverine, but ignoring the fact that the majority of the playerbase does not have a well-rounded 3* roster from which to build a team. People with competitive 3* rosters that whine about seeing Thor/Wolverine every where - well, you are just out of touch.

People like winning, so they will use the best team possible out of what is available to them. Among the 2* characters Thor/Wolverine are the best. And Prologue gives you covers. So of course there will be an overabundance of Thor/Wolverine in tourneys. When you nerf Thor/Wolverine, you will make it harder for new players to compete, widening the vet/pay vs beginner/free gap.

Thor/Wolverine are overused - this is fact. But I believe the right way to address this is not to nerf them but to buff underused 2* characters. Of course, making Rag weaker than Thor really gave Devs no real other options, which is unfortunate.

Unknown

People have plenty of covers for Hawkeye (Modern), Captain America, and Moonstone. You sure don't see those characters. Ignoring Magneto and Spiderman (both are on the block for balance), let's go over the other 3 star characters:

IM40 - Very slow.
GSBW - Very slow.
Hulk - Slow and lacking in damage.
Loki - No offense capability.
Dr. Doom - Not directly comparable due to fairly unique set of skills but certainly not a fast character.
Ragnarok - Probably worse than Thor right now.
Punisher - A weaker version of Wolverine right now.
The Hood - He's more of a support character due to his lack of HPs and doesn't replace the 'main damage' or the 'tank' role both Wolverine and Thor can do.

And note that Spiderman easily takes care of the guys with a lot of HPs (IM40, Hulk) with his stuns, and is often a third member of the Wolverine/Thor team. Magneto, of course, is flat out overpowered and can easily take anyone's spot, so there's not much point to talk about him.

There's no reason to use 3 stars even if you had them maxed. Only Magneto kills faster (obviously overpowered), and only Spiderman has better utility. Everyone else is strictly slower, and in most cases, strictly weaker overall.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

People have plenty of covers for Hawkeye (Modern), Captain America, and Moonstone. You sure don't see those characters. Ignoring Magneto and Spiderman (both are on the block for balance), let's go over the other 3 star characters:

IM40 - Very slow.
GSBW - Very slow.
Hulk - Slow and lacking in damage.
Loki - No offense capability.
Dr. Doom - Not directly comparable due to fairly unique set of skills but certainly not a fast character.
Ragnarok - Probably worse than Thor right now.
Punisher - A weaker version of Wolverine right now.
The Hood - He's more of a support character due to his lack of HPs and doesn't replace the 'main damage' or the 'tank' role both Wolverine and Thor can do.

And note that Spiderman easily takes care of the guys with a lot of HPs (IM40, Hulk) with his stuns, and is often a third member of the Wolverine/Thor team. Magneto, of course, is flat out overpowered and can easily take anyone's spot, so there's not much point to talk about him.

There's no reason to use 3 stars even if you had them maxed. Only Magneto kills faster (obviously overpowered), and only Spiderman has better utility. Everyone else is strictly slower, and in most cases, strictly weaker overall.[/q

That is something to think about. So what will the landscape be post Thorverine and Spidey/Mags? It's obvious that slowing down the game is the objective.

Unknown

Koolbiird wrote:

That is something to think about. So what will the landscape be post Thorverine and Spidey/Mags? It's obvious that slowing down the game is the objective.

Well the game has to be slower, or a character like IM40 or GSBW simply has no use at all. The alternative would be to make everyone as fast as the top 3 speed characters in damage (Wolv/Thor/Magneto. Spiderman is fast but obviously has no offense) but then you'd just all have games end in 5 turns no matter who you used, and that'd be equally pointless.

You can still have fast characters but fast abilities can't be powerful. If something uses 6 red AP and another ability uses 12 red AP, the latter ability has to do significnatly more than twice the damage of the first to warrant using it. Sniper Rifle costs 6 Feral Claws to use. 6 Feral Claws, even without any other interaction, can usually flat out kill a person. Okay so Sniper Rifle could kill 3 people, but what about the times you never got 19 green AP (which is like, all the time)? Why go for Unibeam over 2 Mjoinir? That latter does basically as much damage and generally will set you up for another Thunder Strike, and costs less red AP.

Ironically Magneto's red is a good example of a fast ability should look like. As powerful as Magento is, nobody is quaking in fear of the speed of his red. Sure, it's not weak, but you're not exactly running for the hills whenever a Magenetized Particles is coming your way.

Unknown

I'm against a nerf but see the point that these characters are overused. Furthermore, I agree with the idea of making other characters better as opposed to constantly using the nerf-stick. Using the nerf-stick only leads people to the next exploit, it doesn't really change anything. Players are going to always going to gravitate towards the teams that are considered overpowered. I'd also like to agree with whoever said most players will play with the boosted characters, I know I do this and I see lots of others doing this. As such it adds diversity to matchups by creating more of these events if you truly want different matchups.

I like the idea of just canning the "PVP" and making it "PVE" since it is all AI anyway. Lastly, I want to say it sounds pretty elitist for some people to say that you should only get ahead if you pay or are one of the first players of a game. Even with Thor and Wolverine it isn't exactly easy to win every tournament. Particularly when you get near the top of the rankings and most matches offer very little reward and you're getting attacked 3 times for every match you fight.

My suggestions for "balance":
1) Have separate areas for paid vs non-paid players. It's rather ridiculous to think you're going to attract new people when people can buy a max level character that will farm the **** out of newer players because they can afford to and then to reward that farmer.

2) Make all characters viable rather than simply nerfing the ones that people "overuse" or just create more boosted events.

3) Make it so that while fighting the AI you can only have 1 AI version of you fighting someone else.

As a sidenote: Does it not seem overly expensive to anyone else to level Cap? He seems like he could be good but he seems overly expensive to level.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

Koolbiird wrote:

That is something to think about. So what will the landscape be post Thorverine and Spidey/Mags? It's obvious that slowing down the game is the objective.

Well the game has to be slower, or a character like IM40 or GSBW simply has no use at all. The alternative would be to make everyone as fast as the top 3 speed characters in damage (Wolv/Thor/Magneto. Spiderman is fast but obviously has no offense) but then you'd just all have games end in 5 turns no matter who you used, and that'd be equally pointless.

You can still have fast characters but fast abilities can't be powerful. If something uses 6 red AP and another ability uses 12 red AP, the latter ability has to do significnatly more than twice the damage of the first to warrant using it. Sniper Rifle costs 6 Feral Claws to use. 6 Feral Claws, even without any other interaction, can usually flat out kill a person. Okay so Sniper Rifle could kill 3 people, but what about the times you never got 19 green AP (which is like, all the time)? Why go for Unibeam over 2 Mjoinir? That latter does basically as much damage and generally will set you up for another Thunder Strike, and costs less red AP.

Ironically Magneto's red is a good example of a fast ability should look like. As powerful as Magento is, nobody is quaking in fear of the speed of his red. Sure, it's not weak, but you're not exactly running for the hills whenever a Magenetized Particles is coming your way.

The other problem with fast abilities is that they tend to be context-sensitive, and the AI is terrible at those on defense. How many times have you seen Wolvie burn all of his team's green creating single Strike tiles, while Spidey burns all of his team's Yellow on a heal right before he fires his first Web, and Classic Magneto burns all of his team's Red with his terrible power?

Spoit

Phantron wrote:

Koolbiird wrote:

That is something to think about. So what will the landscape be post Thorverine and Spidey/Mags? It's obvious that slowing down the game is the objective.

Well the game has to be slower, or a character like IM40 or GSBW simply has no use at all. The alternative would be to make everyone as fast as the top 3 speed characters in damage (Wolv/Thor/Magneto. Spiderman is fast but obviously has no offense) but then you'd just all have games end in 5 turns no matter who you used, and that'd be equally pointless.

You can still have fast characters but fast abilities can't be powerful. If something uses 6 red AP and another ability uses 12 red AP, the latter ability has to do significnatly more than twice the damage of the first to warrant using it. Sniper Rifle costs 6 Feral Claws to use. 6 Feral Claws, even without any other interaction, can usually flat out kill a person. Okay so Sniper Rifle could kill 3 people, but what about the times you never got 19 green AP (which is like, all the time)? Why go for Unibeam over 2 Mjoinir? That latter does basically as much damage and generally will set you up for another Thunder Strike, and costs less red AP.

Ironically Magneto's red is a good example of a fast ability should look like. As powerful as Magento is, nobody is quaking in fear of the speed of his red. Sure, it's not weak, but you're not exactly running for the hills whenever a Magenetized Particles is coming your way.

I'd like to play whatever version you are where it's "not weak"

Nonce Equitaur 2

Phantron wrote:

IM40 - Very slow.
GSBW - Very slow.
Hulk - Slow and lacking in damage.
Loki - No offense capability.
Dr. Doom - Not directly comparable due to fairly unique set of skills but certainly not a fast character.
Ragnarok - Probably worse than Thor right now.
Punisher - A weaker version of Wolverine right now.
The Hood - He's more of a support character due to his lack of HPs and doesn't replace the 'main damage' or the 'tank' role both Wolverine and Thor can do.

Great analysis. I'm very fond of both Magneto and Spiderman, but can see why they need to be nerfed. I just don't want their nerf to be an extreme one, as happened to Ragnarok. If Rags had gotten a minor nerf, I believe many of the problems he caused would have been solved. Many people are justifiably terrified that they will make similarly extreme changes in the future.

For Magneto, the Blue is the main culprit. It's easy to get many moves in a row at cost 5. If the cost is changed to 6 or 7, then the problem is likely solved. If the cost is changed to 19, then he's been crippled. If they also divide his purple damage by 9, then he's been made useless. At this point, the Developers have made no signal that they understand how much they overdid things with the Ragnarok nerf.

I'm now seeing Spiderman on nearly every team I'm facing. He's quite useful -- he can stunlock the opposing team, and then he can do healing if any damage gets through. Currently, it takes 8 hours or so for a top level character to heal on their own. Healing packs are limited and expensive. Spiderman solves all those problems. If his blue was changed to a cost of 3 or 4, that would keep him from stunning the entire opposition as standard operating procedure. If his blue was raised to 10, that that would cripple him. If his Yellow was removed as it is now, that would also cripple him. How to fix this? First, don't make a Level 140 Hulk heal slow than a Level 15 Hulk. If Hulk getting injured will keep him out half an hour, then that's part of the battle. Maybe I'll bring him in after 10 minutes of healing. When he's gone 8 hours, or when an entire team needs 8 hours of recuperation, and they can only be revitalized free just once -- bring in Spiderman.

The proper fix for Spiderman is to make the healing faster, especially for higher-level characters. And much faster for regenerators.

Unknown

I think Mags' Purple is probably more feared than his Blue. His Blue creates maybe one or two Crits. His Purple one-shots almost anyone in the game.

Kiamodo

Devs please don't break my mags.

Unknown

ihearthawthats wrote:

WilliamK99 wrote:

I don't care either way but the more they attempt to "balance" the game, the worse it seems to be getting...

Do people who've been here since day 1 truly believe this? I think the game had ups and downs, but it's certainly better overall.

Since launch day. I, for one, very happy. If anything, the characters that the most people have, and are easily available inside the pre-tourny missions, should be the weakest of the 2 stars, not the opposite. I can't wait to use characters that will actually be good once everything settles. Definitely a positive direction for this game. (believe me, ive **** a lot. )

Unknown

Dslyexic wrote:

(believe me, ive **** a lot. )

And you're proud of that? *rolls eyes*

Nonce Equitaur 2

PhantomFO wrote:

I think Mags' Purple is probably more feared than his Blue. His Blue creates maybe one or two Crits. His Purple one-shots almost anyone in the game.

Actually, no-one really fears his blue, since the AI is incompetent on using it for Mags. A human player with a high level Mags and a reasonably friendly set of tiles can single-handledly take down a high-level team, though it's slow.

The damage for purple is high, but depends on having red and blue tiles on the board.

Very likely, they will nerf his red power, since it has a cost of 2. I have his red maxed out. It's useful for shaking up the board, and for removing enemies without many hit point left. I mainly use it to see if I can get blue tiles to align better. If his Red power gets a change, and only his red, then that's likely okay. Say ... if they made it cost 6 instead, but it generated AP.

Unknown

Magnetized Projectile is not weak imo, just dwarfed by 2 broken skills. It's not any worse than Hulk's Clap.

Unknown

Nonce Equitaur 2 wrote:

Actually, no-one really fears his blue, since the AI is incompetent on using it for Mags. A human player with a high level Mags and a reasonably friendly set of tiles can single-handledly take down a high-level team, though it's slow.

The damage for purple is high, but depends on having red and blue tiles on the board.

Very likely, they will nerf his red power, since it has a cost of 2. I have his red maxed out. It's useful for shaking up the board, and for removing enemies without many hit point left. I mainly use it to see if I can get blue tiles to align better. If his Red power gets a change, and only his red, then that's likely okay. Say ... if they made it cost 6 instead, but it generated AP.

I don't have a Mags, but I thought everyone complained about his purple being too damaging.