2AP abilities should be nerfed

Unknown

Sorry for bringing up a kind of old thread, but what's everyone's current standing on 2 AP abilities? Should their be no such thing as 2 AP abilities because it is too low, or should they be kept how they are?

Unknown

GT-47LM wrote:

Sorry for bringing up a kind of old thread, but what's everyone's current standing on 2 AP abilities? Should their be no such thing as 2 AP abilities because it is too low, or should they be kept how they are?

I now have 3 chars with 2AP abilities but my stance is still:

I personally would like to see some sort of consistency in the cost of abilities - lots of characters have abilities that are worthless and have high cost and vice versa.

To me the way to do it would be:

2-5AP - abilities that cause stun, strike tiles, protect tiles, shuffle board.

5-10AP - abilities that generate AP, steal AP, and countdown tiles that cause damage.

10-15AP - high damage abilities to a single target.

15-20AP - high damage abilities to all targets.

Unknown

CaptainBatman wrote:

GT-47LM wrote:

Sorry for bringing up a kind of old thread, but what's everyone's current standing on 2 AP abilities? Should their be no such thing as 2 AP abilities because it is too low, or should they be kept how they are?

I now have 3 chars with 2AP abilities but my stance is still:

I personally would like to see some sort of consistency in the cost of abilities - lots of characters have abilities that are worthless and have high cost and vice versa.

To me the way to do it would be:

2-5AP - abilities that cause stun, strike tiles, protect tiles, shuffle board.

5-10AP - abilities that generate AP, steal AP, and countdown tiles that cause damage.

10-15AP - high damage abilities to a single target.

15-20AP - high damage abilities to all targets.

Seems like a pretty good system. I just have no idea why most of the 3* characters have abilities that usually cost 8 AP and higher, even powers that cost more than 15 AP, and yet their are other powers which only require 2 AP. It seems counterproductive when you are using strategy to build up all that AP for a strong move, carefully making every move, but another character doesn't need strategy because he only requires 2 AP to use a strong move, changing the board and making thinking ahead against your opponent useless. I am purely against powers that let you have a leftover of a certain color with a match-3, where you can use it 3 times with 6 AP rather than only twice. I guess I just want the game to be played how it was meant to be.

Unknown

CaptainBatman wrote:

To me the way to do it would be:

2-5AP - abilities that cause stun, strike tiles, protect tiles, shuffle board.

5-10AP - abilities that generate AP, steal AP, and countdown tiles that cause damage.

10-15AP - high damage abilities to a single target.

15-20AP - high damage abilities to all targets.

Precisely. +1!
There are exceptions of course (wouldn't want Doom placing strikes at 2-5 AP!).
But without exception, IMHO, defensive abilities should be generally low AP (rant: CapAm & IW yellows are completely backwards..)

Unknown

Your exception is the main reason no one considers Doom top tier. Why exactly are his strike tiles this expensive? They only use RED, which is collected ASAP by Thor/Rag/Wolv/Mag/Jug/Moon/Punisher if there is a possible match. And to add to their removability, they only hurt in the long run. Which is not present in the current meta of boosts/fight/rag/rag/rag/...
I did not expect nerfs to those abilites. Now that I have managed to get a 5red/2green Rag and being on the giving and not only on the receiving end of things I find it even more absurdly overpowered.

Unknown

I have a 77 Magneto (2/2/4), but I have no problem putting him on a back burner if I get Ragnarok covers (31, 1/2).

The meta is all about speed. You cannot be competitive otherwise.

The other characters are for playing for fun, which is something to do in tournaments to tank in, or in some PvE missions.

Unknown

2 AP abilities are fine if balanced properly. The problem is that many are stronger than more expensive abilities when compared at the same AP cost. Cheap abilities should be weak, but Thunderclap is anything but.

More expensive = more powerful imo.

Unknown

Exactly my point. 3 AP abilities I'm fine with, but not anything lower than that. Like ihearthawthats said, the amount of AP that something costs should determine how effective it is for you and how effective it is against the enemy.

Unknown

ghostlightning wrote:

I have a 77 Magneto (2/2/4), but I have no problem putting him on a back burner if I get Ragnarok covers (31, 1/2).

The meta is all about speed. You cannot be competitive otherwise.

The other characters are for playing for fun, which is something to do in tournaments to tank in, or in some PvE missions.

Mag is faster than rag unboosted, unless you also have a BSGW.

Unknown

I think they should just get rid of any upgrades that decrease AP cost. Things like Wolverine's green or Ragnarok's red might as well be two totally different skills at level 1 versus level 5. The change from level 1 to level 5 is nothing like the generic 'do more stuff' upgrade. From a balance point of view, this means if level 1 is balanced then level 5 is obviously too good (you can use Ragnarok's ability 3 times as often as level 5 compared to 1), and yet if it's balanced at level 5 that implies the ability is worthless at level 1. E.g. if Ragnroks' 5r is somehow balanced, then his 1r must be a complete waste of space given it's 1/3 as powerful as the 5r.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

I think they should just get rid of any upgrades that decrease AP cost. Things like Wolverine's green or Ragnarok's red might as well be two totally different skills at level 1 versus level 5. The change from level 1 to level 5 is nothing like the generic 'do more stuff' upgrade. From a balance point of view, this means if level 1 is balanced then level 5 is obviously too good (you can use Ragnarok's ability 3 times as often as level 5 compared to 1), and yet if it's balanced at level 5 that implies the ability is worthless at level 1. E.g. if Ragnroks' 5r is somehow balanced, then his 1r must be a complete waste of space given it's 1/3 as powerful as the 5r.

I don't really care either way about this issue but you could apply this same logic to any power which does not have increasing ap costs. For example if a damage dealing power was balanced at level 1 and the damage increases at level two but the ap cost does not then is that power still balanced at higher levels?
The damage/health goes up but the cost does now.

Because of this I would imagine that the devs try to keep balance from a max level perspective. If that is true then we can have a different discussion about whether or not that is the right way to do things.

Unknown

beezer37_84 wrote:

I don't really care either way about this issue but you could apply this same logic to any power which does not have increasing ap costs. For example if a damage dealing power was balanced at level 1 and the damage increases at level two but the ap cost does not then is that power still balanced at higher levels?
The damage/health goes up but the cost does now.

Because of this I would imagine that the devs try to keep balance from a max level perspective. If that is true then we can have a different discussion about whether or not that is the right way to do things.

I'm pretty sure there's no straight damage dealing ability that is 3 times as powerful at level 5 compared to 1, which is the case of Ragnroks' 5r versus 1r. Or even like Wolverine's green going from 7AP to 3AP (more than 100% increase). If an ability like Unibeam scaled the same way like Ragnroks' red did, then at 5r it'd do significantly more damage than the max HP available in the game, but it clearly does not.

Unknown

Phantron wrote:

beezer37_84 wrote:

I don't really care either way about this issue but you could apply this same logic to any power which does not have increasing ap costs. For example if a damage dealing power was balanced at level 1 and the damage increases at level two but the ap cost does not then is that power still balanced at higher levels?
The damage/health goes up but the cost does now.

Because of this I would imagine that the devs try to keep balance from a max level perspective. If that is true then we can have a different discussion about whether or not that is the right way to do things.

I'm pretty sure there's no straight damage dealing ability that is 3 times as powerful at level 5 compared to 1, which is the case of Ragnroks' 5r versus 1r. Or even like Wolverine's green going from 7AP to 3AP (more than 100% increase). If an ability like Unibeam scaled the same way like Ragnroks' red did, then at 5r it'd do significantly more damage than the max HP available in the game, but it clearly does not.

magnetic translocation

Unknown

DumDumDugn wrote:

magnetic translocation

Venom's Devour.

Unknown

Misguided wrote:

DumDumDugn wrote:

magnetic translocation

Venom's Devour.

classic mags' blue

Spoit

Or he'll even grey widow's green

Unknown

DumDumDugn wrote:

Phantron wrote:

beezer37_84 wrote:

I don't really care either way about this issue but you could apply this same logic to any power which does not have increasing ap costs. For example if a damage dealing power was balanced at level 1 and the damage increases at level two but the ap cost does not then is that power still balanced at higher levels?
The damage/health goes up but the cost does now.

Because of this I would imagine that the devs try to keep balance from a max level perspective. If that is true then we can have a different discussion about whether or not that is the right way to do things.

I'm pretty sure there's no straight damage dealing ability that is 3 times as powerful at level 5 compared to 1, which is the case of Ragnroks' 5r versus 1r. Or even like Wolverine's green going from 7AP to 3AP (more than 100% increase). If an ability like Unibeam scaled the same way like Ragnroks' red did, then at 5r it'd do significantly more damage than the max HP available in the game, but it clearly does not.

magnetic translocation

This ability is highly situational and provides no board control. If there is not a large number of red AND blue tiles available the ability doesn't do full damage (though i will admit the damage is still very high). Every post you've made defends rag being balanced which leads me to believe you have no concept of balance. Board control > pure damage. Case and point, im40 is a pretty bad cover, even though he has a lot of pure damage abilities, because he provides no board control and his skills don't reduce AP as they are leveled. Magneto has some utility skills as well as the luxury of having skills that reduce required AP as they are leveled.

To me, the broken mechanic here is abilities that scale damage based on cover level, but reduce AP cost as more covers are added. If the same mechanic was added to every 3* skill I would imagine people would cry non stop, why is it acceptable that some already strong abilities scale like that, and some don't?

Unknown

panthroq wrote:

DumDumDugn wrote:

Phantron wrote:

beezer37_84 wrote:

I don't really care either way about this issue but you could apply this same logic to any power which does not have increasing ap costs. For example if a damage dealing power was balanced at level 1 and the damage increases at level two but the ap cost does not then is that power still balanced at higher levels?
The damage/health goes up but the cost does now.

Because of this I would imagine that the devs try to keep balance from a max level perspective. If that is true then we can have a different discussion about whether or not that is the right way to do things.

I'm pretty sure there's no straight damage dealing ability that is 3 times as powerful at level 5 compared to 1, which is the case of Ragnroks' 5r versus 1r. Or even like Wolverine's green going from 7AP to 3AP (more than 100% increase). If an ability like Unibeam scaled the same way like Ragnroks' red did, then at 5r it'd do significantly more damage than the max HP available in the game, but it clearly does not.

magnetic translocation

This ability is highly situational and provides no board control. If there is not a large number of red AND blue tiles available the ability doesn't do full damage (though i will admit the damage is still very high). Every post you've made defends rag being balanced which leads me to believe you have no concept of balance. Board control > pure damage. Case and point, im40 is a pretty bad cover, even though he has a lot of pure damage abilities, because he provides no board control and his skills don't reduce AP as they are leveled. Magneto has some utility skills as well as the luxury of having skills that reduce required AP as they are leveled.

To me, the broken mechanic here is abilities that scale damage based on cover level, but reduce AP cost as more covers are added. If the same mechanic was added to every 3* skill I would imagine people would cry non stop, why is it acceptable that some already strong abilities scale like that, and some don't?

magnetic translocation

highly situational





FYI, the damage on translocation only depends on how many blue tiles are on the board.

Unknown

When attempting to play against ragnarok with a sole 1* team I can see how frustrating it is for many players to deal with.


His damage output isn't really a problem. It's how soon he can deal the damage. I have [gone against] a team with a level 95 Ragnarok and [my team] survived, all at half health more or less. Mistress of the Elements, Thunder Strike, Take Aim, and Widow's Sting were vital elements of my strategy. With boosts there would be no contest, but I hate using "But with boosts" reasoning. I didn't use boosts and I did alright. Luck wasn't on my side, it was hard getting a purple match.

With high damage abilities, generally they require a lot of AP. AP denial, stunning, or downing fast are typical strategies. He can do damage too quickly. Then he chokes with green.

Lets say that Ragnarok must reach 6 ap before he can use thunderclap. Leave the cost at 2 AP, but first he has to obtain 6 AP to use it. Make it so that his red is drained to 4 AP when he uses Thunderclap. If Ragnarok has 13 red AP, his red is drained to 4 AP. Damage is proportional to the amount of AP consumed. The number of Green tiles randomly placed on the board is equal to 2.5x the amount of red AP consumed (the same). Lets take a page from the HULK. If the team does not have at least 10 yellow AP, ragnarok deals x% damage he deals to himself and allies. Give Ragnarok a third ability, which allows him to reduce the amount of yellow AP required or reduces the damage dealt to the team. Drain his yellow AP by a certain value when using godlike ability.

Note that yellow is absent from Dark Avengers. There is symbolism to Earth, Vitality, Constitution, defense. Having yellow protects his allies from the damage he deals.

This will create a condition where Ragnarok has to be managed and strategy implemented. I don't want to weaken him as he's neither strong nor weak. Right now he's a self contained machine that doesn't require any strategy to use. He's boring.

[edits]

Unknown

spidey 2ap stunlock is annoying but not so annoying compared to rag 2ap red. no thinking required, just spam it to create cascade, cleared enemy tiles with green. unload his partner green offensie skill [wolvie,grey widow, cstorm, thor, etc]
no brain here..^^ his 2 ap true terror is creating 3 green tiles. meanwhile hulk rage only create 1 green [i know, he can be hit multiple times to produce multiple black cdown tiles]. still hulk weaker than ragnarok in term of efficiency. hp wise? not to much different.

ragnarok is board master
hail the clone asgardian!!!