Planned Updates To Shields - New Start Date

David [Hi-Fi] Moore

**** Update ****
This is Will over at Demiurge. Thanks for all the feedback.

We had hoped to make this change during the off-season, before Season IX, but we couldn't get the latest update through first-party certification in time. We initially made the decision to get cooldowns into the game as soon as possible because the negative feedback about the very high scores that repeated shield use allows was so strong.

But we're hearing that you'd rather not have this change land in the middle of a season, so we've decided not to introduce shield cooldowns until the end of Season IX. The off-season events between Season IX and X will be their first appearance, to give you a chance to play with them and work out new strategies before the start of the next season. (This will mean we wait a little longer before recalibrating the progression rewards, since the off-season events often have unusual scoring patterns.)

I also wanted to respond to some of the questions & concerns you've raised.

* Some folks have asked why the cooldown on the 3 hour shield is 8 hours instead of 3 (or less). A cooldown that short would mean that the best way to get the most shields for the fewest Hero Points is to come back and play every 3 (or less) hours, through the night. That's not an ideal situation.

* Some suggestions involve getting rid of shields or the reasons why they exist. Our aim isn't to get rid of shields - the experience of breaking a shield, biting your nails as you beat a fight as fast as you can, and deciding whether to dare go for another win or shield up is the source of the best adrenaline rush in MPQ for many folks. The thing we're putting a lid on is the number of points that can come from using shields over and over. We still expect that players that use shields well will have an advantage over those who don't - but we're aiming for things to be more about the strategy of when to break a shield, when to re-shield, and how long to stay vulnerable, instead of the top of the leaderboards being decided by the raw number of shields you're willing to use.

* Sorry for the ambiguity of the term "shield hopping" in the original post. Different folks here on the forums, and even different folks on the Marvel Puzzle Quest team, mean different things by it. The kind of thing I think of when I hear the term doesn't rely on any out-of-game communication - for other folks, it brings to mind the strategies that have let players break 3000 points, which do require coordination. We shouldn't have used the term in the announcement; sorry about that.

* I've heard some questions in the thread about how this change will interact with the ability to choose your end time. Folks are concerned that, depending on the end time, the number of high-scoring players around makes it easier or harder to score points. While some end times tend to have much higher top scores than others, the differences in how hard it is to earn points are pretty modest for most players. The difference in scores at the top of the leaderboards is mostly from a greater proportion of high-scoring players choosing particular end times. I want to share with you some of the data that shows that.

One of the ways to measure the difficulty of getting a particular score is how many battles it takes to get there. Here are the average number of battles that people fought to end a recent event with particular scores, arranged in order of end time:

600-700: 35 / 33 / 32 / 32 / 33
700-800: 37 / 35 / 35 / 36 / 35
800-900: 38 / 41 / 37 / 37 / 37

From here on out the sample sizes can get small, and bounce around a lot depending on what event you're looking at. We also start to see a difference in the makeup of the players reaching these scores - in the last end time, the top scorers are significantly better coordinated, with better teams, allowing them to get to the top in fewer battles and stay there.

900-1000: 43 / 42 / 43 / 40 / 37
1000-1100: 47 / 46 / 42 / 45 / 40
1100-1200: 46 / 51 / 43 / 48 / 39
1200-1300: 50 / 65 / 40 / 55 / 48

Note that people are getting better progression rewards than these numbers might indicate for fighting this many matches - this is the score players ended with, not their peak score.

The average scores for each of the end times:

348 / 358 / 355 / 356 / 333

and the average score required to break the top 5:

951 / 864 / 1057 / 1050 / 1249

Much higher top scores in that last end time (though the average is lower due to people joining close to the end of the event), but not until somewhere around the 950-1000 mark do we see a difference in how many battles it takes to get a particular score. It's possible that picking the right end time could be helpful to the highest scorers in the most competitive alliances (it's hard to control for their other advantages enough to be sure), but it's not making a difference outside of the top ~10 alliances.

* To restate something that was in the announcement: the proportion of people reaching various progression rewards in Versus is about right currently, and if it's necessary to change the point at which rewards are given out to keep that the same (there are good odds it will be, but it's impossible to predict exactly how behavior will change as a result of cooldowns), we plan to do that.


**** Original message from Hi-Fi (with the start date updated) ****

Greetings,

Coming up at the end of the current season, we are planning to make some changes to Shields.

Shields may now have cooldowns depending on the Event. The cooldown is displayed below the amount of time the Shield lasts. Specifically, after you purchase a Shield, there's a cooldown period (8 hours) before you can buy another Shield of the same duration in the same Event.

The plan is for this change to go live during the off-season between Season IX and Season X, on January 5.

Some of the thinking behind this change:

• "Shield hopping" is still possible but very limited. High-scoring is fun, but Shield hopping generally requires a large amount of out-of-game communication that not all players have access to. We asked ourselves this question: "Would you Shield hop if you didn't need to in order to reach a high score? If not, that's a sign that a change is probably needed." • This change helps level the playing field. Players that don't have the Hero Points to spend on Shields, either through being in a top 100 Alliance or purchasing currency, will not need to worry about someone simply outspending them by using hundreds of Hero Points to Shield hop for a win. • Initially, we'll be keeping the scores needed to earn progression rewards the same while we test a few Versus Events and gather data. Over the last few months, we've seen a lot of variation in the number of players using lots of Shields in a single Event, and a lot of variation in the highest scores players reach, but very little variation in how much effort it takes to reach a particular progression reward. It's not clear at this point how much this change will affect the difficulty of earning progression rewards; it'll depend on what strategies people adopt in response to the change. We'll be watching how the difficulty changes and will make adjustments to the rewards after a few Events if necessary.

Thanks for reading. Your feedback is welcomed.

Unknown

Reaching 1300 is going to be considerably harder now but I suspect it was always too easy to get there. I do worry if we'll need to end up having to coordinate which time slices to make an attempt at 1300 in the future. I have no problem if the players, as a community, is supposed to do something extra to try to hit 1300 and that it's not something you can do every event, but with time slices now this may prove to be too hard. I think it's fair for people to post like: "Red Thor at 1300! Everyone play hard and grind points so more people can hit it!" But add "and everyone pick the same time slice" is a bit too much.

Unknown

Um... why?

Is there even a purpose to a 3 hour shield that you can't buy again for 8 hours?

Unknown

Lerysh wrote:

Um... why?

Is there even a purpose to a 3 hour shield that you can't buy again for 8 hours?

In the last 3 hours of the event? That's the most common type I use if I use any.

Ryz-aus

I love this change - shield hopping has always felt pay-to-win.

Cool down seems a bit long - I can understand making it 4+ hrs or a bit more to eliminate hopping on 3 hour shields, but if someone throws up an 8 hr shield (for overnight, or their work day, etc.) they would be hurt by breaking it early at all. Making "don't play" an incentive is going to be a danger.

Progression rewards will probably have to come down some, but waiting to see the change in scoring seems reasonable to me.

Ducky

So the way I read this, you can still shield hop (sort of), just only every 8 hours and it becomes a LOT more expensive. You just have to do it using a 3hr, 8hr, then 24hr shield.

Where there is a will to score high, people will still do it regardless of the price.

Unknown

Ryz-aus wrote:

I love this change - shield hopping has always felt pay-to-win.

Cool down seems a bit long - I can understand making it 4+ hrs or a bit more to eliminate hopping on 3 hour shields, but if someone throws up an 8 hr shield (for overnight, or their work day, etc.) they would be hurt by breaking it early at all. Making "don't play" an incentive is going to be a danger.

Progression rewards will probably have to come down some, but waiting to see the change in scoring seems reasonable to me.

They seriously need to add an option of 'buy an extra shield' while you're shielded because otherwise the timing for an 8 hour shield expiring is going to be quite painful.

Dayv

I think we'll see more players wait for the last day to do any significant climbing.

mags1587

I am also questioning the 8 hour cool down on a 3 hour shield. Wouldn't it make more sense to have the cool down match the length of the shield?

IamTheDanger

They said that in the test, it is set to 8 hours. Not that it will be 8 hours when released. They might still change it before release. I agree that this can be a good change, but 8 hour cool down is a bit long.

Ducky

DayvBang wrote:

I think we'll see more players wait for the last day to do any significant climbing.

I already start events during the last 3-4 hours. This only makes me want to stick to that strategy.

Ryz-aus

JCTthe3rd81 wrote:

They said that in the test, it is set to 8 hours. Not that it will be 8 hours when released. They might still change it before release. I agree that this can be a good change, but 8 hour cool down is a bit long.

Whether they will change it is hopefully based on feedback, so people who disagree with it should post that along with why they think it should be changed.

Unknown

DayvBang wrote:

I think we'll see more players wait for the last day to do any significant climbing.

That's not going to work assuming they indeed settle on an 8 hour CD which pretty much takes shield hopping out as a viable strategy except for the last 100 points. To hit 1300 what you need is to have a lot of people already sitting at 1000 and the only way to get there is by playing a lot because even around 1000 you probably generate 1 point for every game you play, as in someone will hit you for +25 and you lose -24 and while that certainly doesn't matter to you on the receiving end, in the grand scheme of things this is what puts the points in the pool in the 1000+ range now that shield hopping isn't a viable source of point generation. If you work backwards from an ELO model every 10 guys with 900 means there should be a guy with 1300. Now the ELO model totally breaks down for MPQ, so let's say it's off by a factor of 10 so you need 100 guys with 900 to support 1 guy with 1300 (either he has Thor + X Force + whatever, or everyone agreed to not hit him), but that's still doable as long as the guy with 1300 eventually gives back his points. Now, if that guy instead shielded at 1300, then the points end with his shield too, as the remaining 99 guys with 900 most likely cannot support another guy with 1300 no matter what because after the first guy bailed on you people will stop going along with the plan.

HailMary

The current top-end meta involves shieldhopping coupled with out-of-game coordination among alliance-scale or extra-alliance-scale groups of players, but shieldhopping itself doesn't require significant out-of-game coordination. You'll be spending a bit more Iso searching for targets without coordination, but shieldhopping is still quite viable. Coordinating within a single alliance is still quite viable, and that can be done (though I wouldn't recommend it) using only in-game alliance chat.

I assume that the intended use of shields is to allow people to step away from the game for hours at a time without losing huge amounts of points. However, a fixed 8hr cooldown for all shield types is bizarre. If you're playing before dinner, and want to pick it back up after dinner, you're going to pop a 3hr shield, because you hopefully aren't eating dinner for 4 hours straight. After dinner, if you want to climb some more and chew through your fresh healthpacks, you're essentially forced to pop an 8hr shield or a 24h shield, since there's a 5-hour delay between a 3hr shield expiration and the earliest possible next use of a 3hr shield. That doesn't make sense.

Of course, giving the 3hr shields a 2.5-hour cooldown would merely slow shieldhopping down a bit: hopping every 2.5 hours is slower than hopping every 30 minutes, but a dedicated hopper will still get a large number of hops in. I suppose the specific form that a more viable alternative takes would depend on what kind(s) of shieldhopping you're trying to nerf:
- "lazy" shieldhoppers who might pop 1 3hr shield at T-7hr, hop at T-5hr into another 3hr shield, and hop at T-2hr to shield to the end. Those who end on a 8hr shield also fall into this category.
- gung-ho hoppers (gung-hoppers?) who hop for pretty much the entire second half the event, every 1-2 hours when they're awake.
- bejesus hoppers who pretty consistently spend 2K-ish on shields per event.

With independent 8hr cooldowns per shield type, the new hop-maximizing strategy would be: pop a 3hr shield, hop after 2-3 hrs, pop an 8hr shield, hop after 3 hrs, pop a 24h shield, hop after 2-3 hrs, rinse, repeat. Players can still outspend other players to hop more for higher scores.

If you really want to nerf the current top-end shieldhopping meta, limiting the total number of shields that players are allowed to use per PVP would be more effective in general, and less awkward for the non-hoppers who just want to step away from the game without losing massive points. Of course, that comes with its own set of issues.

P.S. - I hope the shield-cooldown test begins between Seasons. That MMR test was already off-Season and it still... was not received well. Testing/implementing something like this mid-Season...

lokiagentofhotness

So if you have a squishy roster and rely on shields to you know, keep that marginal lead that even keeps you in the top 25 you're basically screwed?

Unknown

I think the 8 hour is chosen becuase it assumes if you did a 3 hour shield and then needed to extend it later you could've just bought an 8 hour shield, but this doesn't account for the fact that things may change from the plan. I'm not necessarily thinking about shield hopping when I put a 3 hour shield. Sure, I might as well do it at the end if I'm available and get the full use out of my 75 HP, but it's not always the #1 priority. It's more like I put down my 3 hour shield with 5 hours left and then in 3 hours I can gauge whether I can just shield the rest of the way and not even shield hop, do a shield hop, or change my plan completely because everyone suddenly gained 500 points in 3 hours. Now you can't do any of that option because you can't put up a new shield, so I guess all you can do is buy an 8 hour shield and maybe break it at the very end. I'd like to have at least the option of extending my shield which is how I effectively used my 3 hour shields at times (I'll probably do a single game and then shield up just because the first game is almost free, but shield hopping isn't my goal here). Here, I'm breaking the shield mostly so that I can apply a new one, not because getting another 40 points in a single game is totally going to put me in a dominant position in my bracket, and I think players should have the option to extend their existing shield at any given time if shield usage is now on CD.

Unknown

Here's my feedback. You are purposely trying to make this game less enjoyable almost every update. When you state you want to "level the playing field", what you are essentially saying is "thank you veterans for all your money and time, now screw you we want to reward players who are new at this". You guys are a bunch of communists that are attempting to control every facet pf the game instead of letting people enjoy it for what it is. So what if others score high by shield hopping? They are using their resources that they bought/earned at their will! Hope you guys think hard about this before you lost the 20% of your player base that actually pays you to play.

mags1587

My issue with the 8 hour cooldown is the times I tend to play. I often play at lunchtime at work, put up a three hour shield, then approximately 3 hours later after work, push again until my health packs run out, then throw up a shield again. Often another 3 hour shield because of the end time I've chosen or because I'm going to keep playing after my health packs regenerate.

So, if there's an 8 hour cooldown on shields of the same type, then basically I won't be able to play on that schedule anymore unless I buy the 8 hour and 24 hour shields; spending more HP than I normally would.

I think an 8 hour cooldown really kills the usefulness of the 3 hour shield except when it's used at the very end of the event.

Unknown

Lol I think its cheaper to buy covers instead of putting a 3 hr then 8 hr then 24 hr shields continously for shield hopping to reach the progression rewards

NorthernPolarity

"David wrote:

Moore"]
• This change helps level the playing field. Players that don't have the Hero Points to spend on Shields, either through being in a top 100 Alliance or purchasing currency, will not need to worry about someone simply outspending them by using hundreds of Hero Points to Shield hop for a win.

I don't see how this is true at all. Now instead of the X-Men paying for a shield every hour, they're going to pay for a shield every 8 hours now? This does nothing to help the people who don't have the HP to spend on shields, all it does is even the playing field to you spending a maximum of however many shield cds can fit in a PvP. I'm willing to see how the changes play out, but I don't see this point being improved on in any meaningful way.

Unknown

Can you clarify this reasoning: "Would you Shield hop if you didn't need to in order to reach a high score? If not, that's a sign that a change is probably needed."

The answer is obviously no, but it doesn't follow that changing shields is needed. If you truly wanted to limit the need to shield hop, wouldn't changing the laddering system be the logical starting point? We shield not because we enjoy the nickel-and-dime freemium model but because above a certain threshold the points gained over time becomes negative.

Why do you care about leveling the playing field between those that choose to spend $ and those that do not? Why shouldn't someone who buys shields gain an advantage over someone who doesn't? Yes, it is P2W but that is what you sign up for when you play a competitive microtrans game with no cosmetic elements. Why purposely undermine one stream of revenue? Are you going to make it up by releasing covers at a faster rate, putting more pressure on health pack purchases, or, preferably, adding cosmetics?