Planned Updates To Shields - New Start Date

Unknown

Beast1970 wrote:

I respectfully disagree. I remember the time before shields, and this definitely was NOT the case back then. Yes, there is a large player base with points, but there is a large player base looking for points at the same time. Life back then was a **** shoot where the last few seconds determined if you were top 5 or top 50. Points actually DID fluctuate that much at the end, as you fought as quickly as possible popping health packs left and right just to try to get decent placement, not even top placement. While I agree that incessant shield hopping needs addressed, I believe a more urgent need is to address the model of points lost vs points gained, and nudge that system to allow a constant player to actually progress or at least break even.

absolutely this. it's ridiculous that someone who's mpq crashed could lose almost 1500 points within the time span it took to restart the app (this recently happened to a player) and lose hours and hours of work. they need to tweak the point system so that people don't get hit for nearly as much as they do now so people don't lose their progression drastically if they decide to not shield.

reckless442

lhkatsu wrote:

Dauthi. This is not directly related to the OP but do you have a max 3* roster or higher?

I had the same question because I don't recall ever seeing Dauthi in PVP. He has a 210 XForce; 160 Daken, CMags and Sentry; 153 Punisher, and then several at the 150/145 range. His Fury and Goddess are not leveled and not fully covered.

Dauthi

franckynight wrote:

Just askin.. Are you from phantron's family?

I'm not around often enough to understand the inside joke, but god forbid me bring hope to the forums! I fought to change Rags, Cmags, revamped spidey (who was later found to simply be a mistake), as well as a proponent of true healing. I simply think that the devs are trying to make things better, and usually they know better than "forumites". They have had hiccups like making alliances free but not compensating us, but tend to change course if they make a mistake.

lhkatsu wrote:

Dauthi. This is not directly related to the OP but do you have a max 3* roster or higher?

You can check my roster, I am in (lead) shake n bake as my sig shows. I underleveled my characters to level them evenly before certain MMR changes happened awhile back that made it not worth it. As my join date indicates, I have been around a long time, and like to debate new changes.

gobstopper wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

As I said in the bolded, it wasn't intended. Nobody expected CMags to stay broken as he was forever, the gameplay people used him for was unintended and unfun, change was inevitable

CMags unfun?

True, I guess I was assuming everyone liked a challenge. Perhaps some people enjoy using the same skill over and over (seriously, how many times would you end up using it?) as an auto win button, I just didn't. Let's not kid ourselves either though, it didn't take a genius to create a 5 blue match. This was equal to the old Rags who would spam red again and again...

theshadeofopal

Please guys, go back the drawing boards on this one. I don't disagree that something should possibly be done about shield hopping but this isn't it, at least not at the current idea for recharge time and the current amount of points lost per defensive loss. There is a consistent message from a design standpoint that you want players to have choices. Obviously time slices haven't worked out great but at least they were a step in the right direction. This feels like an intentional move to direct players operate a certain way, join pvps well in advance of ending.

Also, as a side not I've been in a few consistently high ranking alliances now and have never seen much in the way mass hopping. Generally its just a person maybe announcing unshielding, then being queued up by two people before reshielding. I'm aware a few alliances do but to pretend this is anywhere near the norm for hopping and feels a bit disingenuous an assertion.

scottee

Not going to finish reading this thread. Only made it about 2 pages through.

If they're going to address shields, just go all the way. Now that people can choose an ending time that they're available, just eliminate shields altogether. The person who can fight the hardest wins.

reckless442

scottee wrote:

Not going to finish reading this thread. Only made it about 2 pages through.

If they're going to address shields, just go all the way. Now that people can choose an ending time that they're available, just eliminate shields altogether. The person who lucks out the most at the end wins.

FIFY

Unknown

DuckyV wrote:

Some of us actually enjoy the rush associated with shield hopping. I know I feel a huge sense of satisfaction when I can pull of a 3 match hop without getting hit. And if it's so unfun and stressful, why continue playing the game to begin with?

Honestly, this was the only fun part of PVP at all. I don't see how sitting out there getting your butt kicked for 8 hours is going to make the game more fun. Getting into the first place slot, taking wins for 2-3 points each while other players can nail you for 40 points every few minutes is way more stressful than shield hopping.

What PVP really needs is a max amount that a player can be attacked per hour. Then, at least players could fight off the hordes of people attacking them and get back to even. Shields are stupid in the first place. Let's pay money to not play the game we like so much!

Unknown

I know I'm in the minority but I welcome a change to shields.

Having a limit to the shields means a hop has to count. Now if a hop fails you can just try again 30 minutes later, there isn't all that much risk reward.

However I think making each shield have its own cool down period that makes sense would be better.

3 hour shield - 2
8 -6
24 -18


This also allows the player to play a little more with the time available to them to play the game. I shield out for 3 hours I have an hour wiggle room to make another hop.

I would also welcome changes to the targeting system. someone in 600 shouldn't be able to attack a 1300 player let alone a 2000.

I think 400 spread of points is reasonable. would have to test and tweak to find a balance. maybe 500 is better I dunno.

Also the risk reward structure would change considerably for attacking teams higher then you, . If I target someone for 50 points there is no way I should only lose 1 point. Risk needs to be added to the attack more then just having to use healthpacks for a dead team. This gives more reward for higher player lvls when someone wipes on them and adds more risk for low lvl snipers.

Unknown

Tonzil wrote:

For this to be a positive change in any way - limits need to be put up. I.E. you are not going to be hit 14 times while in a 2 minute battle because you have high points OR for example, the first 3 hits you take in say 5 minutes of each other counts towards points you lose AND points the hitter gains, but everything else within that range ONLY gives points to the winner, be it defensive or offensive wins. Nothing more obnoxious than losing upwards of 150 points in a 3 minute window...
That needs to be addressed as well.

I rallied at the end of an event and left myself unshielded for the last 15 minutes, just to see what would happen. I lost 450 points in 15 minutes and dropped from 7th to 65th place. That is just a broken game. There really need to be limits, 100-200 points per hour max.

Unknown

Dauthi wrote:

franckynight wrote:

Just askin.. Are you from phantron's family?

I'm not around often enough to understand the inside joke"

I'll help you on this one. Several players think that Phantron is either A.) an intentional troll, due to his extremely unthoughtful, illogical responses, or B.) A complete fool who knows no better.
Some people have gone so far as to ask Phantron to "just sit down and shut up!" but I can't find that post and for that I apologize.

I'm not saying that this is how I, personally, feel. Merely trying to help you understand the reference.

This may have been Francky's way of saying he disagrees with you.

I hope this helps to clarify matters. Peace be with you.

Dauthi

Brothanoomsy wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

franckynight wrote:

Just askin.. Are you from phantron's family?

I'm not around often enough to understand the inside joke"

I'll help you on this one. Several players think that Phantron is either A.) an intentional troll, due to his extremely unthoughtful, illogical responses, or B.) A complete fool who knows no better.
Some people have gone so far as to ask Phantron to "just sit down and shut up!" but I can't find that post and for that I apologize.

I'm not saying that this is how I, personally, feel. Merely trying to help you understand the reference.

This have been Francky's way of saying he disagrees with you.

I hope this helps to clarify matters. Peace be with you.

Oh, lol, Thank you for that.

Here is one of my fights for true healing, which didn't have the apocalyptic effects everyone arguing with me thought it would: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10426 . (just realized I agreed with Phantron on that one, I guess that doesn't help people thinking we aren't similar in some way ) Whatever, he was right in the end

Here is a classic one on nerfing 2 ap abilities that I contributed to. Can you believe people defended them? I still can't, they were completely broken by our standards yet the status quo couldn't let go : viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1187&start=60 . For newer players, when I say people are comparing him to Thor post nerf, this was before lazy Thor, enjoy!

Change tends to be good, and in the off chance it isn't, they fix it. This is what I have gotten while playing their game, and it has evolved ever since I started playing consistently.

lukewin

Dauthi wrote:

lukewin wrote:

Have to disagree with you. Some people, myself included, don't care about high scores. I play for placement, Top 25 if I'm lucky. Sure there will be more players to attack, but there will also be more players to attack us. Have you ever played in the last 15 minutes of a PVP? It is a bloodbath. The time that it takes you to win one match, you can lose a lot more of points that you can not recover. Now imagine that instead of that being limited to the last 15 minutes of a PVP, that it is now more spread out, since people are fighting to keep points that they earned and to make up for points that they lost. It is very frustrating to win a match and in that same time, lose multiple times the amount of points that you just earned.

Everyone will be lifting each other up though. You were always meant to be attacked in PVP, thus forcing you to play over the course of the 3 days. If everyone is forced to do this (and yes, play more than usual) then there will be more points in the pot, and the threshold at which you get attacked will be pushed up for everyone. This will be especially noticeable if the hardcore don't shield, but are able to gain more points gradually regardless.

Perhaps this is why D3 doesn't want to change progression rewards.

You keep saying everyone will be lifting each other up, but you aren't taking in to consideration that each person that is lifted up also means another person is being pushed down. So overall, it is not everyone lifting each other up, for higher pts overall, but the same points will be spread out. There may be people gaining more points, people losing more points, so the range might change, but the average will not. If you are forced to play over the course of the 3 days, then you are forcing people to not play, which weakens the pool. People that get x amount of pts for the time they put in are not going to play so much more to maintain x amount of pts.

I have to believe at this point that you are a troll. Since you are taking the time to address every post. That or you have plenty of free time and feel like responding/countering every post that you have conversed in. I don't mean to defame you by my belief, but that is my opinion. I would say that you are more like arktos than phantron, except you are shilling for the devs/pubs, as opposed to against them.

Spoit

Dauthi wrote:

Spoit wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

Finally, an end to shield hopping. Please continue to eliminate the parts of the game that are not fun D3! There are so many variables that I agree with D3 on seeing where this goes first too.

There is so much complaining that we won't have enough points to get to the high scores, but people aren't stopping to think that there will be more players to attack. Instead of shield hoppers virtually never being accessible, they will be sitting open most of the time with points to hand out.

How will this effect MPQ? It will mean to be competitive you will have to play more to offset lost points, but you won't lose points like there is a giant gash in your point totals since there will be a large player base with points to target. As long as there is an entire player base sitting unshielded with you, you won't lose that much points. I imagine attacks will be infrequent depending on your points vs roster, obviously 4* rosters will top out later while 1* will top out quicker. It will be hard for leaders to push leading totals, but as long as it is not impossible they will push point totals.

I think the next problem will be changing how others rubberband in PVP, because with this new style it will be a lot easier to join late and rubberband off of others hard work with little risk.

Regarding the 3 hour shield, it is obviously useful for shielding for the last few hours of an event after you top out your points. Before I shield hopped it is the only shield I used, and it is very useful. C'mon people...

Uh....what? There'd be way less targets to attack, since rather than hopping every couple hours, the high scorers can only hop 3 times every 8 hours, which will drastically reduce the trickle down of points.

Also, it'll make the whole 'coordinated hopping' thing the top alliances do even more important, since hitting those high point fights will be much more important if you're reducing the number of hops

This is assuming people will hop despite the massive cost, and that they can hop every 8 hours. Managing that will be pretty difficult with the whole life thing involved too. I don't doubt that some will be able to time it, but what if it isn't worth 525 points for 3 hops? I think for many people it won't be, especially in specific events, and that will increase the pool of available points.

But then lets think about how the new time difference will effect them. If you start hopping that early the top end of points able to be gained could increase from lets say 800 to 1k due to leaders pushing it while you sit for 8 hours. It will completely negate the point of them shielding if the pack passes them by in that time frame. It will be a big difference in hopping in the last hours to the last day 1/2.

I don't think anyone knows where this will go exactly, but I am happy they are experimenting with a way to get rid of shield hopping.

DuckyV wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

PVP is pretty important, and in order to do well you have to play an unfun and extremely stressful metagame called "shield hopping" that was in no way intended.

Some of us actually enjoy the rush associated with shield hopping. I know I feel a huge sense of satisfaction when I can pull of a 3 match hop without getting hit. And if it's so unfun and stressful, why continue playing the game to begin with?

As I said in the bolded, it wasn't intended. Nobody expected CMags to stay broken as he was forever, the gameplay people used him for was unintended and unfun, change was inevitable

lukewin wrote:

Have to disagree with you. Some people, myself included, don't care about high scores. I play for placement, Top 25 if I'm lucky. Sure there will be more players to attack, but there will also be more players to attack us. Have you ever played in the last 15 minutes of a PVP? It is a bloodbath. The time that it takes you to win one match, you can lose a lot more of points that you can not recover. Now imagine that instead of that being limited to the last 15 minutes of a PVP, that it is now more spread out, since people are fighting to keep points that they earned and to make up for points that they lost. It is very frustrating to win a match and in that same time, lose multiple times the amount of points that you just earned.

Everyone will be lifting each other up though. You were always meant to be attacked in PVP, thus forcing you to play over the course of the 3 days. If everyone is forced to do this (and yes, play more than usual) then there will be more points in the pot, and the thresh-hold at which you get attacked will be pushed up for everyone. This will be especially noticeable if the hardcore don't shield, but are able to gain more points gradually regardless.

Perhaps this is why D3 doesn't want to change progression rewards.

I'm not even sure where to start with this post ,so I'll work backwards

Once you pass like 500, point gains are largely zero sum (except at equal point values you generate maybe 1 point on net), so the only way to increase the point pool on the high end if to have people generate points by hitting shielded people, which for obvious reasons will happen a lot less often after the change. In order to get an equivalent effect in the pool of points, you'd probably need to increase the people under the diminishing return point by like, another order of magnitude.

The basis of your argument is that you're saying that people will stay unshielded at higher point values, correct? I'm pretty sure even if you left out the scarecrow-iest team (270 FT/xforce?) you'd still fall back to the equilibrium point of around 6-800 points fairly quickly, so my argument is that everyone above that would be shielded. And with this change, and this is the crux of my argument, people will be shielded for longer since they can only break 3 times in the 8 hour window (and I'm not convinced that most people will be buying the 24 hour ones for the 3rd hop).

And most importantly, because there is a capped on how many times people will be unshielded, the amount of times the high point people will be out would be drastically reduced, since they're hopping only 3 times in that 8 hour period, when currently they're probably hoping more often than that. This in turn results in a contraction of the point pool, since the points don't trickle down as much AND as often.

Compare this to the old situation where you'd get 3 hops in a slightly less than 9 hour window by using 3 3-hours (for 300 HP less). Incidentally, I'd be fine with the cooldowns if they were a more reasonable amount of time, like 2.5 hours for a 3 hour shield.

Dauthi

Spoit wrote:

Once you pass like 500, point gains are largely zero sum (except at equal point values you generate maybe 1 point on net), so the only way to increase the point pool on the high end if to have people generate points by hitting shielded people, which for obvious reasons will happen a lot less often after the change. In order to get an equivalent effect in the pool of points, you'd probably need to increase the people under the diminishing return point by like, another order of magnitude.

Thank you for responding to my post in an informational way rather than refer to me as a troll. The bolded is something I have never heard of, I always assumed attack/defender gain/loss values were static, though I haven't been in a top alliance who would attack eachother to test this either.

My question now is how much truth this holds, and what are the real values. Even 1 point gained per attack over hundreds of thousands of people is quite the gain globally.

lukewin wrote:

I have to believe at this point that you are a troll. Since you are taking the time to address every post... I would say that you are more like arktos than phantron, except you are shilling for the devs/pubs, as opposed to against them.

This is pretty rude and uncalled for. Yes, I do have a lot of time on my hands occasionally, and I enjoy spending it here sometimes when major events are taking place.

Unknown

A nerf to shield hopping? I don't need to read any posts in this thread, this is an awesome balance to the game. Coming right after Sentry and Hood balance, I'm really curious to see how things will work out. I am so hoping for transition players to be able to jump higher than just 600 points!

Thank you for this unexpected but pleasant change!

OneenO

You guys remember when shields were first introduced?

When you could queue people who were shielded and everyone just put bagman out. Since there was no skip tax you could just skip until you found the shielded teams. We all jumped over each other and got every prog reward.

Yeah! Lets go back to that.

Unknown

Dauthi wrote:

Change tends to be good, and in the off chance it isn't, they fix it. This is what I have gotten while playing their game, and it has evolved ever since I started playing consistently.

I agree with you about "change tends to be good". (still doesn't mean I agree with anything else, like CMag's being unfun).
Even Stan Lee the man himself said it, change is good.



What if it's not good? Well, let's change it again with better option. That's why D3P needs our feedback by creating this topic.

Unknown

Okin107 wrote:

A nerf to shield hopping? I don't need to read any posts in this thread, this is an awesome balance to the game. Coming right after Sentry and Hood balance, I'm really curious to see how things will work out. I am so hoping for transition players to be able to jump higher than just 600 points!

Thank you for this unexpected but pleasant change!

I agree entirely, including the not reading this topic part. I'm really glad people will finally stop hitting ridiculous high scores just for bragging rights, and then forcing the rest of the field to catch up to make progress. It sucks because I'd be totally fine with shield hopping if PvP had better progression awards and the inability to shield hop didn't hurt the transition players so much, but alas...

Unknown

Dauthi wrote:

Spoit wrote:

Once you pass like 500, point gains are largely zero sum (except at equal point values you generate maybe 1 point on net), so the only way to increase the point pool on the high end if to have people generate points by hitting shielded people, which for obvious reasons will happen a lot less often after the change. In order to get an equivalent effect in the pool of points, you'd probably need to increase the people under the diminishing return point by like, another order of magnitude.

Thank you for responding to my post in an informational way rather than refer to me as a troll. The bolded is something I have never heard of, I always assumed attack/defender gain/loss values were static, though I haven't been in a top alliance who would attack eachother to test this either.

My question now is how much truth this holds, and what are the real values. Even 1 point gained per attack over hundreds of thousands of people is quite the gain globally.

lukewin wrote:

I have to believe at this point that you are a troll. Since you are taking the time to address every post.

This is pretty rude and uncalled for. Yes, I do have a lot of time on my hands.

It's stunning that you've been here for over a year and didn't know that PvP was zero-sum past a certain point. Your underleveled chars must be manipulating your MMR such that you never get hit or something. Do you know how laddering works once you pass 800?

Lystrata

Hrm. As with other changes, I'd like to first note my appreciation for the fact they're acknowledging something 'isn't quite right' with the current system, and are looking for ways to improve the game overall. Secondly, I think there are two factors to consider here.

1) People get accustomed to their routine. It's human nature, and people don't like being disrupted from it. It's why clichés exist, why Hollywood blockbusters are repeatedly set to a 'tried and true' formula, why a stable work environment is vital to many, etc. Any time there's a hint of change to the game, the forum becomes super active with disgruntled posts (some valid, getting to that next). And this seems, in part, to simply be because a lot of people get used to playing X-style, and cannot comprehend/don't want to consider how to change their style. Not a criticism, refer to human nature. However, just because you're accustomed to something, doesn't make it optimal, fair, or even particularly logical (paying a game not to be able to play? Say wut?). So, sometimes changes are needed and people will, by their nature, resist. Not a great reason not to progress, to my mind.

2) However, when change is made, it needs to feel familiar. Sentry didn't cause outrage because the essence of the character wasn't really changed, just the speed. Time sharding caused outrage because it changed, in essence, how well you could potentially score (which had carry on effects). Here, they're keeping shields - familiar. But making them much, much more restricted - unfamiliar. So resistance will occur. The thing to consider is whether or not you're resisting because what's proposed is a bad idea, or because you're human and don't like being pushed from the familiar.

For what it's worth, here, I think it's a bit of both. Restricting shields is a good idea to me, so no complaints there, even if it'll mean altered game play. This is a logical step in moving the game forward - particularly as more players max out rosters, and the T5 literally becomes who can pay for it, rather than play for it. In contrast, making an 8 hour cool down seems like a terrible idea because it will adversely affect anyone who wants (for instance) to come home from work, play, shield spend some time with their family, play again a bit before bed, shield. This is an illogical step in punishing players who want to play and interact with the real world.

So. They're doin' good, but need to fine-tune the details, imo.

TL;DR: Overly philosophical rant. Change is good, but needs to be logical.

---

darthmental wrote:

if the devs actually implement 8 hour cool downs on 3 hour shields they all need to be shot.

What would be the point of a 3 hour shield???

*shrug*
Use them at the end of a PvP, to avoid getting caught in the final hours/minutes bloodbath? That's certainly the only time in any PvP when I use a shield.