Planned Updates To Shields - New Start Date

24567…21

Comments

  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    gobstopper wrote:
    Can you clarify this reasoning: "Would you Shield hop if you didn't need to in order to reach a high score? If not, that's a sign that a change is probably needed."

    The answer is obviously no, but it doesn't follow that changing shields is needed. If you truly wanted to limit the need to shield hop, wouldn't changing the laddering system be the logical starting point? We shield not because we enjoy the nickel-and-dime freemium model but because above a certain threshold the points gained over time becomes negative.

    Why do you care about leveling the playing field between those that choose to spend $ and those that do not? Why shouldn't someone who buys shields gain an advantage over someone who doesn't? Yes, it is P2W but that is what you sign up for when you play a competitive microtrans game with no cosmetic elements. Why purposely undermine one stream of revenue? Are you going to make it up by releasing covers at a faster rate, putting more pressure on health pack purchases, or, preferably, adding cosmetics?

    The only conceivable reason why they would go for this change is that shield hopping is making them a ton less money than newbies buying cover packs are. Think about it: if hopping made up 30% of their revenue, do you really think they'd change it? Cover packs must make up most of their revenue. They have incentive to make PvP better for newbies because that would entice them to buy cover packs, which gets them more money than the newbies being screwed while vets continue to hop. Just goes to show you how little of an impact the end-game PvP vets actually have on their revenue streams.
  • fmftint
    fmftint Posts: 3,653 Chairperson of the Boards
    NorthernPolarity wrote:
    gobstopper wrote:
    Can you clarify this reasoning: "Would you Shield hop if you didn't need to in order to reach a high score? If not, that's a sign that a change is probably needed."

    The answer is obviously no, but it doesn't follow that changing shields is needed. If you truly wanted to limit the need to shield hop, wouldn't changing the laddering system be the logical starting point? We shield not because we enjoy the nickel-and-dime freemium model but because above a certain threshold the points gained over time becomes negative.

    Why do you care about leveling the playing field between those that choose to spend $ and those that do not? Why shouldn't someone who buys shields gain an advantage over someone who doesn't? Yes, it is P2W but that is what you sign up for when you play a competitive microtrans game with no cosmetic elements. Why purposely undermine one stream of revenue? Are you going to make it up by releasing covers at a faster rate, putting more pressure on health pack purchases, or, preferably, adding cosmetics?

    The only conceivable reason why they would go for this change is that shield hopping is making them a ton less money than newbies buying cover packs are. Think about it: if hopping made up 30% of their revenue, do you really think they'd change it? Cover packs must make up most of their revenue. They have incentive to make PvP better for newbies because that would entice them to buy cover packs, which gets them more money than the newbies being screwed while vets continue to hop. Just goes to show you how little of an impact the end-game PvP vets actually have on their revenue streams.
    more realistically it will force the sale of 8/24 hour shields since each shield duration has its own cool down.
  • Beast1970
    Beast1970 Posts: 421 Mover and Shaker
    A portion of the reason people need to shield hop is the imbalance in points gained vs points lost, especially over 900-1000. I hop because if I don't and I try for more than about 3 matches over 900 points, I am pretty much guaranteed to lose somewhere between 100-200 points in the time it takes me to win 25. Without changing this ratio, the game will start to resemble a bucket of crabs. I would love to remain unshielded and fight my way through if it were possible to remain even a little to the positive, but with the current system it definitely is not remotely feasible.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    NorthernPolarity wrote:
    gobstopper wrote:
    Can you clarify this reasoning: "Would you Shield hop if you didn't need to in order to reach a high score? If not, that's a sign that a change is probably needed."

    The answer is obviously no, but it doesn't follow that changing shields is needed. If you truly wanted to limit the need to shield hop, wouldn't changing the laddering system be the logical starting point? We shield not because we enjoy the nickel-and-dime freemium model but because above a certain threshold the points gained over time becomes negative.

    Why do you care about leveling the playing field between those that choose to spend $ and those that do not? Why shouldn't someone who buys shields gain an advantage over someone who doesn't? Yes, it is P2W but that is what you sign up for when you play a competitive microtrans game with no cosmetic elements. Why purposely undermine one stream of revenue? Are you going to make it up by releasing covers at a faster rate, putting more pressure on health pack purchases, or, preferably, adding cosmetics?

    The only conceivable reason why they would go for this change is that shield hopping is making them a ton less money than newbies buying cover packs are. Think about it: if hopping made up 30% of their revenue, do you really think they'd change it? Cover packs must make up most of their revenue. They have incentive to make PvP better for newbies because that would entice them to buy cover packs, which gets them more money than the newbies being screwed while vets continue to hop. Just goes to show you how little of an impact the end-game PvP vets actually have on their revenue streams.
    You're right, that makes sense. Too bad they can't be more transparent about the underlying reasons, and are hellbent on maintaining their overcosted casino business model.
  • FaustianDeal
    FaustianDeal Posts: 760 Critical Contributor
    The 8-hour cooldown on a 3-hour shield is a little silly. "It slows down shield-hopping," sure. But doesn't it take ~2.5 hours for my 5 health packs to grow back? I always thought there was an obvious synergy/coordination there. I can pick up a 3 hour shield my shield will be expiring right around the time I have fresh health packs and could be ready to go again. That is silly/

    I have also, on ****-tacular occasions bought an 8-hour shield because I have a 5-hour stretch of work time I am trying to protect; after which I might have a good hour of time to play followed by a desire to have a 6-hour sleep window. Or I want to shield to sleep, play in the morning, and then shield again for my workday, and then play after work?

    I will now no longer be able to chain 2 8-hour shields together protect myself for a periods of work followed by sleep?
  • NorthernPolarity
    NorthernPolarity Posts: 3,531 Chairperson of the Boards
    fmftint wrote:
    NorthernPolarity wrote:
    gobstopper wrote:
    Can you clarify this reasoning: "Would you Shield hop if you didn't need to in order to reach a high score? If not, that's a sign that a change is probably needed."

    The answer is obviously no, but it doesn't follow that changing shields is needed. If you truly wanted to limit the need to shield hop, wouldn't changing the laddering system be the logical starting point? We shield not because we enjoy the nickel-and-dime freemium model but because above a certain threshold the points gained over time becomes negative.

    Why do you care about leveling the playing field between those that choose to spend $ and those that do not? Why shouldn't someone who buys shields gain an advantage over someone who doesn't? Yes, it is P2W but that is what you sign up for when you play a competitive microtrans game with no cosmetic elements. Why purposely undermine one stream of revenue? Are you going to make it up by releasing covers at a faster rate, putting more pressure on health pack purchases, or, preferably, adding cosmetics?

    The only conceivable reason why they would go for this change is that shield hopping is making them a ton less money than newbies buying cover packs are. Think about it: if hopping made up 30% of their revenue, do you really think they'd change it? Cover packs must make up most of their revenue. They have incentive to make PvP better for newbies because that would entice them to buy cover packs, which gets them more money than the newbies being screwed while vets continue to hop. Just goes to show you how little of an impact the end-game PvP vets actually have on their revenue streams.
    more realistically it will force the sale of 8/24 hour shields since each shield duration has its own cool down.

    Demiurge isnt stupid when it comes to money. They arent going to risk making a huge change like this if it could significantly impact their revenue. I think youre crazy if you think this was another ploy to sell more shields, seeing as how onewhoknocjs spent like 5k hp pushing because there was no cd on shields. Forcing a cd and limiting the amount of shields your playerbase can buy is a terrible idea if that really was what was making you money.
  • SuperBatPoohMan
    SuperBatPoohMan Posts: 58
    u will understand all once u realize that every change is all about $$$$$
  • Spoit
    Spoit Posts: 3,441 Chairperson of the Boards
    JCTthe3rd81 wrote:
    They said that in the test, it is set to 8 hours. Not that it will be 8 hours when released. They might still change it before release. I agree that this can be a good change, but 8 hour cool down is a bit long.
    Have they ever actually changed stuff between announcing it and implementing it? They usually don't announce stuff until it's already in the patch queue
  • Pats0132
    Pats0132 Posts: 146 Tile Toppler
    Ok so here I go. I love this game to death and been playing it for a long time. I know some of the changes are needed but it seems like you put numbers 1-12 in a hat and pulled an 8 and decided that was the cool down period. I guess everyone wanted a rabbit instead oh well but this 8 hr makes absolutely no sense at all. I work a full time job and I sleep so unless your trying for a money grab you just made the 3 hr shield pointless. It's the beast of shields. You know what I mean. I play on my time and I don't mind curbing shield hopping since I only use 1-4 shields per event but 8 hrs seriously. Each shield should have its cool down or have a max number of hp that can be spent on an event. This would curb your shielding more. If I can only spend say 800 on an event people are going to rethink climbing. If not then have each shield have a percent for a cool down. I suggest 2 hrs for a 3 hr shield 6 for an 8 hr shield and 16 for a 24 hr shield. This would allow people like me to go to th gym shield go home make dinner etc and play some more and shield out with only 2 3 hr shields. This 8 hr one wouldn't allow me to do that since I have a job to do. Thanks again and looking forward to the next new character.
  • Pylgrim
    Pylgrim Posts: 2,332 Chairperson of the Boards
    Extremely surprised they actually went there. It's too early too judge the true impact, whether it's too little or too much but they are testing and I am impressed they addressed an issue that was actually generating money for them. Sadly, I expect this will generate them lots of heat among the forum crowd here.

    Still, I don't think there's a reason to make the cooldown 8 hours. The problem with shield-hopping is that it removes the best players from the "arena" since they are only unshielded and available a few minutes in total once they start climbing. Even a 1-hour cooldown would greatly impact that tactic without screwing players that have more legitimate uses for the shields.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    It obviously takes considerably less than 2500 HP to reach 1300 PvP rating right now for most players with an established roster. I suspect it's quite doable even for fairly weak rosters though you probably don't want to take the risk if your best character is OBW. This can't last because it defeats the underlying model where 4* are valued at 2500 HP (and far more than that if that's your first cover). From what I can tell the cost to get to 1300 is meant to probablistically cost close to 2500 HP. As in, you're not going to spend 2500 HP in any particular event trying to hit 1300 but it'd work out more like spending 600 HP has a 30% chance of hitting so on average it'd cost you 2000 HP to hit 1300 but you also get some additional mileage out of 600 HP (hopefully) via placement. The problem with this model is that if the chance is sufficiently low then people might not be trying at all and it is much harder to hit 1300 if no one else is trying to hit 1300 either.

    I doubt you'll see people doing shields every 8 hours to try to hit some crazy score because with the depressed score overall you won't need as much higher score and you should save yourself some headache with just a standard hardcore boosting playing followed by a 24 hour shield, and with the score being depressed as they are you won't be finding much on your shield hops either.
  • Dartmaster01
    Dartmaster01 Posts: 634 Critical Contributor
    Was about to buy some HP, big thanks for the announcement. Never again now that it's useless.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Shield nerf is a double edged sword.

    It will make the game more even but it will also require people to play more often to keep up with the losses in points.

    I only want to spend 1-2 hours playing PVP, don't make it a grind fest like PVE please... I have other things to do in my life.
  • mouser
    mouser Posts: 529 Critical Contributor
    "David wrote:
    Moore"]Some of the thinking behind this change:

    • This change helps level the playing field. Players that don't have the Hero Points to spend on Shields, either through being in a top 100 Alliance or purchasing currency, will not need to worry about someone simply outspending them by using hundreds of Hero Points to Shield hop for a win.

    Thanks for reading. Your feedback is welcomed.

    If I am understanding the change as desribed correctly then I disagree strongly with this statement. Shield hopping is still available with this change, just much more limited. Someone willing to buy 2-3 shield types will still easily hop past someone not buying shields assuming they have comparable rosters.

    I like the idea of doing something to reduce the impact of shield hopping, but this change doesn't level the playing field for players that aren't buying shields in my opinion.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    NorthernPolarity wrote:
    gobstopper wrote:
    Can you clarify this reasoning: "Would you Shield hop if you didn't need to in order to reach a high score? If not, that's a sign that a change is probably needed."

    The answer is obviously no, but it doesn't follow that changing shields is needed. If you truly wanted to limit the need to shield hop, wouldn't changing the laddering system be the logical starting point? We shield not because we enjoy the nickel-and-dime freemium model but because above a certain threshold the points gained over time becomes negative.

    Why do you care about leveling the playing field between those that choose to spend $ and those that do not? Why shouldn't someone who buys shields gain an advantage over someone who doesn't? Yes, it is P2W but that is what you sign up for when you play a competitive microtrans game with no cosmetic elements. Why purposely undermine one stream of revenue? Are you going to make it up by releasing covers at a faster rate, putting more pressure on health pack purchases, or, preferably, adding cosmetics?

    The only conceivable reason why they would go for this change is that shield hopping is making them a ton less money than newbies buying cover packs are. Think about it: if hopping made up 30% of their revenue, do you really think they'd change it? Cover packs must make up most of their revenue. They have incentive to make PvP better for newbies because that would entice them to buy cover packs, which gets them more money than the newbies being screwed while vets continue to hop. Just goes to show you how little of an impact the end-game PvP vets actually have on their revenue streams.
    Or... Because one of the frequently occurring complaints in the forums, even among veterans, is that the system where placing well depends almost entirely on navigating a stressful fever swamp of shield-hopping is a terrible system
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Parts I like:
    Players are forced to play more of the event.
    May make it easier to rank with only a few shields by lowering total scores of all players.
    Now top players might not seem as unreachable.

    Parts I don't like:
    Hurts players with limited schedules that rely on shield hopping to place.
    Makes it harder to hit progression rewards.
    Lower target players become more valuable, making the middle more of a grind.
    The threshold is WAY too low.
    If you break a 3 hr shield 1.5 hrs in, then you will have to buy an 8 hr shield to reshield. Waste of hp.

    Other comments:
    They should set the threshold to half of the shield length.
    OR,
    Perhaps they should offer variable shield lengths with a sliding scale
    1 hr - 30 hp
    2 hr - 55 hp
    3 hr - 75 hp
    4 hr - 95 hp
    5 hr - 110 hp
    6 hr - 125 hp
    7 hr - 140 hp
    8 hr - 150 hp
    ...

    Let's see how it works in practice and then complain about it, unless you're a shield hopper in which case you can have at it now.
  • daveomite
    daveomite Posts: 1,331 Chairperson of the Boards
    "David wrote:
    Moore"]

    Some of the thinking behind this change:
      • "Shield hopping" is still possible but very limited. High-scoring is fun, but Shield hopping generally requires a large amount of out-of-game communication that not all players have access to. We asked ourselves this question: "Would you Shield hop if you didn't need to in order to reach a high score? If not, that's a sign that a change is probably needed."

    False. This is simply not 100% accurate in any sense. Yes, there are groups of players who coordinate as "hop partners" - but there are a great deal who do not. Many times, I don't coordinate with anyone, just climb as I have tons of available targets. However, the time shards changed that greatly as now, if you wind up in a dead shard, you may be lucky to get 900 points WITH coordination as opposed to being able to easily get 1,300 in a different shard WITHOUT coordination.

    I do not see this new change as anything that will eliminate shield hopping and/or high scores - it just means that even a smaller sub set of the player base will spend even more on a greater number of more expensive shields in order to still reach higher point levels. For someone like me, I generally averaged 4-6 3hr shields in some events... and maybe one 8hr if I needed it. That was already pricey. Now though, it would be quite a bit more expensive if I wanted to try to have the same level of performance going forward.
    "David wrote:
    Moore"]

    The plan is for this change to go live with the start of the Versus Event on Friday, Dec. 19, 2014.

    With respect, that is another typical, poorly thought out plan to implement something of this magnitude. This is a fundamental change to how the game is played. Now, by announcing that change is coming, many of the high scoring players will most likely go hog wild with points in the pvp's before this change goes into effect, giving anyone who does that a wide birth lead that would be insurmountable by most of the rest of the playing field. Fortunately, I can be one to score a lot in the first PVP or so if I want/need to, but I don't see how that is fair for any of the masses you claim this is meant to help.
    "David wrote:
    Moore"]
      • This change helps level the playing field. Players that don't have the Hero Points to spend on Shields, either through being in a top 100 Alliance or purchasing currency, will not need to worry about someone simply outspending them by using hundreds of Hero Points to Shield hop for a win.

    You've already presented a major change with time sharding, which was also introduced mid season, and killed many players ability to keep up in their season brackets due to winding up in too many "dead" time shards. That did not "level the playing field" and neither will this.
  • Unknown
    Unknown
    Ryz-aus wrote:
    I love this change - shield hopping has always felt pay-to-win.

    If this game were not pay-to-win, the developers would not sell HP and ISO for cash. But they do, which sends a mixed message.

    I am okay with either direction, but not with self-contradictory policies. Which this one seems to be.

    For example, what happens when I leave to go somewhere and expects be gone 10 hours (i.e. work or school) and get to leave early? I have to shield for 24 hours to be protected. How long will I need to wait, therefore, before I can play again?

    Shorter example, I want to eat a meal with my family, or watch a TV show, or go play outside with my children and put up a 3 or 8 hour shield. If I have to wait 8 hrs to play OR re-shield, depending on the time of day that I originally shield, I may be asleep or otherwise occupied when my shield breaks. Am I then to just say, oh well(?) I didn't want to win anyway?

    I understand the intent is to equalize and stop abuse of shield-hopping. (What happens when all effort by every player is equalized? For what reason would one attempt to try harder?) But what residual effects will come from this? I do shield hops when I want the top awards because if I don't, I can't protect my score. But that is NOT the only time or reason I break shields early.

    Please read BEAST1970's post. His explanation is much more eloquent than mine and runs in line with my following and final point:
    What I see happening is a shift from paying for shields, to an increase in the purchase of Health packs. Which costs more HP and consequently, more cash. But these would be necessary to continue to fight, to maintain our points, which we need if we are to win. Remember that there exist both individual and Alliance rewards for season totals of earned points and these points go down with losses during events.
    Which puts us right back to the whole, you can win if you are willing to fork over more cash concept. Which sort of makes this seem like a money grab by the developers in the guise of being helpful.

    While I dislike the idea of a shield cool-down period, I am glad the concept has been noticed by the developers. I wholeheartedly disagree that this will be an equalizer for players.
    I encourage opposite, similar and contrasting viewpoints. This is merely how it appears to me. I've been wrong before and will be again.

    I look forward to seeing how others feel about his as well.
  • Spoit
    Spoit Posts: 3,441 Chairperson of the Boards
    mouser wrote:
    "David wrote:
    Moore"]Some of the thinking behind this change:

    • This change helps level the playing field. Players that don't have the Hero Points to spend on Shields, either through being in a top 100 Alliance or purchasing currency, will not need to worry about someone simply outspending them by using hundreds of Hero Points to Shield hop for a win.

    Thanks for reading. Your feedback is welcomed.

    If I am understanding the change as desribed correctly then I disagree strongly with this statement. Shield hopping is still available with this change, just much more limited. Someone willing to buy 2-3 shield types will still easily hop past someone not buying shields assuming they have comparable rosters.

    I like the idea of doing something to reduce the impact of shield hopping, but this change doesn't level the playing field for players that aren't buying shields in my opinion.
    Yeah, and it also becomes much more prohibitively expensive to people who don't IAP, i.e. the type 1 people that someone listed earlier, since instead of doing 2 3 hours during the 6 hours before the event ends, which is still a net gain on the progression rewards alone, you need to do a 3 and a 8, which eats into the final reward HP too.
  • Ducky
    Ducky Posts: 2,255 Community Moderator
    The shield CD is also going to exacerbate the problem of people scoring decently in dry time slices.

Categories