2AP abilities should be nerfed

Unknown

GT-47LM wrote:

Ranzera wrote:

GT-47LM wrote:

The people that either worked hard or paid for their rags don't want him completely changed. Altering numbers is the only way about it. 3 AP instead of 2AP is a FIFTY PERCENT NERF. That isn't enough for you?

You need to understand that generating 5 green tiles with a whopping 2 AP is the problem, nothing else. You could have a 2000 HP Ragnarok that only does 200 damage and he would still be overpowered. You're trying to nerf Ragnarok himself rather than his main problem that actually needs nerfing, his low cost red power, which generates 5 green tiles.

Changing the cost does change the number of green tiles he makes. I can't clearly tell which side of the argument you are on but you can read my post above if you'd like to know the ramifications of changing the 5th upgrade from -1 AP to + 25% damage.

I agree with the -1 AP to 25% damage idea, which would also decrease the amount of green tiles generated, but I believe he would still be a bit too strong with generating 5 green AP. Take Thor, for example with his 6 red AP cost to generate 5 yellow tiles. If I have 12 red AP, I could use it twice, resulting in generating 10 yellow AP. I am almost guaranteed a match 4 yellow without even moving a tile, and could even sometimes make a match 5 to generate a critical tile plus an extra turn. If Ragnarok was only nerfed to +1 AP cost instead, that would mean he could add 20 green tiles to the board with 12 red AP, making a ton of match 3,4, and 5 green tiles, not counting the amount of other AP he would get from clearing a row with a match 4 and critical tiles with match 5's. How is adding +1 AP cost a good nerf if he is pretty much exactly the same, just a tiny less god like?

So you want a hard to get character as good/bad as a character everybody has at level 85?

Unknown

casuist wrote:

A 33% reduction in green tiles sounds like alot but once again, it's all about Classic Storm. All you need is enough for that initial trigger. From then on it ramps up because you're already seeding the board with green and when you have around 20 green, you create a situation where Storm has more green than she ever needs. And this is before considering the additional green you generate matching any convenient 5 matches. Once you get going you almost always have 30 green to clear the board and get more ap for whatever other abilities you might want to use.

The more I think about it, the more I think that it either has to be 4ap cost or generate 3-4 green tiles. 3 ap for 5 green tiles just means I will bring more boosts. Not a huge cost to have an always win while taking minimal damage situation.

I strongly suggest that anyone who hasn't tried it do so. You'll either see there's a huge problem or have a lot of fun dominating every team you face. Either way, you'd have to be pretty naive to not realize that a change will eventually happen.

My concern is that devs make a small initial change like raising it to 3ap then realize it doesn't help much which results in a further change like reducing green tiles generated to 3. Still a decent ability, but overkill in my opinion.

1. that sounds more like a problem with c.storm's green

2. if you want to run c.storm in tourneys prepared to get attacked. A lot.

Unknown

GT-47LM wrote:

Ranzera wrote:

GT-47LM wrote:

The people that either worked hard or paid for their rags don't want him completely changed. Altering numbers is the only way about it. 3 AP instead of 2AP is a FIFTY PERCENT NERF. That isn't enough for you?

You need to understand that generating 5 green tiles with a whopping 2 AP is the problem, nothing else. You could have a 2000 HP Ragnarok that only does 200 damage and he would still be overpowered. You're trying to nerf Ragnarok himself rather than his main problem that actually needs nerfing, his low cost red power, which generates 5 green tiles.

Changing the cost does change the number of green tiles he makes. I can't clearly tell which side of the argument you are on but you can read my post above if you'd like to know the ramifications of changing the 5th upgrade from -1 AP to + 25% damage.

I agree with the -1 AP to 25% damage idea, which would also decrease the amount of green tiles generated, but I believe he would still be a bit too strong with generating 5 green tiles. Take Thor, for example with his 6 red AP cost to generate 5 yellow tiles. If I have 12 red AP, I could use it twice, resulting in generating 10 yellow tiles. I am almost guaranteed a match 4 yellow without even moving a tile, and could even sometimes make a match 5 to generate a critical tile plus an extra turn. If Ragnarok was only nerfed to +1 AP cost instead, that would mean he could add 20 green tiles to the board with 12 red AP, making a ton of match 3,4, and 5 green tiles, not counting the amount of other AP he would get from clearing a row with a match 4 and critical tiles with match 5's. How is adding +1 AP cost a good nerf if he is pretty much exactly the same, just a tiny less god like?

Well there's several reasons in combination that makes the difference between Thor and Ragnarok ok.

1: Ragnarok is a 3 star character while Thor is a 2 star character.
2: Ragnarok only has 2 abilities, and therefore has a lower max level than other 3 star characters.
3: Ragnarok does not have a third strong color. He has 2 strong colors and 4 weak colors.
4: Ragnarok has no "Strong" abilities. Godlike power is really weak in base damage and relies on subsequent cascades for damage. Thunderclap is efficient in damage per AP, but per use it's somewhat lackluster.

Unknown

While we're at it let's nerf classic spidey to make him in line with bagman

Unknown

DumDumDugn wrote:

casuist wrote:

A 33% reduction in green tiles sounds like alot but once again, it's all about Classic Storm. All you need is enough for that initial trigger. From then on it ramps up because you're already seeding the board with green and when you have around 20 green, you create a situation where Storm has more green than she ever needs. And this is before considering the additional green you generate matching any convenient 5 matches. Once you get going you almost always have 30 green to clear the board and get more ap for whatever other abilities you might want to use.

The more I think about it, the more I think that it either has to be 4ap cost or generate 3-4 green tiles. 3 ap for 5 green tiles just means I will bring more boosts. Not a huge cost to have an always win while taking minimal damage situation.

I strongly suggest that anyone who hasn't tried it do so. You'll either see there's a huge problem or have a lot of fun dominating every team you face. Either way, you'd have to be pretty naive to not realize that a change will eventually happen.

My concern is that devs make a small initial change like raising it to 3ap then realize it doesn't help much which results in a further change like reducing green tiles generated to 3. Still a decent ability, but overkill in my opinion.

1. that sounds more like a problem with c.storm's green

2. if you want to run c.storm in tourneys prepared to get attacked. A lot.

1. It's a problem when combined with Ragnarok's red. Which is massively good with other characters but just plain ridiculous with Storm. I have already said in an earlier post that if Ragnarok isn't changed then either Storm's green or boosts will be changed. That seems unfair to the entire player base to me.

2. Doesn't bother me and doesn't seem to bother teams in the top matchmaking brackets as far as I can tell. The majority of teams I face up against are max Ragnarok, max Storm and whatever 3rd character they force on you. I have no problem taking them down and I'm sure they feel the same way about me but it doesn't stop me from getting top 2 every tournament. With a mid level team(Average level 70). Without using health packs. I gain points faster than I lose them.

The change to Storm actually helps me alot since now I don't worry about accidental triggers. I've gone from using health packs occasionally when accidents happen with Storm to almost never needing to. Changing Storm would solve the problem. There's a reason it works with Classic Storm and not so well with Modern Storm. But I think that'd be unfair on Classic Storm.

The thing to remember is that money is the driving force here. They want us to spend on hero points. A situation where I can have my fun, win free covers/game currency and never spend on health packs or even bother to level any character past 70 is not good business for them. As a player I'd prefer to see changes made that benefit both sides. Making a change that doesn't rectify the situation doesn't help and most devs don't revert changes, they just make more changes that usually end up doing more harm than good.

To be clear, I am not saying the change you proposed is bad. I'm just suggesting it may not work which may result in further changes that make the character useless. If the devs raised cost to 3, found it didn't work then reduced it back to 2 and tried reducing green tiles generated to 4 then I wouldn't worry. But more likely they'd just pile on changes and we'd end up with a 2k hp Ragnarok with 3 cost red and 3 tiles generated.

Unknown

I agree with the -1 AP to 25% damage idea, which would also decrease the amount of green tiles generated, but I believe he would still be a bit too strong with generating 5 green tiles. Take Thor, for example with his 6 red AP cost to generate 5 yellow tiles. If I have 12 red AP, I could use it twice, resulting in generating 10 yellow tiles. I am almost guaranteed a match 4 yellow without even moving a tile, and could even sometimes make a match 5 to generate a critical tile plus an extra turn. If Ragnarok was only nerfed to +1 AP cost instead, that would mean he could add 20 green tiles to the board with 12 red AP, making a ton of match 3,4, and 5 green tiles, not counting the amount of other AP he would get from clearing a row with a match 4 and critical tiles with match 5's. How is adding +1 AP cost a good nerf if he is pretty much exactly the same, just a tiny less god like?

Well there's several reasons in combination that makes the difference between Thor and Ragnarok ok.

1: Ragnarok is a 3 star character while Thor is a 2 star character.
2: Ragnarok only has 2 abilities, and therefore has a lower max level than other 3 star characters.
3: Ragnarok does not have a third strong color. He has 2 strong colors and 4 weak colors.
4: Ragnarok has no "Strong" abilities. Godlike power is really weak in base damage and relies on subsequent cascades for damage. Thunderclap is efficient in damage per AP, but per use it's somewhat lackluster.

None of those really matter. Like I said before, even if his damage and health were reduced by 40%, he would still be the overpowered character he is. DumDumDugn has a similar problem, thinking Ragnarok is the problem and not his extremely good abilities. Their are various other posters who are on point on what needs to be nerfed.

Spoit

Exactly, which is why I hope whatever form of nerf they eventually take, they do it incrementally, rather than like this c. storm nerf. Or 3 AP AND 3 greens.

Unknown

Spoit wrote:

Exactly, which is why I hope whatever form of nerf they eventually take, they do it incrementally, rather than like this c. storm nerf. Or 3 AP AND 3 greens.

Yeah, I agree with you their. Although my 3 red AP to generate 3 green tiles was just a quick idea that I threw out, I would definitely like to see the devs make some small changes until they make Ragnarok perfectly balanced.

Unknown

if rags had less hp he could be 1-shotted by stuff like mags purple...you think that's not a big deal?

Unknown

DumDumDugn wrote:

if rags had less hp he could be 1-shotted by stuff like mags purple...you think that's not a big deal?

It really isn't. How much hp he has doesn't phase me at all. I just keep hitting him until he is dead. My Ragnarok having low hp doesn't matter at all since AI doesn't get more than two turns if any at all. And even if they do, Magneto will not get enough ap since half the board will be green by the time AI gets a turn.

Once you have tried the combo and seen the number of teams running it, you quickly realize that running Spiderman etc. hoping to scare people from attacking you doesn't work. I'll attack anyone. The only one I pause at is Daken but if it's a 30 point haul I'll do it anyway. Defense is meaningless to people running Ragnarok + Classic Storm. Ragnarok could have 1k hp and do 0 damage and I'd still use him because it's all about the 5 green.

Anyway, I have said my piece. If you haven't tried the combo I suggest you do.

Unknown

casuist wrote:

DumDumDugn wrote:

if rags had less hp he could be 1-shotted by stuff like mags purple...you think that's not a big deal?

It really isn't. How much hp he has doesn't phase me at all. I just keep hitting him until he is dead. My Ragnarok having low hp doesn't matter at all since AI doesn't get more than two turns if any at all. And even if they do, Magneto will not get enough ap since half the board will be green by the time AI gets a turn.

Once you have tried the combo and seen the number of teams running it, you quickly realize that running Spiderman etc. hoping to scare people from attacking you doesn't work. I'll attack anyone. The only one I pause at is Daken but if it's a 30 point haul I'll do it anyway. Defense is meaningless to people running Ragnarok + Classic Storm. Ragnarok could have 1k hp and do 0 damage and I'd still use him because it's all about the 5 green.

Anyway, I have said my piece. If you haven't tried the combo I suggest you do.

I have tried it and it takes a long **** time killing someone. Rags/grey widow is faster.

Unknown

DumDumDugn wrote:

casuist wrote:

DumDumDugn wrote:

if rags had less hp he could be 1-shotted by stuff like mags purple...you think that's not a big deal?

It really isn't. How much hp he has doesn't phase me at all. I just keep hitting him until he is dead. My Ragnarok having low hp doesn't matter at all since AI doesn't get more than two turns if any at all. And even if they do, Magneto will not get enough ap since half the board will be green by the time AI gets a turn.

Once you have tried the combo and seen the number of teams running it, you quickly realize that running Spiderman etc. hoping to scare people from attacking you doesn't work. I'll attack anyone. The only one I pause at is Daken but if it's a 30 point haul I'll do it anyway. Defense is meaningless to people running Ragnarok + Classic Storm. Ragnarok could have 1k hp and do 0 damage and I'd still use him because it's all about the 5 green.

Anyway, I have said my piece. If you haven't tried the combo I suggest you do.

I have tried it and it takes a long **** time killing someone. Rags/grey widow is faster.

It's more about how many times you can attack someone without taking damage or giving the enemy a turn rather than how fast you can kill them. A Ragnarok and C. Storm combo is efficient because you can continually recycle all the green AP and kill the enemy team without letting them have one turn.

Unknown

Honestly, I'm glad most of you have nothing to do with balancing. Balancing is an art of subtlety. Most of you are brandishing machetes emotionally.

Spoit

Ranzera wrote:

Honestly, I'm glad most of you have nothing to do with balancing. Balancing is an art of subtlety. Most of you are brandishing machetes emotionally.

To be fair, that seems to be their MO

Unknown

GT-47LM wrote:

DumDumDugn wrote:

casuist wrote:

DumDumDugn wrote:

if rags had less hp he could be 1-shotted by stuff like mags purple...you think that's not a big deal?

It really isn't. How much hp he has doesn't phase me at all. I just keep hitting him until he is dead. My Ragnarok having low hp doesn't matter at all since AI doesn't get more than two turns if any at all. And even if they do, Magneto will not get enough ap since half the board will be green by the time AI gets a turn.

Once you have tried the combo and seen the number of teams running it, you quickly realize that running Spiderman etc. hoping to scare people from attacking you doesn't work. I'll attack anyone. The only one I pause at is Daken but if it's a 30 point haul I'll do it anyway. Defense is meaningless to people running Ragnarok + Classic Storm. Ragnarok could have 1k hp and do 0 damage and I'd still use him because it's all about the 5 green.

Anyway, I have said my piece. If you haven't tried the combo I suggest you do.

I have tried it and it takes a long **** time killing someone. Rags/grey widow is faster.

It's more about how many times you can attack someone without taking damage or giving the enemy a turn rather than how fast you can kill them. A Ragnarok and C. Storm combo is efficient because you can continually recycle all the green AP and kill the enemy team without letting them have one turn.

No, attacks/min are the only thing that matters. That, and how scary your team is to deter attackers. Rag/c.storm kills slowly and doesn't deter anybody. You are grossly overexaggerating how many people run that team.

Unknown

DumDumDugn wrote:

No, attacks/min are the only thing that matters. That, and how scary your team is to deter attackers. Rag/c.storm kills slowly and doesn't deter anybody. You are grossly overexaggerating how many people run that team.

Perhaps Ice can shed some light with some hard numbers, but in my match making bracket, majority are Ragnarok + Classic Storm. Next is Spiderman instead of Storm. I suspect this is in hopes of scaring people off but as I said, with this combo it doesn't matter what the opposition is.

I would assume that finishing consistently at the top has put me in the same bracket as similar finishers. 100+ Ragnarok with Storm is pretty much a given. I have the lowest level Ragnarok that I've seen in that bracket. There is a reason that people with this team composition all end up in what I assume is one of the top brackets.

Or maybe I'm just unlucky and stuck in a sub group containing said teams. Given the current state of matchmaking it's certainly possible.

Whatever it is I don't have the data to make any assertions, but if you are right in saying that attacks per minute/scary team are all that is important, my record would imply that I have a high number of attacks per minute and a very scary team. I certainly am not going to complain about hitting my targets in every tournament I compete in.

Maybe it's my mentality but I don't see how any team would be scary enough to avoid. Now if they made a change where AI could use abilities more than once a turn, then I'd be worried. And skip all Ragnarok+Storm teams because I know I'd have a handful of moves at best before the ability spam started.

Perhaps that's what devs should do. Buff Ragnarok by letting ai spam abilities. Fair is fair right? Hardly fair that we can use abilities multiple times and AI can't. I'd really like to see the mayhem that ensues from that.

Unknown

I am glad my posting has gotten a discussion going. I am actually curious on why the developers created the game with low 2AP abilities, but then moved in the total opposite direction ? Ragnarok, Spidey, Magneto were part of the original launch.

But If you look at the new characters has come out, IM40, Invisible Woman, Captain America, Moonstone, Black Widow (Original) - their AP requirement is so high, or gets higher as you level up. Why is that? There is no new character with 2AP abilities (or even close to it)

Who ever wants to use Cap America's Sentinal of Liberty which take 19AP? Or IM40 Ballistic Salvo for 20AP (yes you can gain AP from Recharge ability, but then you are stunned for 2 rounds which basically is a death sentence)? Or Moonstones Control Shift which takes 17AP.

Even the legendary 4 star Wolverine is a p*ssy. 15AP for X-Force, 15AP for Enraged Slash. And don't make me laugh with Recovery 10AP that requires SEVEN countdown at level 5. WTH....

Why would anyone want to use those characters (except in the 3rd slot position) ?

So if we are against nerfing Ragnarok, what about lowering the AP requirements of 3/4 star characters?

One benefit of making Rag's Thunderclap 3AP (or some say 4AP) - would be games last longer (and i would actually have to use my brain).

It would be harder to grind continuously because you won't finish games in 3 minutes and your characters would actually get hurt. That means you need to rest more - the developers would like this idea as they would be earning more money from people buying healthpacks to keep playing! And competitions may actually be fun because you won't wake up to see someone has taken the top spot with a 1000 point lead due to grinding..

Just my 2 cents

Unknown

How bout make it so that each character can only use each ability once per turn.

That wouldn't upset anyone...

Sarcasm ftw

Honestly though it would be interesting and the game would require more strategy. But honestly I'm fine with the way the game currently stands. PvP is a striking game were as PvE can require strategy (having to deal with high health, dangerous opponents)

Unknown

The 'people paid real money' is a bit thin in my opinion. Money is a conversion for time and they have been rewarded by having very powerful characters and placing higher in tournaments.

Game balance should come before any other concern, otherwise what is the point?

Unknown

Shamusyeah wrote:

How bout make it so that each character can only use each ability once per turn.

That wouldn't upset anyone...

Sarcasm ftw

Honestly though it would be interesting and the game would require more strategy. But honestly I'm fine with the way the game currently stands. PvP is a striking game were as PvE can require strategy (having to deal with high health, dangerous opponents)

That's my other opinion. Let's keep 2AP, but then let's have more characters with 2AP attack abilities to mix it up a little. Otherwise this going is get stale in a few months. They have introduced so many new characters but I'm sticking to Rag as my front man.