*** The Punisher (Dark Reign) ***

Unknown

Elementalor wrote:

I think I'm going down the 3/5/5 route after looking over the numbers again.

Level 3 vs level 5 black just doesn't seem too impressive and the attack tiles are unimpressive in general.
The gain in utility from the red is just a bit better than what you get for the black(better nuke/nice range on the execute vs slightly better attack tiles and 1 CD).
In terms of damage I'd imagine his rotation being green to black and red usage depending on your team. The main boost from the green's strike to black's attack only needs 1 on the board to really get the full effects.
He's just really outclassed in actual tile effects IMO, but I'd like to hear how effective the tile barrage is at 5/5/3.

I've won maybe 2 out of hundreds of matches with an attack tile (on an enemy that was already about to die anyway) if that's what you mean. So no, my attack tiles haven't really been a deciding factor in any matchup to date.

I have found myself using red to clear out level 240 Juggernauts and such that have ridiculous health levels. My original thought was to go 3/5/5 but I caved as mentioned earlier and went 5/5/3.

I have also found myself using his green as many times as possible without regard for whether I destroy my own strike tiles, since net-net, I tend to end up with more than I had to begin with.

I should mention that the black tile has the annoying, undocumented feature (which everyone I'm sure realized except me) that it converts an existing red tile to the countdown, similar to Doom's attack tiles or Daken's strike tiles. Which means that if there are any 3 or more red tiles on the board that are close enough to be matched, you need to clear those red tiles first or risk having one of those tiles become your countdown, which the enemy can then just match and clear instantly. It's annoying and may be a real hindrance to the black's utility long-term. On the flip side, as I mentioned, with strike tiles in place, the initial Molotov toss does surprisingly good damage to the whole enemy team.

Over time, his red may end up being his single most useful ability, but it's not something you're using every turn, or possibly even every game, especially if you have Ragnarok, which most of us will. Still OHKOs enemies at 30% of their max health, which is not as good as 40%, but is still useful.

It's starting to look more likely that I misplayed my build and 3/5/5 might be the best way to go but we'll see. I like that it isn't 100% clear which way is best to go...makes the character more interesting IMO.

Unknown

someguy wrote:

Elementalor wrote:

I think I'm going down the 3/5/5 route after looking over the numbers again.

Level 3 vs level 5 black just doesn't seem too impressive and the attack tiles are unimpressive in general.
The gain in utility from the red is just a bit better than what you get for the black(better nuke/nice range on the execute vs slightly better attack tiles and 1 CD).
In terms of damage I'd imagine his rotation being green to black and red usage depending on your team. The main boost from the green's strike to black's attack only needs 1 on the board to really get the full effects.
He's just really outclassed in actual tile effects IMO, but I'd like to hear how effective the tile barrage is at 5/5/3.

I've won maybe 2 out of hundreds of matches with an attack tile (on an enemy that was already about to die anyway) if that's what you mean. So no, my attack tiles haven't really been a deciding factor in any matchup to date.

I kind of meant more how the tile snowball works out in practicality as in the build up of damage and the destruction from green. From when I need to use him the molotov never stays up much longer than a turn typically.

And yeah 30% is nothing to sneeze at, I'm valuing the 40%(or damage bump) from only a speed/turns used perspective. But yeah, using red for someone other than Rag is pretty situational.

Unknown

It's an obvious 5/5/3 to me.

-Black is easily a 5 because we have a lack of good Black skills (please do something about Moonstone's uselessly expensive Black).
-Green is a 5 because it synergizes well with other 3* characters.
-Red is a 3 because even though his Red is at least on par with other 3* Reds, there are so many other good Red skills that I don't give a f*** about 40%.

Of course, it depends on your playing style. If you don't use Punisher as a main and only use him to rush down characters in specific matches, then 40% is better as a situational use. But for me, it's not worth crippling his Green for that.

Unknown

KholdStare88 wrote:

It's an obvious 5/5/3 to me.

-Black is easily a 5 because we have a lack of good Black skills (please do something about Moonstone's uselessly expensive Black).
-Green is a 5 because it synergizes well with other 3* characters.
-Red is a 3 because even though his Red is at least on par with other 3* Reds, there are so many other good Red skills that I don't give a f*** about 40%.

Of course, it depends on your playing style. If you don't use Punisher as a main and only use him to rush down characters in specific matches, then 40% is better as a situational use. But for me, it's not worth crippling his Green for that.

Even though I went 5 red I think your reasoning for keeping it at 3 is sound.

But I disagree with the reason you gave for putting black at 5. Everything you said is true but that doesn't mean it needs to be at 5. By keeping mine at 3 I lost damage from the attack tiles and my countdown is one longer. Keeping it at three doesn't mean it is now all of sudden a bad black skill. And regardless of your style of play it is still a countdown so if someone looks at it and says well there is no guarantee I'll even get one attack tile out of this I would tell them to at least consider red. If on the other hand you only play Punisher and Spidey together Black looks better for the slow game.

I think for Black and Red the last two levels don't make or break anything. I think for green having it at 5 is best.

NorthernPolarity

Do you guys think that he is a good compliment to my current roster of O. Black Widow, Thor, and Wolvie? I have about 40k iso stocked up and have a 1/3/5 punisher that I can pump iso into, but I'm not sure if I would be better off holding the iso for someone else.

Unknown

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Do you guys think that he is a good compliment to my current roster of O. Black Widow, Thor, and Wolvie? I have about 40k iso stocked up and have a 1/3/5 punisher that I can pump iso into, but I'm not sure if I would be better off holding the iso for someone else.

From a 2star perspective I absolutely love the combination of oBW, Thor and Wolvie so if they are all close to max it may be worth it to just keep going with them until your roster is expanded a little more.

Punisher's red clashes with Thors, his Green with Wolvie and his high black tile match damage with oBW (assuming you have her at 4 or 5 black).

If you're looking for an upgrade it would be to Wolvie but not a major one. And you'd have to get Punisher up quite a bit to really justify replacing Wolvie (especially if he is 5/3/5).

Unknown

someguy wrote:

I like that it isn't 100% clear which way is best to go...makes the character more interesting IMO.

I was thinking the same thing as I read all the comments and observations. I think hulk is the same way. It's nice to have options and I hope future characters present similar variety of builds. The problem IMO is that we don't have a tough time choosing a build because every skill pun/hulk has is awesome but rather because all of the skills are equally mediocre. We're trying to find a way to give these guys a spot on the starting line up but unfortunately the are pinch hitters at best, only good in certain circumstances. So while we won't throw away the covers, we will only bring them out when they are required/buffed or to add a little variety, not because they are the best characters we can put in the field. Just my disappointed observations. ..

Unknown

the moose wrote:

someguy wrote:

I like that it isn't 100% clear which way is best to go...makes the character more interesting IMO.

I was thinking the same thing as I read all the comments and observations. I think hulk is the same way. It's nice to have options and I hope future characters present similar variety of builds. The problem IMO is that we don't have a tough time choosing a build because every skill pun/hulk has is awesome but rather because all of the skills are equally mediocre. We're trying to find a way to give these guys a spot on the starting line up but unfortunately the are pinch hitters at best, only good in certain circumstances. So while we won't throw away the covers, we will only bring them out when they are required/buffed or to add a little variety, not because they are the best characters we can put in the field. Just my disappointed observations. ..

I like it also. Like I said above, my playing style is 5/5/3, but I can completely understand someone maxing Red. All skills should excel in certain situations.

Spoit

Man I really need to make a decision. These covers from last week's tournament expire in a day and a half

NorthernPolarity

beezer37_84 wrote:

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Do you guys think that he is a good compliment to my current roster of O. Black Widow, Thor, and Wolvie? I have about 40k iso stocked up and have a 1/3/5 punisher that I can pump iso into, but I'm not sure if I would be better off holding the iso for someone else.

From a 2star perspective I absolutely love the combination of oBW, Thor and Wolvie so if they are all close to max it may be worth it to just keep going with them until your roster is expanded a little more.

Punisher's red clashes with Thors, his Green with Wolvie and his high black tile match damage with oBW (assuming you have her at 4 or 5 black).

If you're looking for an upgrade it would be to Wolvie but not a major one. And you'd have to get Punisher up quite a bit to really justify replacing Wolvie (especially if he is 5/3/5).

Yeah, I have an 85 widow (5/3/5)/thor(5/5/3), and a 77 wolvie (5/3/4), so I guess I won't be levelling punisher anytime soon. I would imagine that punisher would actually replace thor, since wolvies strike tiles + widow's espionage can actually power punisher's black to be a mini GS widow sniper shot.

Unknown

Elementalor wrote:

I kind of meant more how the tile snowball works out in practicality as in the build up of damage and the destruction from green. From when I need to use him the molotov never stays up much longer than a turn typically.

In that case, same. Again, there are hoops you have to jump through to get an unmolested red countdown tile on the board with a chance of making attack tiles:
1 - There has to be at least one basic red tile on the board that isn't a special tile (Daken/Wolvie strike tile, Doom attack tile, etc.)
2 - That basic red tile can't be near 2 or more red tiles that can easily make a match-3 (4, 5, etc.) otherwise the AI might just clear it out next turn
3 - You have to have enough black AP to do it. For his green, you have Ragnarok to help you. For his black, you have nobody. (That's why I briefly considered pairing this guy with Doom)

It takes time to get a clear shot at making that red countdown tile. It's starting to seem like it may take too much time

Elementalor wrote:

And yeah 30% is nothing to sneeze at, I'm valuing the 40%(or damage bump) from only a speed/turns used perspective.

Yes, that's why I spent the first half of this thread talking up 3/5/5 as the best build. And why it might still be, even though I chose different.

Elementalor wrote:

But yeah, using red for someone other than Rag is pretty situational.

Lightning rounds and the inevitable buffed Hulk tourney. You'll get use out of it, don't worry.

Unknown

KholdStare88 wrote:

It's an obvious 5/5/3 to me.

-Black is easily a 5 because we have a lack of good Black skills (please do something about Moonstone's uselessly expensive Black).
-Green is a 5 because it synergizes well with other 3* characters.
-Red is a 3 because even though his Red is at least on par with other 3* Reds, there are so many other good Red skills that I don't give a f*** about 40%.

Not necessarily true. None of the current top dogs in the entire game uses black, and they do just fine.

Green is a 5 because what's the point if it's left at 3. Make intentionally weaker strike tiles to subsequently destroy to add even weaker strike tiles? Suboptimal.

And again, for his red, you're not using this thing every single turn like Ragnarok. You're using this once, maybe twice per match. And as someone who has been grinding away at the L240 / L247 enemies in the Hulk rounds, trust me, it's very, very nice to be have yet another option (in addition to C. Magneto purple) to OHKO a high health enemy without having to drop them all the way to zero. This is with a 115 Ragnarok on my team.

Unknown

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Do you guys think that he is a good compliment to my current roster of O. Black Widow, Thor, and Wolvie? I have about 40k iso stocked up and have a 1/3/5 punisher that I can pump iso into, but I'm not sure if I would be better off holding the iso for someone else.

Yes, as mentioned, the biggest problem is that Frank's green randomly destroys a 3x3 block of tiles. Which could include some of Wolvie's strike tiles The whole point of Wolvie seems to be going 5 green and just littering the entire board with his annoying strike tiles to add up damage. Can't really do that if you keep destroying them yourself.

Spoit wrote:

Man I really need to make a decision. These covers from last week's tournament expire in a day and a half

3/5/5 is starting to seem like it's edging out 5/5/3 to me. I would definitely max green whatever else you do.

NorthernPolarity wrote:

Yeah, I have an 85 widow (5/3/5)/thor(5/5/3), and a 77 wolvie (5/3/4), so I guess I won't be levelling punisher anytime soon. I would imagine that punisher would actually replace thor, since wolvies strike tiles + widow's espionage can actually power punisher's black to be a mini GS widow sniper shot.

Use Frank's green enough times and he can make his own black into a mini sniper shot, no Wolvie needed. If you're running a 3-star team, generating tons of green to power Frank shouldn't be a problem for you.

Unknown

someguy wrote:

Not necessarily true. None of the current top dogs in the entire game uses black, and they do just fine.

I think you missed the "for me" part. It's a personal playstyle that I want someone who has a good maxed black skill.

Unknown

someguy wrote:

stuff

Yeah, I agree with you, I'm just trying to see if someone can make an argument for black that I haven't considered yet.

The way the original black worked was far superior with 1 CD tiles and double the damage on the attack tiles. That was the only time I really considered black as a better max.

Just trying to see if there's an angle I'm missing on black the way it stands now.

Unknown

KholdStare88 wrote:

someguy wrote:

Not necessarily true. None of the current top dogs in the entire game uses black, and they do just fine.

I think you missed the "for me" part. It's a personal playstyle that I want someone who has a good maxed black skill.

I think the question we're asking (which I suppose neither of us have been clear about) is this:

Does maxing out the black skill make it good? Sure 5 black compared to 3 black is better if you take nothing else in to account, but considering green and red do you need the extra 2 levels in black in order to call it a good skill?

I'm like you in that I want a character with a good black skill but I believe i have that with my 3/5/5. And if you bring play style in to it then I'm definitely someone who should have gone 5 black (I have a lvl125+ Spidey with 5 blue covers) yet I still didn't bring black up to 5.

Unknown

You can think of it 2 ways:

-I chain a lot, so reducing countdown by 1 is very important so I get the most of out it before it's removed by chains.
-I chain a lot, therefore black is entirely useless anyways since it will most likely be removed by chains.

(I'm assuming everyone who manages to get lots of covers of Punisher are likely to also have Rag/Mag.)

I tend to argue the first option, but if you argue the second option I totally understand.

Unknown

beezer37_84 wrote:

I think the question we're asking (which I suppose neither of us have been clear about) is this:

Does maxing out the black skill make it good? Sure 5 black compared to 3 black is better if you take nothing else in to account, but considering green and red do you need the extra 2 levels in black in order to call it a good skill?

Then the short answer is no as far as I can tell right now. You get one less countdown on your tile. That's the main benefit. The description doesn't indicate that the initial bottle toss does any extra damage when you go from 3 covers to 5. I admit I wasn't keeping track while I was leveling my Frank.

In any case, 5 black doesn't mitigate all the babysitting you have to do just to get that countdown tile on the board that I mentioned earlier. Not to mention having your countdown tile spawn on a row/column with a horizontal or vertical four-in-a-row / five-in-a-row that the AI clears out the very next turn.

Frank's black seems like something you have to jump through hoops just to get that countdown tile, unmolested, onto the board. To say nothing of getting it to survive until it can countdown to spawn an attack tile. Yes, it's nice to have one less countdown turn to ensure you get your attack tiles on the board, but it's not clear that it's worth the extra two covers. My opinion might be skewed since 95% of my play for the last 2 weeks has been in Hulk PVE matches against buffed Ragnaroks who constantly clear the board with GP, which is really annoying when your countdown tile spawns in the center columns (another concern you have to babysit around if you want to keep the countdown tile in play). In my case, I've mainly been using Spidey to keep the entire enemy team stunlocked for multiple turns, in which case the 2 countdown versus the 3 countdown doesn't really matter. YMMV if you don't have a stunlock character on your team.

In contrast, at 5, his green is just something I find myself just spamming out repeatedly. I know I made a big deal earlier about how it sucks that Frank can randomly destroy his own strike tiles, but honestly, I've given up caring about whether I destroy a couple on my second use, because I'll be adding 3 more, and since I usually have Ragnarok, well, let's just say green AP isn't hard to pile up to fuel it. I've found that net-net, with multiple uses, I usually end up with more than I had the last time. i.e. Make 3 strike tiles the first time -> Destroy 1, Make 3 more the second time for a grand total of 5. -> Destroy 2 more, Make 3 more the third time for a grand total of 6, etc. I've never destroyed more than 2 strike tiles with successive green uses and usually only take out 1 or 0, but that's just my anecdotal observations. It's not clear there's anything in the game hard-coded that limits the min/max number of existing strike tiles that Frank will destroy with successive uses.

As for his red at 3 vs. 5, it may not be the huge deal I originally made it out to be when this thread first started but it's nice to have, and again, definitely something that comes in handy against level 240 PVE enemies as well as buffed villains in Lightning.

For those who don't have 13 covers in their possession yet, it may make sense to wait things out at 3/5/3 until guys like beezer37_84 post more observations about their builds. I'll continue to post about 5/5/3 as I observe anything notable. I originally planned to take the guy all the way to 141, but we'll see.

Unknown

I have to agree that 3/5/5 is the ideal build. At least for me.

If you need Black + Attack Tiles that badly, consider using Dr Doom instead.

Spoit

OK, if lvl 5 black doesn't actually increase the initial cast's damage, I guess I'm going 3/5/5. Should have ground the hulk more, doubt the 50k will be possible this time, seems like the leader isn't pulling the pack as much as last time