Planned Updates To Shields - New Start Date

GrumpySmurf1002

Phantron wrote:

Not totally related to this, but can we get a change so that your opponent's point on retaliation actually reflects whatever point they have? I don't expect it to be up to the second but often you're seeing a score that has no bearing on reality. With shield hopping weakened it should be viable to climb high early and take a bunch of hits on purpose, only to retal at the end and then shield. However, since all the scores are likely depressed after this change, you can't be quite sure if that strong looking character at 700 point climbed his way to 1000 and shielded or if he never quite escaped the pack. Sure you can try to figure this out by coordinating with your alliance members in other brackets but is it too much to ask to know your opponent's score is at least accurate to within say, 5 minutes?

This is the R67 notes:

Default starting opponents in Versus play now always report the correct amount of "current points" they have.

Ducky

Dauthi wrote:

PVP is pretty important, and in order to do well you have to play an unfun and extremely stressful metagame called "shield hopping" that was in no way intended. Since I am forced to do this often, shield hopping is definitely a priority fix for me. I don't know why everyone wants to continue this, but there was a similar reaction with the removal of prologue healing. I think people just hate when the status quo changes at this point.

Some of us actually enjoy the rush associated with shield hopping. I know I feel a huge sense of satisfaction when I can pull of a 3 match hop without getting hit. And if it's so unfun and stressful, why continue playing the game to begin with?

Ducky

GrumpySmurf1002 wrote:

Phantron wrote:

Not totally related to this, but can we get a change so that your opponent's point on retaliation actually reflects whatever point they have? I don't expect it to be up to the second but often you're seeing a score that has no bearing on reality. With shield hopping weakened it should be viable to climb high early and take a bunch of hits on purpose, only to retal at the end and then shield. However, since all the scores are likely depressed after this change, you can't be quite sure if that strong looking character at 700 point climbed his way to 1000 and shielded or if he never quite escaped the pack. Sure you can try to figure this out by coordinating with your alliance members in other brackets but is it too much to ask to know your opponent's score is at least accurate to within say, 5 minutes?

This is the R67 notes:

Default starting opponents in Versus play now always report the correct amount of "current points" they have.

That's a reference to a bug where seed teems were showing up as worth more points than they were worth.

Unknown

I haven't finished reading through this whole thing, so some of what I'm typing may have already been written. That's ok. I get the feeling what we write here is more important for the devs to see, than for each other to see, and in that case, many voices saying the same thing might be helpful.

I know some alliance mates and I have talked about this and feel like a % based cool down would be more effective for us and our style of play* Something like 5/6 of the length for a cooldown.

That would mean that:
3 hours are available again after 2.5 hours.
8 hours - 6 hours and 40 minutes
24 hours - 20 hours

They could be adjusted to nicer numbers 3 = 2.5, 8 = 7, 24 = 22

If the cooldowns were simply the length of the shield, then PVP becomes the exact same thing many have been complaining about in PVE, i.e. playing at the exact right time if you want to do the best. That doesn't seem good.

Even with a cooldown less than the regular length, it's still tied to a schedule (meaning you can't really break after an hour if you've finished your real world commitments that made you shield up), but you at least have a window in which to reshield.

I can agree that the 0.1% of the metagame (and really, that's about all the forumites are...we're a very small, small bit of the game, even if we scream and shout the loudest and most often) that has degenerated into shield-hopping as a necessity, is a bit unpleasant. But I still like the ability to use a couple shields at my leisure and not have to worry that if I chose the wrong time length, I'm hosed, or forced into spending more - that creates feel bad situations in a game that we all quite enjoy playing.

* Note about my general play style: Not entirely relevant, but I typed it up and didn't want to delete it:

My main style of play - climb to some reasonable number of points in the first day or two. Usually whatever I can accomplish in a couple pushes with whatever health packs I have. Sit unshielded. Some 5-8 hours before the end of the pvp, climb up toward my intended goal (usually 900 minimum for my 250 token, but I'll make a rush for 1100 if there's a cover I want). Shield up with a 3 hour. If there are less than 6 hours left, wait until there are less than 3 left, break shield, do a fight or two, reshield. I'll usually do most pvps with 1 or 2 (sometimes none) 3 hour shields.

There are exceptions however.
In the recent one with 1st place reward, I used a total of 8 3-hour shields over the course of the last 7 hours, and probably 2-3 sets of boosts. I did take first though, and that was my first cover for her. My expenditures after counting the earned through placement, alliance, and progression rewards was roughly 600. Seemed a really good deal for me. For the person I beat out for that spot, they must have been rather upset. They'd been shielded for at least 24 hours, and had hopped along the way a few times. I just out-hopped at the end. Feel good moment for me, feel bad moment for them.

That pvp was very much an anomaly for me. I generally make an profit of at least 100 or so per pvp. Even with a shield or two.

Spoit

Dauthi wrote:

Finally, an end to shield hopping. Please continue to eliminate the parts of the game that are not fun D3! There are so many variables that I agree with D3 on seeing where this goes first too.

There is so much complaining that we won't have enough points to get to the high scores, but people aren't stopping to think that there will be more players to attack. Instead of shield hoppers virtually never being accessible, they will be sitting open most of the time with points to hand out.

How will this effect MPQ? It will mean to be competitive you will have to play more to offset lost points, but you won't lose points like there is a giant gash in your point totals since there will be a large player base with points to target. As long as there is an entire player base sitting unshielded with you, you won't lose that much points. I imagine attacks will be infrequent depending on your points vs roster, obviously 4* rosters will top out later while 1* will top out quicker. It will be hard for leaders to push leading totals, but as long as it is not impossible they will push point totals.

I think the next problem will be changing how others rubberband in PVP, because with this new style it will be a lot easier to join late and rubberband off of others hard work with little risk.

Regarding the 3 hour shield, it is obviously useful for shielding for the last few hours of an event after you top out your points. Before I shield hopped it is the only shield I used, and it is very useful. C'mon people...

Uh....what? There'd be way less targets to attack, since rather than hopping every couple hours, the high scorers can only hop 3 times every 8 hours, which will drastically reduce the trickle down of points.

Also, it'll make the whole 'coordinated hopping' thing the top alliances do even more important, since hitting those high point fights will be much more important if you're reducing the number of hops

wymtime

i am glad D3 is working on a CD for shields. To hot 1300 points with 2-3 shield hops will still exist but it will be less. It is true if you are willing to pay the HP you can score huge. here is the tweek that I would make. Only allow 3 shields per event. You can use 3 8 hour shields 3 3hr or 3 24 hour shields. Once you have used 3 you cannot shield again. This allows people to hop for 1100+ but still restricts people from the pay to win 2000 point PVPs. 800-900 points will still score very well in PVP. This will give a similar result to what the devs are looking for. As it is right now if you want to pay to win you put a 3hr, 8,hr, and 24 hr shield for 3 hops. D3 made it more expensive for 2 hops in a short time. Another possibl solution is if you let the shield expire there is no CD. This way players only get CD for breaking a shield?

lukewin

The most shields I have ever used in a PVP is 2 3 hr shields, so most of this doesn't even apply to me. But I still think the change is garbage. Below is my feedback.

"David wrote:

Moore"]
Some of the thinking behind this change:
"Shield hopping" is still possible but very limited. High-scoring is fun, but Shield hopping generally requires a large amount of out-of-game communication that not all players have access to. We asked ourselves this question: "Would you Shield hop if you didn't need to in order to reach a high score? If not, that's a sign that a change is probably needed."

It is still possible but very limited... to the people that are willing to buy all 3 types of shields. If hopping at the end of the event, you can buy a 3 hr, break, buy an 8 hr, break, buy a 24 hr break, no need to buy in that order. "Would you Shield hop if you didn't need to in order to reach a high score?..." You shield hop to reach the progression reward. If the progression reward wasn't at a high score, you wouldn't need to shield hop to get it. Want to eliminate a lot of the shield hopping? Lower the progression reward threshold.

"David wrote:

Moore"]
This change helps level the playing field. Players that don't have the Hero Points to spend on Shields, either through being in a top 100 Alliance or purchasing currency, will not need to worry about someone simply outspending them by using hundreds of Hero Points to Shield hop for a win.

So you sell ISO and HP, ISO to level guys, HP for shields and covers, but you don't want us to use the shields for their intended purposes? It will level the playing field by having everyone being miserable. I don't think any F2P players, myself included, are going to be placing higher in PVPs with this change implemented. "not need to worry about someone simply outspending them by using hundreds of Hero Points to Shield hop for a win." Really? I'm not worried about getting beat by a shield, I'm worried about getting beat by a wall of 166 opponents. They've already spent the hundreds of Hero Points either by purchase or time invested in the game, to get their guys to 166 / 270. Removing shield hopping means that they might still be playing, and crushing me under their nicer rosters to maintain the points that they are losing to attacks. At least when they are shielded, they can't crush me.

"David wrote:

Moore"]
Initially, we'll be keeping the scores needed to earn progression rewards the same while we test a few Versus Events and gather data. Over the last few months, we've seen a lot of variation in the number of players using lots of Shields in a single Event, and a lot of variation in the highest scores players reach, but very little variation in how much effort it takes to reach a particular progression reward. It's not clear at this point how much this change will affect the difficulty of earning progression rewards; it'll depend on what strategies people adopt in response to the change. We'll be watching how the difficulty changes and will make adjustments to the rewards after a few Events if necessary.

Of course there is variation in how many shields are used in a single event. Each event offers different rewards. Only Top 5 get 3 covers. In order to be Top 5, you have to compete against the Top 5. So if Top 5 are using a bunch of shields, you have to use a bunch of shields to stay competitive. I can tell you ahead of time what data you will gather. A lot less people will be getting the higher progression rewards. Not just because a lot of people gave up on the game, but because they are getting attacked faster than they can earn the points. I think the highest I have scored in a PVP has been offseason, in events where I put my own 3 guys in. So not a true PVP, and I don't think I have ever hit 900 points. I try to finish PVPs in the mid 600 range. Why? Because if I don't throw up a shield for the last 3 hours, I get knocked back down to the 400s / 500s, which is out of Top 100 range.

A lot of people have put up their feedback on why they are not fans of these upcoming changes. Now I have as well. I hope you actually read these, evaluate them, and consider not going forth with the proposed changes. If you do, I hope that you reconsider the changes and either make changes to your changes to a middle ground, or revert to how it was and fix one of the other main problems that most people have.

GothicKratos

I just want to point out that if the big button issue becomes "it's to hard to hit Progression Rewards" they can very easily tweak those numbers, as they have in the past.

lukewin

Dauthi wrote:

Finally, an end to shield hopping. Please continue to eliminate the parts of the game that are not fun D3! There are so many variables that I agree with D3 on seeing where this goes first too.

There is so much complaining that we won't have enough points to get to the high scores, but people aren't stopping to think that there will be more players to attack. Instead of shield hoppers virtually never being accessible, they will be sitting open most of the time with points to hand out.

How will this effect MPQ? It will mean to be competitive you will have to play more to offset lost points, but you won't lose points like there is a giant gash in your point totals since there will be a large player base with points to target. As long as there is an entire player base sitting unshielded with you, you won't lose that much points. I imagine attacks will be infrequent depending on your points vs roster, obviously 4* rosters will top out later while 1* will top out quicker. It will be hard for leaders to push leading totals, but as long as it is not impossible they will push point totals.

I think the next problem will be changing how others rubberband in PVP, because with this new style it will be a lot easier to join late and rubberband off of others hard work with little risk.

Regarding the 3 hour shield, it is obviously useful for shielding for the last few hours of an event after you top out your points. Before I shield hopped it is the only shield I used, and it is very useful. C'mon people...

Have to disagree with you. Some people, myself included, don't care about high scores. I play for placement, Top 25 if I'm lucky. Sure there will be more players to attack, but there will also be more players to attack us. Have you ever played in the last 15 minutes of a PVP? It is a bloodbath. The time that it takes you to win one match, you can lose a lot more of points that you can not recover. Now imagine that instead of that being limited to the last 15 minutes of a PVP, that it is now more spread out, since people are fighting to keep points that they earned and to make up for points that they lost. It is very frustrating to win a match and in that same time, lose multiple times the amount of points that you just earned.

Unknown

So... Schedule MPQ time... Shield.... Reschedule (oh **** set alarm!) hit a few battles, shield....

Wait- that's sixteen hours. Oh who needs to eat sleep or poop?

Work day- 8 hours (not sure about you but my teleporter is broken ATM so I actually have commute time)
Sleep (ideally) - 8 hours (ok yea I've woken up to grind PVE)
Rest of the day.... Sit and play MPQ? OH WAIT! Kids need to eat, errands need to get done, I kinda like to shower sometimes and possibly even (GASP!) socialize.

Those of is with jobs and life to tend to (yea we're the ones who spend the money here) are going to continue to spend money on a game that gives us no results? No possibility of a predicted outcome? Grind - Shield - Hope? That's the new strategy?

I fail to see how this improves the game. Shield hopping is a strategy not a cheat. We spend money to do it (still not getting why you want less money from me to please those who don't spend a dime!)

I may only have a minor in business but in my school- the goal was to make money, not risk losing my existing client base by taking away their benefits.

#blondheadtilt

Unknown

monkeyface756 wrote:

Here's my feedback. You are purposely trying to make this game less enjoyable almost every update. When you state you want to "level the playing field", what you are essentially saying is "thank you veterans for all your money and time, now screw you we want to reward players who are new at this". You guys are a bunch of communists that are attempting to control every facet pf the game instead of letting people enjoy it for what it is. So what if others score high by shield hopping? They are using their resources that they bought/earned at their will! Hope you guys think hard about this before you lost the 20% of your player base that actually pays you to play.

I completely agree with this post.

Your most valuable customer is the one who has already purchased your product. Keep them coming back.

You're scaring away your veteran customers by trying to convert prospective customers. Learn how to run a business.

Who cares if it's pay to play? So were arcades.

Dauthi

Spoit wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

Finally, an end to shield hopping. Please continue to eliminate the parts of the game that are not fun D3! There are so many variables that I agree with D3 on seeing where this goes first too.

There is so much complaining that we won't have enough points to get to the high scores, but people aren't stopping to think that there will be more players to attack. Instead of shield hoppers virtually never being accessible, they will be sitting open most of the time with points to hand out.

How will this effect MPQ? It will mean to be competitive you will have to play more to offset lost points, but you won't lose points like there is a giant gash in your point totals since there will be a large player base with points to target. As long as there is an entire player base sitting unshielded with you, you won't lose that much points. I imagine attacks will be infrequent depending on your points vs roster, obviously 4* rosters will top out later while 1* will top out quicker. It will be hard for leaders to push leading totals, but as long as it is not impossible they will push point totals.

I think the next problem will be changing how others rubberband in PVP, because with this new style it will be a lot easier to join late and rubberband off of others hard work with little risk.

Regarding the 3 hour shield, it is obviously useful for shielding for the last few hours of an event after you top out your points. Before I shield hopped it is the only shield I used, and it is very useful. C'mon people...

Uh....what? There'd be way less targets to attack, since rather than hopping every couple hours, the high scorers can only hop 3 times every 8 hours, which will drastically reduce the trickle down of points.

Also, it'll make the whole 'coordinated hopping' thing the top alliances do even more important, since hitting those high point fights will be much more important if you're reducing the number of hops

This is assuming people will hop despite the massive cost, and that they can hop every 8 hours. Managing that will be pretty difficult with the whole life thing involved too. I don't doubt that some will be able to time it, but what if it isn't worth 525 points for 3 hops? I think for many people it won't be, especially in specific events, and that will increase the pool of available points.

But then lets think about how the new time difference will effect them. If you start hopping that early the top end of points able to be gained could increase from lets say 800 to 1k due to leaders pushing it while you sit for 8 hours. It will completely negate the point of them shielding if the pack passes them by in that time frame. It will be a big difference in hopping in the last hours to the last day 1/2.

I don't think anyone knows where this will go exactly, but I am happy they are experimenting with a way to get rid of shield hopping.

DuckyV wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

PVP is pretty important, and in order to do well you have to play an unfun and extremely stressful metagame called "shield hopping" that was in no way intended.

Some of us actually enjoy the rush associated with shield hopping. I know I feel a huge sense of satisfaction when I can pull of a 3 match hop without getting hit. And if it's so unfun and stressful, why continue playing the game to begin with?

As I said in the bolded, it wasn't intended. Nobody expected CMags to stay broken as he was forever, the gameplay people used him for was unintended and unfun, change was inevitable. I don't see how winning hinging on not being attacked during a hop or losing a hop is not stressful. Your wins essentially are coming down to 3 games with luck mixed in. When your chances of doing well are limited to a small amount of tries, stress levels go up. It's the same reason tests in school are stressful, they are few and important. Now imagine a test but you have luck mixed in too...

lukewin wrote:

Have to disagree with you. Some people, myself included, don't care about high scores. I play for placement, Top 25 if I'm lucky. Sure there will be more players to attack, but there will also be more players to attack us. Have you ever played in the last 15 minutes of a PVP? It is a bloodbath. The time that it takes you to win one match, you can lose a lot more of points that you can not recover. Now imagine that instead of that being limited to the last 15 minutes of a PVP, that it is now more spread out, since people are fighting to keep points that they earned and to make up for points that they lost. It is very frustrating to win a match and in that same time, lose multiple times the amount of points that you just earned.

Everyone will be lifting each other up though. You were always meant to be attacked in PVP, thus forcing you to play over the course of the 3 days. If everyone is forced to do this (and yes, play more than usual) then there will be more points in the pot, and the threshold at which you get attacked will be pushed up for everyone. This will be especially noticeable if the hardcore don't shield, but are able to gain more points gradually regardless.

Perhaps this is why D3 doesn't want to change progression rewards.

darthmental

if the devs actually implement 8 hour cool downs on 3 hour shields they all need to be shot.

What would be the point of a 3 hour shield??? After 3 hours you would be smoked for 5 hours till you could shield again.

Within the current system, it is a not serious grind fest and you can go at your own pace. In the proposed system you need to be winning matches furiously to try and make up for the points you are losing. Now that would be stressful.

The cool downs need to be a percentage of the actual shield time.

Do the right thing for the right reason.

franckynight

Dauthi wrote:

PVP is pretty important, and in order to do well you have to play an unfun and extremely stressful metagame called "shield hopping" that was in no way intended. Since I am forced to do this often, shield hopping is definitely a priority fix for me. I don't know why everyone wants to continue this, but there was a similar reaction with the removal of prologue healing. I think people just hate when the status quo changes at this point.

Just askin.. Are you from phantron's family?

Unknown

"David wrote:

Moore"]
• This change helps level the playing field. Players that don't have the Hero Points to spend on Shields, either through being in a top 100 Alliance or purchasing currency, will not need to worry about someone simply outspending them by using hundreds of Hero Points to Shield hop for a win.

Thanks for reading. Your feedback is welcomed.

Okay,... If you want to monkey with the shield system, how about adding a 12 hour shield instead of having to jump from an 8 hour shield to a 24 hour shield. My day generally lasts about 11-12 hours, so I have to either buy a 300hp shield, several smaller shields, or just take the loss on points because I don't have access to my equipment during the day.

Instead, you choose this? And under the guise of helping players without the ability or desire to purchase hp to use for shield-hopping? Let's take a gander at the logistics of this theory you propose....

Now, instead of 75 hp for a 3 hour shield, we will have to spend 200 hp for each Health pack in a much shorter time span than 3 hours. Because we must stay on offense to counteract the loss of points from you crippling the way we can use our defense. Staying on the attack, or "playing on through", requires Health. Which is FAR more expensive than a shield.
Do you suggest, to counteract the need for health packs, (which we will need due to our inability to use defensive shields) we purchase duplicate characters? Or deepen our rosters? What then, would you suggest to the dedicated player who desires to succeed and rise above the average(casual) players? Shall we then resign ourselves to the status quo?

Why have rewards for first place if you want us all to be equal? Why not just start handing out participation medals?

Tell me again about how this will save the players' money and level the playing field for everyone?

May I please have my participation medal?

Ludaa

Progression rewards will be affected, but placing well seems to have an even more dire future, no?

Won't this create an even larger zombie horde fighting for top 25/50/100? The only way out is to adopt a more costly and inconvenient shield strategy...or buy covers for the new hotness.

Unknown

Dauthi wrote:

As I said in the bolded, it wasn't intended. Nobody expected CMags to stay broken as he was forever, the gameplay people used him for was unintended and unfun, change was inevitable

CMags unfun?

Unknown

Dauthi. This is not directly related to the OP but do you have a max 3* roster or higher?

Unknown

For this to be a positive change in any way - limits need to be put up. I.E. you are not going to be hit 14 times while in a 2 minute battle because you have high points OR for example, the first 3 hits you take in say 5 minutes of each other counts towards points you lose AND points the hitter gains, but everything else within that range ONLY gives points to the winner, be it defensive or offensive wins. Nothing more obnoxious than losing upwards of 150 points in a 3 minute window...
That needs to be addressed as well.

reckless442

gobstopper wrote:

Dauthi wrote:

As I said in the bolded, it wasn't intended. Nobody expected CMags to stay broken as he was forever, the gameplay people used him for was unintended and unfun, change was inevitable

CMags unfun?

How dare you actually enjoy controlling the board and minimizing damage by preventing the AI from getting turns? I found nothing cooler than taking out a 12k enemy in only one or two turns. That took real strategy and effort.

Speaking of CMags. Remember how level 395s were added because Spidey and CMags were so broken? How long has it been since the nerf and I'm still seeing regular 395s in PVE -- including my last six nodes of Gauntlet.

Maybe that's why I don't have faith in the Devs' promise to "fix" things after this shield "test." Losing more points than you can gain in PVP was a problem long before shields -- and will be exacerbated by the fact that higher scorers are now visible to an even greater range of attackers than they were back then. That the Devs have not included a possible solution to those issues while making this change with shields only highlights how poorly devised this idea is.