The ChaHulk meta

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  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards

    It's not just about speed. If it was just a matter of speed my MMR wouldn't have been decreased tresholds on 500 points.
    There are many factors that make this meta unpleasant.
    And as I already said it should'nt be a matter of countering them.
    It should'nt be a matter of countering always a particular team, on first place.
    When that happens is because there is a real issue and players should'nt be adapting to a problem which devs created, as the only way to fight this meta.

  • skittledaddy
    skittledaddy Posts: 1,013 Chairperson of the Boards

    @KGB said:

    @Sekilicious said:
    There is a thread on Reddit complaining about lack of variety in PvP and more than a few of the posts are about Polaris. I’m not sure how many of the forum members here are real 4* players (KGB and Skittledaddy don’t qualify anymore, lol).

    Hey Now!

    I'm still a 4* player as long as continue to see 4* MRR opponents.

    4* MMR (at least mine in the L350 range) consists of the following:
    1) Polaris
    2) JThor
    3) Chasm
    4) Weekly Boosted 5*

    Roughly 9/10 teams fall into that category and often you see them combined (ie JThor + Polaris or Chasm + Polaris or boosted 5* + Chasm and so on). The final 1/10 team is something other than those 4 above. Less than 1/20 teams is dual 4* boosted.

    The 5* I do see are rarely fully covered (until I hit 600+ points) but typically have 6-10 covers to they are useful. And yes, I see ChaHulk teams once I hit 800ish points and get close to breaking MMR.

    I can still reach 25 wins but it takes a LOT of skips to get there now plus a lot of health pack it never used to require.

    KGB

    Not surprisingly, same experience here. Maybe you can just call KGB, myself, and the other soft-cappers the High 4* MMR.

    I hardly ever see Chasm, and the few times I do it's an easy skip because there are plenty of other options to queue.
    The majority of what I see in my MMR is Polaris partnered with an undercovered Jane.
    The Chasm meta didn't propagate down to our MMR yet, and now that he is out of Latests, it may not ever happen.
    It sure is nice to throw my own fully-covered Chasm/iHulk, out though for easy floating. Not many in my MMR even bother touching that, and most that do end up wiping to it.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    For years, players have been complaining about how MPQ is Marvel Passive Quest. All players need to do each battle is to match, match, fire high damage power, or match, match while passive attack triggers each turn, or match, match, increase damage by crazy amount and the match ends.

    The dev brought back the Puzzle in Marvel Puzzle Quest by giving us Chasm. With Chasm, you can't match, match and do any of the above. Players need to think consciously and strategise before they match.

    It reminds me of the time when the dev brought back Heroics and players complained how the requirements were restrictive. When was the last time Heroic event was run? Or when Places of Power was released, it was a mini-puzzle that required alliances to work together to figure out the optimal route. In the end, many players were unhappy when the ex-dev didn't reveal the answer to the puzzle before the event starts.

    Let's be honest, players are not interested in a real Puzzle. Why bother asking the dev to shake up events by coming up with different win conditions? And I want to say that Puzzle Ops is not a true puzzle because the mode is either too easy or too luck based.

    Anyway, we can only agree to disagree on available counters to Chasm/iHulk team. You'll continue to wait for the "right" Chasm/iHulk counter while I continue to use my counter team that puts a target on my back and also to help me hit 1200 in 18-22 wins. >:)

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,564 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2022

    I'm not seeing the same on-season point drops in my bracket. I'm in Slice 1 for Namora, and with 1d 8hrs left, the top 10 range from 1000pts up to 1429. The event we just finished, even though I chose not to grind up past 900, it looked like the folks up top were still way over full progression on points like usual. But there could be a delta between the top 10 and everyone else I wasn't looking at.

    the t10 in my PVP Season standings ranges from 3,926 up to 6,263, and we've only got the one pick-2 that's closed, simulator, and the current Namora to have gotten that many across, so on average we're looking at 2,000pts/event which surely isnt the real spread.

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2022

    @ThaRoadWarrior said:
    I'm not seeing the same on-season point drops in my bracket. I'm in Slice 1 for Namora, and with 1d 8hrs left, the top 10 range from 1000pts up to 1429. The event we just finished, even though I chose not to grind up past 900, it looked like the folks up top were still way over full progression on points like usual. But there could be a delta between the top 10 and everyone else I wasn't looking at.

    the t10 in my PVP Season standings ranges from 3,926 up to 6,263, and we've only got the one pick-2 that's closed, simulator, and the current Namora to have gotten that many across, so on average we're looking at 2,000pts/event which surely isnt the real spread.

    Top end in Cyclops PVP was close to 3k.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2022

    Deathlok is actually the best counter against Chasm/iHulk in 4* land because he could:

    1) help his team gain up to 3 aps in the team top 2 strongest colour every turn, which means up to 6 aps per turn
    2) increase ally damage dealt by fixed amount, up to 10x. In 4* land it's 348*10 = 3480.
    3) reduces AoE by 25% and single target damage by 40%
    4) Switch to pseudo-passive AoE mode for 5-turn.

    Unfortunately, initial impression I get from players is that he's a SC-wannabe. However, if you are a 4* player reading this, he's a really good counter. You could pair him with Silk to get passive healing and damage going on every turn. You probably get 1+1 ap per turn but Chasm will forever be trapped in a loop reducing the top colour by up to 3 while you are happily matching away other coloured tiles without it being reduced as long as the right character is tanking.

    Now, if Deathlok is a 5*, he will hard counter Chasm/iHulk to death. If Deathlok is increasing ally damage by up to 3480 @ level 270 as a 4*, it's likely to be as high as 17k-20k per turn for 5*. However, he would get into the 5* nerf list for being broken by slowing down matches and gaining free aps for his allies every turn. It's like dealing with 5* Gambit Version 1.0 + 5* SW combined.

    Here's the video:

    https://streamable.com/6o4ywc

    You can replace SW with other appropriate characters. Look at how useless Chasm has become when Deathlok is in the match.

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards

    @HoundofShadow said:

    Anyway, we can only agree to disagree on available counters to Chasm/iHulk team. You'll continue to wait for the "right" Chasm/iHulk counter while I continue to use my counter team that puts a target on my back and also to help me hit 1200 in 18-22 wins. >:)

    Great for you, if your MMR lets you enjoy the new meta and the queues still worth more than 60 points.
    Personally I will get ~500 points and t50 and the extra amount of time gained I will play another fun game I've found meanwhile.
    You think highly on devs bringing the puzzle back, I think more about a lack of testing the character with Ihulk, something that we pointed on his release but probably they didn't notice and they didn't want to listen.
    Ultimately the game is the one losing with bad decisions, sadly.

  • Bowgentle
    Bowgentle Posts: 7,926 Chairperson of the Boards

    @Bad said:

    @HoundofShadow said:

    Anyway, we can only agree to disagree on available counters to Chasm/iHulk team. You'll continue to wait for the "right" Chasm/iHulk counter while I continue to use my counter team that puts a target on my back and also to help me hit 1200 in 18-22 wins. >:)

    Great for you, if your MMR lets you enjoy the new meta and the queues still worth more than 60 points.
    Personally I will get ~500 points and t50 and the extra amount of time gained I will play another fun game I've found meanwhile.
    You think highly on devs bringing the puzzle back, I think more about a lack of testing the character with Ihulk, something that we pointed on his release but probably they didn't notice and they didn't want to listen.
    Ultimately the game is the one losing with bad decisions, sadly.

    Lol that was a quick turnaround from "YOU'RE THE BEST, BCS, I LOVE YOU SO MUCH!"

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2022

    This is what the dev said before Chasm was revealed

    "We're super excited about this character! Really looking forward to talking more about ??? when we make the official reveal. As for power complexity, we felt particularly comfortable about ability nuance because they are all passive. This is definitely a character that players can jump in and have a blast just matching tiles with, but the skillcap has the potential to be very high for those that want to be more methodical about their strategy.

    Thanks for receiving the ability descriptions well! We're doing our best to create characters that are interesting. Part of that means being bold and experimental. Part of that means embracing that this game has a huge roster of characters and abilities which sometimes means some extra depth to make these characters really stand out in the crowd!"

    @Bad Edit: I went to read the first few pages of Chasm thread, and it's funny to see how you were so excited about Chasm shaking up the meta to completely hating him now. :D

    Also, up till mid October, no one was talking about playing against iHulk/Chasm at all. Players were talking about Chasm was easy to beat. The last post was made in November 1 talking about how pvp is boring. This is the time where Chasm/iHulk hits pvps.

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards

    @HoundofShadow said:

    @Bad Edit: I went to read the first few pages of Chasm thread, and it's funny to see how you were so excited about Chasm shaking up the meta to completely hating him now. :D

    And did you lose your time to go and read that? :D
    I'm usually excited about any 5* release so you could had save that.
    Also I remember I said this character has passives worthy of a 6*, so I wasn't really off.
    By the way, I see you all quite happy with my last words ;) but this isn't the first time I do this. On hulkoye era I went for 500 points too, as I think I never signed in any contract forcing me to play pvp if I find it boring. I resumed playing for all points after SW was released, though,and I will do it again if pvp regains it diversity.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    What it proves is that Chasm is useless without iHulk, after seeing players saying how it wasn't difficult to beat him. The question is, who brought iHulk/Chasm into pvp. In Chasm thread, players were coming up with different fun teams for Chasm. :D

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,564 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2022

    I recall being curious if Black Bolt would help you empty out your AP at the time before we'd seen him in action lol. Those were the days...

    I do agree though that if Hulk weren't in the picture, Chasm is a non-factor in most battles.

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards

    The very next release was Shulk, another zombie although capped.
    So this proves they thought developing the revive meta further was a good idea.
    BCS it's doing great and it's betting on characters shaking the meta however they should provide counters quickier so the rock paper system can prevail and the meta doesn't stale.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    There are already counters available but you are choosy.The Chasm/iHulk just started in mid October, and you want them to provide hard counter in a couple of months. Players will then wonder, "Why bother chasing meta when the dev is going to create a counter 1 or 2 releases later?"

    Gambit ran for 8 months(?)
    Bishop -;over a year
    iHulkoye - at least 6 months
    Wanda/Colossus - a few months.

  • Bad
    Bad Posts: 3,146 Chairperson of the Boards

    Ihulk had 2 counters, electro and SW.
    SW and colossus had 2 counters, ultron and gamora.
    Polaris has many counters, two of them morbius and mantis.
    Not sure if any of these countered characters have been less played because there were characters directly countering them.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2022

    It's more of a "when" question. When should a new (hard) counter to meta be created, despite existing working counters being available? Should every meta have a hard counter team a couple of months after its release? If that's the case, is there a point in creating meta since it will be hard countered a couple months later? It takes about 3 months-6 months for someone to champ a batch of 5*. If the timing is right, it can be done immediately.

    IHulk's hard counter came out 1 year later.
    Wanda/Colossus counter came out 6-7 months later.
    It is said that Chasm is a hard counter to Wanda/Colossus, and it came out ~ 1 year later.

    Chasm's counter, Riri, came out in November. From what I see, Chasm/iHulk became a problem only in mid-October. During those 2-3 months, players were talking about how it wasn't difficult to beat Chasm. We are only about 1.5 months in into Chasm/iHulk meta.

  • ThaRoadWarrior
    ThaRoadWarrior Posts: 9,564 Chairperson of the Boards

    Chasm alone is a non-issue, he's very beatable. It really is the pair of them that are "ai proof," meaning the AI can play them the way it plays everyone and really can't mess it up.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    Is it really a bad thing that once in a while, we get challenging AI teams? How often does such thing happen in MPQ? It's rare. The AI has already been nerfed since the start of it existence, and they can't do a lot of things that players can do. That's why players have been mowing down without much difficulty, except for certain circumstances like lack of roster etc.

    Ultimately, it depends on individual. I find that Chasm/iHulk presents a good amount of challenge and allows me to think out of the box. Obviously, some hates it. It's just sad to see how majority of players in reddit in one of the thread suggested skip as an option because they are victims of meta-slave. They don't know what to do when their meta stop working.

  • Omegased
    Omegased Posts: 626 Critical Contributor

    I know this thread has been going for while - so in case people are coming in looking for teams... one of the teams I think i read 18 or so pages ago was Colossus/Elektra/Electro. Electro negates ihulks damage, and generates 5 yellow per tern, Elektra's traps give a good smooshing to the opponents.

    wail on ihulk until he's stronger than all, then take out chasm, etc.... if you're very fancy, you can get ihulk to trigger 3 of elektras traps in one turn, effectively taking down everyone (altho not necessary).

    I also found some success in taking big hitters that DONT tank all powers. so if you big hitter isn't in front, they may have an easier time generating AP.

  • HoundofShadow
    HoundofShadow Posts: 8,004 Chairperson of the Boards

    Pick-3 is pretty easy. There are over 20 counters available. It's pick-2 that is making some unhappy.

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