GT-47LM wrote: Ranzera wrote: GT-47LM wrote: The people that either worked hard or paid for their rags don't want him completely changed. Altering numbers is the only way about it. 3 AP instead of 2AP is a FIFTY PERCENT NERF. That isn't enough for you? You need to understand that generating 5 green tiles with a whopping 2 AP is the problem, nothing else. You could have a 2000 HP Ragnarok that only does 200 damage and he would still be overpowered. You're trying to nerf Ragnarok himself rather than his main problem that actually needs nerfing, his low cost red power, which generates 5 green tiles. Changing the cost does change the number of green tiles he makes. I can't clearly tell which side of the argument you are on but you can read my post above if you'd like to know the ramifications of changing the 5th upgrade from -1 AP to + 25% damage. I agree with the -1 AP to 25% damage idea, which would also decrease the amount of green tiles generated, but I believe he would still be a bit too strong with generating 5 green AP. Take Thor, for example with his 6 red AP cost to generate 5 yellow tiles. If I have 12 red AP, I could use it twice, resulting in generating 10 yellow AP. I am almost guaranteed a match 4 yellow without even moving a tile, and could even sometimes make a match 5 to generate a critical tile plus an extra turn. If Ragnarok was only nerfed to +1 AP cost instead, that would mean he could add 20 green tiles to the board with 12 red AP, making a ton of match 3,4, and 5 green tiles, not counting the amount of other AP he would get from clearing a row with a match 4 and critical tiles with match 5's. How is adding +1 AP cost a good nerf if he is pretty much exactly the same, just a tiny less god like?
Ranzera wrote: GT-47LM wrote: The people that either worked hard or paid for their rags don't want him completely changed. Altering numbers is the only way about it. 3 AP instead of 2AP is a FIFTY PERCENT NERF. That isn't enough for you? You need to understand that generating 5 green tiles with a whopping 2 AP is the problem, nothing else. You could have a 2000 HP Ragnarok that only does 200 damage and he would still be overpowered. You're trying to nerf Ragnarok himself rather than his main problem that actually needs nerfing, his low cost red power, which generates 5 green tiles. Changing the cost does change the number of green tiles he makes. I can't clearly tell which side of the argument you are on but you can read my post above if you'd like to know the ramifications of changing the 5th upgrade from -1 AP to + 25% damage.
GT-47LM wrote: The people that either worked hard or paid for their rags don't want him completely changed. Altering numbers is the only way about it. 3 AP instead of 2AP is a FIFTY PERCENT NERF. That isn't enough for you? You need to understand that generating 5 green tiles with a whopping 2 AP is the problem, nothing else. You could have a 2000 HP Ragnarok that only does 200 damage and he would still be overpowered. You're trying to nerf Ragnarok himself rather than his main problem that actually needs nerfing, his low cost red power, which generates 5 green tiles.
The people that either worked hard or paid for their rags don't want him completely changed. Altering numbers is the only way about it. 3 AP instead of 2AP is a FIFTY PERCENT NERF. That isn't enough for you?
casuist wrote: A 33% reduction in green tiles sounds like alot but once again, it's all about Classic Storm. All you need is enough for that initial trigger. From then on it ramps up because you're already seeding the board with green and when you have around 20 green, you create a situation where Storm has more green than she ever needs. And this is before considering the additional green you generate matching any convenient 5 matches. Once you get going you almost always have 30 green to clear the board and get more ap for whatever other abilities you might want to use. The more I think about it, the more I think that it either has to be 4ap cost or generate 3-4 green tiles. 3 ap for 5 green tiles just means I will bring more boosts. Not a huge cost to have an always win while taking minimal damage situation. I strongly suggest that anyone who hasn't tried it do so. You'll either see there's a huge problem or have a lot of fun dominating every team you face. Either way, you'd have to be pretty naive to not realize that a change will eventually happen. My concern is that devs make a small initial change like raising it to 3ap then realize it doesn't help much which results in a further change like reducing green tiles generated to 3. Still a decent ability, but overkill in my opinion.
GT-47LM wrote: Ranzera wrote: GT-47LM wrote: The people that either worked hard or paid for their rags don't want him completely changed. Altering numbers is the only way about it. 3 AP instead of 2AP is a FIFTY PERCENT NERF. That isn't enough for you? You need to understand that generating 5 green tiles with a whopping 2 AP is the problem, nothing else. You could have a 2000 HP Ragnarok that only does 200 damage and he would still be overpowered. You're trying to nerf Ragnarok himself rather than his main problem that actually needs nerfing, his low cost red power, which generates 5 green tiles. Changing the cost does change the number of green tiles he makes. I can't clearly tell which side of the argument you are on but you can read my post above if you'd like to know the ramifications of changing the 5th upgrade from -1 AP to + 25% damage. I agree with the -1 AP to 25% damage idea, which would also decrease the amount of green tiles generated, but I believe he would still be a bit too strong with generating 5 green tiles. Take Thor, for example with his 6 red AP cost to generate 5 yellow tiles. If I have 12 red AP, I could use it twice, resulting in generating 10 yellow tiles. I am almost guaranteed a match 4 yellow without even moving a tile, and could even sometimes make a match 5 to generate a critical tile plus an extra turn. If Ragnarok was only nerfed to +1 AP cost instead, that would mean he could add 20 green tiles to the board with 12 red AP, making a ton of match 3,4, and 5 green tiles, not counting the amount of other AP he would get from clearing a row with a match 4 and critical tiles with match 5's. How is adding +1 AP cost a good nerf if he is pretty much exactly the same, just a tiny less god like?
DumDumDugn wrote: casuist wrote: A 33% reduction in green tiles sounds like alot but once again, it's all about Classic Storm. All you need is enough for that initial trigger. From then on it ramps up because you're already seeding the board with green and when you have around 20 green, you create a situation where Storm has more green than she ever needs. And this is before considering the additional green you generate matching any convenient 5 matches. Once you get going you almost always have 30 green to clear the board and get more ap for whatever other abilities you might want to use. The more I think about it, the more I think that it either has to be 4ap cost or generate 3-4 green tiles. 3 ap for 5 green tiles just means I will bring more boosts. Not a huge cost to have an always win while taking minimal damage situation. I strongly suggest that anyone who hasn't tried it do so. You'll either see there's a huge problem or have a lot of fun dominating every team you face. Either way, you'd have to be pretty naive to not realize that a change will eventually happen. My concern is that devs make a small initial change like raising it to 3ap then realize it doesn't help much which results in a further change like reducing green tiles generated to 3. Still a decent ability, but overkill in my opinion. 1. that sounds more like a problem with c.storm's green 2. if you want to run c.storm in tourneys prepared to get attacked. A lot.
I agree with the -1 AP to 25% damage idea, which would also decrease the amount of green tiles generated, but I believe he would still be a bit too strong with generating 5 green tiles. Take Thor, for example with his 6 red AP cost to generate 5 yellow tiles. If I have 12 red AP, I could use it twice, resulting in generating 10 yellow tiles. I am almost guaranteed a match 4 yellow without even moving a tile, and could even sometimes make a match 5 to generate a critical tile plus an extra turn. If Ragnarok was only nerfed to +1 AP cost instead, that would mean he could add 20 green tiles to the board with 12 red AP, making a ton of match 3,4, and 5 green tiles, not counting the amount of other AP he would get from clearing a row with a match 4 and critical tiles with match 5's. How is adding +1 AP cost a good nerf if he is pretty much exactly the same, just a tiny less god like? Well there's several reasons in combination that makes the difference between Thor and Ragnarok ok. 1: Ragnarok is a 3 star character while Thor is a 2 star character. 2: Ragnarok only has 2 abilities, and therefore has a lower max level than other 3 star characters. 3: Ragnarok does not have a third strong color. He has 2 strong colors and 4 weak colors. 4: Ragnarok has no "Strong" abilities. Godlike power is really weak in base damage and relies on subsequent cascades for damage. Thunderclap is efficient in damage per AP, but per use it's somewhat lackluster.
Well there's several reasons in combination that makes the difference between Thor and Ragnarok ok. 1: Ragnarok is a 3 star character while Thor is a 2 star character. 2: Ragnarok only has 2 abilities, and therefore has a lower max level than other 3 star characters. 3: Ragnarok does not have a third strong color. He has 2 strong colors and 4 weak colors. 4: Ragnarok has no "Strong" abilities. Godlike power is really weak in base damage and relies on subsequent cascades for damage. Thunderclap is efficient in damage per AP, but per use it's somewhat lackluster.
Spoit wrote: Exactly, which is why I hope whatever form of nerf they eventually take, they do it incrementally, rather than like this c. storm nerf. Or 3 AP AND 3 greens.
DumDumDugn wrote: if rags had less hp he could be 1-shotted by stuff like mags purple...you think that's not a big deal?
casuist wrote: DumDumDugn wrote: if rags had less hp he could be 1-shotted by stuff like mags purple...you think that's not a big deal? It really isn't. How much hp he has doesn't phase me at all. I just keep hitting him until he is dead. My Ragnarok having low hp doesn't matter at all since AI doesn't get more than two turns if any at all. And even if they do, Magneto will not get enough ap since half the board will be green by the time AI gets a turn. Once you have tried the combo and seen the number of teams running it, you quickly realize that running Spiderman etc. hoping to scare people from attacking you doesn't work. I'll attack anyone. The only one I pause at is Daken but if it's a 30 point haul I'll do it anyway. Defense is meaningless to people running Ragnarok + Classic Storm. Ragnarok could have 1k hp and do 0 damage and I'd still use him because it's all about the 5 green. Anyway, I have said my piece. If you haven't tried the combo I suggest you do.
DumDumDugn wrote: casuist wrote: DumDumDugn wrote: if rags had less hp he could be 1-shotted by stuff like mags purple...you think that's not a big deal? It really isn't. How much hp he has doesn't phase me at all. I just keep hitting him until he is dead. My Ragnarok having low hp doesn't matter at all since AI doesn't get more than two turns if any at all. And even if they do, Magneto will not get enough ap since half the board will be green by the time AI gets a turn. Once you have tried the combo and seen the number of teams running it, you quickly realize that running Spiderman etc. hoping to scare people from attacking you doesn't work. I'll attack anyone. The only one I pause at is Daken but if it's a 30 point haul I'll do it anyway. Defense is meaningless to people running Ragnarok + Classic Storm. Ragnarok could have 1k hp and do 0 damage and I'd still use him because it's all about the 5 green. Anyway, I have said my piece. If you haven't tried the combo I suggest you do. I have tried it and it takes a long **** time killing someone. Rags/grey widow is faster.
Ranzera wrote: Honestly, I'm glad most of you have nothing to do with balancing. Balancing is an art of subtlety. Most of you are brandishing machetes emotionally.
GT-47LM wrote: DumDumDugn wrote: casuist wrote: DumDumDugn wrote: if rags had less hp he could be 1-shotted by stuff like mags purple...you think that's not a big deal? It really isn't. How much hp he has doesn't phase me at all. I just keep hitting him until he is dead. My Ragnarok having low hp doesn't matter at all since AI doesn't get more than two turns if any at all. And even if they do, Magneto will not get enough ap since half the board will be green by the time AI gets a turn. Once you have tried the combo and seen the number of teams running it, you quickly realize that running Spiderman etc. hoping to scare people from attacking you doesn't work. I'll attack anyone. The only one I pause at is Daken but if it's a 30 point haul I'll do it anyway. Defense is meaningless to people running Ragnarok + Classic Storm. Ragnarok could have 1k hp and do 0 damage and I'd still use him because it's all about the 5 green. Anyway, I have said my piece. If you haven't tried the combo I suggest you do. I have tried it and it takes a long **** time killing someone. Rags/grey widow is faster. It's more about how many times you can attack someone without taking damage or giving the enemy a turn rather than how fast you can kill them. A Ragnarok and C. Storm combo is efficient because you can continually recycle all the green AP and kill the enemy team without letting them have one turn.
DumDumDugn wrote: No, attacks/min are the only thing that matters. That, and how scary your team is to deter attackers. Rag/c.storm kills slowly and doesn't deter anybody. You are grossly overexaggerating how many people run that team.
Shamusyeah wrote: How bout make it so that each character can only use each ability once per turn. That wouldn't upset anyone... Sarcasm ftw Honestly though it would be interesting and the game would require more strategy. But honestly I'm fine with the way the game currently stands. PvP is a striking game were as PvE can require strategy (having to deal with high health, dangerous opponents)