The ChaHulk meta

ThaRoadWarrior

There are loads of stun immune good characters now, so a stun lock meta seems unlikely to arise to me.

HoundofShadow

There aren't a lot of good ones in the game, based on general perceptions.

5-star
Silver Surfer, Moon Knight, Apocalypse (with Mutants), Dr Ock.

Out of this list, only Apocalypse makes the cut.

KK can clear stun and go airborne.
Black Panther benefits from being stunned. If I'm really getting stunned every other turn, I would throw in 5* Emma to boost Black Panther's damage.

4-star
Hydra Stomper, Peggy Carter (with Hydra Stomper)

If you could loosen your requirements, characters who go airborne for 1 turn is considered immune to stun somewhat.

Then, we would have
5*: C5rol, Riri, KK
4*: Vulture, Ikaris, Riri, Throg, Black Knight, Nico's partner (can't remember her name) and probably a few more
3*: Colossus (throw ally)

I'm still waiting for my trap meta and waiting for the day where players ask trap meta to be nerfed.

ThaRoadWarrior

Come join me in ushering in the proto trap meta in this spider-man PVP by running Sinister and boosted JJ. This is possible and fun due to the general lack of chasm/hulk teams in rotation.

GrimSkald

I'm up to near 500 and have seen two - I expect that I'll see nothing but the team above 800 or so, particularly since Chasm's web tiles help Spider-man's stun, and Chasm tanks everything for Spider-man so those AP pools don't get drained.

Been running them myself. I'm pretty sure the only time my opponent has gotten a power of any kind off is when I wasn't. Maybe once or twice?

ThaRoadWarrior

Because I climbed to 700 or so using a highly beatable team, I’ve mostly been farming retaliations that have overwhelmingly just been boosted pair variations.

GrimSkald

@GrimSkald said:
I'm up to near 500 and have seen two - I expect that I'll see nothing but the team above 800 or so, particularly since Chasm's web tiles help Spider-man's stun, and Chasm tanks everything for Spider-man so those AP pools don't get drained.

Been running them myself. I'm pretty sure the only time my opponent has gotten a power of any kind off is when I wasn't. Maybe once or twice?

Oh, check that, two hulk/chasm and at least one she-hulk/chasm, which is definitely the worse team.

Honestly, it boggles my mind that the worst resurrection character out there has a limit on how many times she can resurrect. Not only that, but she only returns at the end of the turn, and her powers are tinykitty.

Sekilicious

Well, at the time of Shulk’s release, she was the only one the developers could limit without it being considered a nerf. But yeah, the revive meta would be pretty different if iHulk could only be revived 3 times.

KGB

@GrimSkald said:
Honestly, it boggles my mind that the worst resurrection character out there has a limit on how many times she can resurrect. Not only that, but she only returns at the end of the turn, and her powers are tinykitty.

As a 4* player I love her for pick 3 PvE in CL10. Her/Polaris/BrB can go Winfinite pretty fast thanks to her Green. I can beat most of the CL10 challenge nodes too all the way to 650 if I boost Blue/Green to get the engine running faster since she can revive up to 3 times.

KGB

StanleyBurrell

I see them from the moment I start until I’ve had enough, it’s beyond lame.

Bad

So the first slice for my MMR on this off season pvp has ended. Results are like this:
Pvp starting sunday: 850 points for t50
Starting~ tuesday: 750 points for t50
Starting~wednesday: 630 points for t50.
On a usual off season weekend (before the chahulk meta), depending on rewards 1200 and x points would always be t50, perhaps 1350 would be t25.
And in all these pvps ~550 points a guaranteed t100 (before chahulk a guaranteed t200).
Obviously (and no one should deny) the side effects of these leaderboards aren't benefitial for the game.

HoundofShadow

Seeing how you don't seem to be pleased with Chasm not getting nerfed, are you going to quit pvps until Chasm is nerfed or are you going to play 10 minutes mirror matches for the rest of the season? The next 5* releases on Dec 17, and you'll probably get to champ the new 5* somewhere in mid-Jan 2023, provided that this upcoming 5* counters Chasm or the revival meta.

Bad

You are quite assuming a good amount of things here.
First, I have a 465 chasm and I don't want him to be nerfed, although I almost never play him because I think he's not interesting.
Second, if chasm gets a hard counter it will be because he deserves it (and ideally players concercing about the game should indicate this situation asap).
Third, I'm not doing 10 minutes battles(if chasm isn't boosted).
My experience and skill fighting chahulk teams goes roughly like this:
First 20 matches: it was challenging.
Seconds 20 matches more: it was fun.
Thirds 20 matches more: at least it was points worthy.
Fourths 100 matches more: it doesn't worths more than 45 points, it's boring and slow.

And finally, imo this game wasn't developed for having to counter a single team.
Now there are godboost weekly, and 110 levels, a theorically maxed character, until now made a difference. Not for the chahulk team.
Historically when there has been a similar situation like this one, something has been done, and exactly that's what I want.

HoundofShadow

I wonder what hard counter and soft counter mean in MPQ. I actually googled these two definitions, and looking at the replies from various game forums, it doesn't seem like there is a widely agreed consensus on what these two mean.

Chasm/iHulk is a revive meta. Silver Surfer kills the revive meta and he's immune to stun. If you throw Electro or Wanda together, Wouldn't they make this a hard counter team? Stun team incapitates Chasm and iHulk, rendering them helpless, wouldn't they be considered hard counter team?

ThaRoadWarrior

Chasm/iHulk is more than a revive meta, it's also an AP denial meta and a start of battle passive denial meta. Silver Surfer's powers cost too much to get fired during a match, hard stop. He is not a counter to Chasm specifically, but in fact Chasm is a hard counter to any character that needs more than 5AP to fire a power and/or who derives their own value from a start-of-battle passive. He works fine against hulk on any other team. I would say that if ALL chasm was was a revive meta you'd have LOADS of options to deal with him, there are many very good AOE powers at the 5* tier. But none of them are cheap enough to fire off, and most of them live on the top color.

HoundofShadow

And to add on, do people want:

1) a single character or
2) a pick-2

who can counter everything

1) Chasm can do? Or
2) Chasm/iHulk can do?

I mean, it has been proven that Chasm is useless without iHulk. IHulk has been countered to death by Wanda/Electro.

Chasm can
1) Create character tile, called the Abyss tile, which can't be targeted by power that removes special tiles
2) Heal based on number of web tiles
3) Revives if and only if there are 3 or 4 Abyss tiles
4) reduce 2-3 front enemy aps in order of
Strongest colour to weakest colour, whichever colour has at least 1 ap in it.
5) Increased match damage based on certain formula
6) deals extra damage but also deals damage to himself.
7) give opponent free matches when he's downed

If you're aware of how Chasm choose to reduce aps or how he prioritises colours to destroy, and when his ap reduction occurs, you'll be able to fire power that cost more than 5aps.

If a single character can hard counter almost everything that Chasm is doing, wouldn't he be broken?

1) Target and destroy any tile
2) high damage permanent damage or cheap ability that prevents healing
3) prevents revive
4) gain at least 3 ap in strongest colour passively every turn
5) reduce match damage passively
6) reduce passive damage

GrimSkald

@ThaRoadWarrior said:
Chasm/iHulk is more than a revive meta, it's also an AP denial meta and a start of battle passive denial meta. Silver Surfer's powers cost too much to get fired during a match, hard stop. He is not a counter to Chasm specifically, but in fact Chasm is a hard counter to any character that needs more than 5AP to fire a power and/or who derives their own value from a start-of-battle passive. He works fine against hulk on any other team. I would say that if ALL chasm was was a revive meta you'd have LOADS of options to deal with him, there are many very good AOE powers at the 5* tier. But none of them are cheap enough to fire off, and most of them live on the top color.

This summarizes the issue with Chasm pretty well. The issue is not that he's unbeatable - obviously he's not, but the issue is that Chasm is an effective counter to any team that requires AP to fire their effective powers, which is 90% of them. When I switch to Chasm in my PVP climb, in general the AI gets one or two powers off at most. Players will do better, but you're still never going to fire a power more than 6 or 7 AP at the right time unless the stars align or you do massive boardshake every turn and get reasonably lucky.

iHulk is there to make the timing a pain in the tinykitty. With iHulk you need to fire a power at just the right time to down Chasm when he has few void tiles out, or else an AoE that takes out both characters. Now see Chasm's AP drain above.

I would say that Chasm's AP drain mechanic is what breaks him in the first place and makes him overpowered. It's too big, it basically cancels out normal match AP completely, which is a significant portion of your AP gain. The "revive" meta makes him even worse, and allows you to take on pretty much any team with passive damage.

It's a bit weird, I was kind of disappointed when I saw that we're not getting any 4* PVPs coming up - despite the fact that there are plenty of excuses - rebalances, movie tie-ins, etc. But then I tought, "Hey, it doesn't really matter, you won't actually fire their powers anyway."

I'm not one to call for a nerf, since the 5* tier came into being I've only ever thought Gambit and Bishop really needed a nerf (4* Captain America was not super bad to get around, but I'll say he probably needed one too.) People gripe about Colossus/SW, Okoye/iHulk, even Panther/Thanos, but I never really agreed with them. Chasm needs a nerf - he makes it really hard to use active powers, which is the whole point of playing the game.

Sekilicious

You guys need to run Chasm with mThor and MEHulk. If you focus on matching black every round you are swimming in all other ap, since the other two just passively collect it. I wish hulk had a green outlet but whatever. In pick-2, I target Chasm whenever paired with anyone but iHulk using Chasm and mThor. Chasm is basically immortal in mirror matches, but I can bring a MBW stun and/or mThor nukes if the web tiles get too ridiculous. I skip iHulk because there are enough other opponents available until I start shield hopping at 9xx, and I do not have a counter to the AoE damage yet.

ThaRoadWarrior

It's not just that he destroys your AP, it's that void tiles are worth 0 ap when you match them, and they proliferate real quick against the high level chasms I see, so after a few turns basic match 3 moves are worth 0ap sometimes, and matching his void tiles means more webs, which in turn means a basic match 3 can return more health to Chasm than you debit.

Things you can do in a counter character that won't entail a chasm nerf: passive charge tiles like bolt and Jane - they are worth 3x ap, so they can help you on a dry board where there aren't cascade or match-4 options, and they are something that can be used against you so it's not entirely 1 sided

Penalize enemies for regaining health, passively or attached to a tile that can be targeted

Mocking-bird style "fire a friendly power for free when X happens" type power that isn't tied to banked up AP, unless that AP is team up

retaliate when stunned like 5* widow or 5* Panther, except do it when you are stunned and make it actually matter (retaliatory stun, airborne toss, BIG damage, permanent health reduction, something that will work, tuned to not be OP)

I'd be fine with a pick-2 solution, because I have everybody champed, but it's important to remember Chasm is affecting all levels of play, so a multi-part 5* only solution might take a 4* player 4 years to cover. So if they are seeing partially covered Chasms, this counter needs to be something that will work similarly partially covered for them.

ThaRoadWarrior

@Sekilicious said:
You guys need to run Chasm with mThor and MEHulk. If you focus on matching black every round you are swimming in all other ap, since the other two just passively collect it. I wish hulk had a green outlet but whatever. In pick-2, I target Chasm whenever paired with anyone but iHulk using Chasm and mThor. Chasm is basically immortal in mirror matches, but I can bring a MBW stun and/or mThor nukes if the web tiles get too ridiculous. I skip iHulk because there are enough other opponents available until I start shield hopping at 9xx, and I do not have a counter to the AoE damage yet.

I don't think any of us are having issues in Pick-3, and all the proposed "workable" pick-2 teams I've seen in here and tried myself are at best skin of your teeth wins when I do it.

Gladiator Thor at half health + somebody with a strong red/green/yellow was actually able to gather AP faster than Chasm could deplete it. he is, of course, super vulnerable to iHulk though, so you have to manage the green that's in play pretty aggressively for a few turns or you'll lose him.

Kolence

Let's say you (a player) are fighting a team with Chasm, and for whatever reason, you wish to use a non-mirror-match team. Chasm will drain 3 AP from you each turn. You can only count on making 3 AP in a turn with certainty, unless you have a passive way of cascading or generating AP from thin air (like Thor or Gambit, respectively, for instance). The rest is luck. There's also the option to start with boosts, and that can allow you to fire 1 or 2 cheap-ish abilities early on, but it won't last long.
It's an uphill battle, and it is no wonder more and more people are getting tired of it.

I'd like a reliable counter, though I wouldn't mind toning down a little bit Chasm's abilities. But then, which part? Is he making abyss tiles too quickly? Those also reduce overall AP generation from matches. Is he making too many web tiles? Is the combination of the two mechanics eating up basic tiles and choking the board? Can these even be slowed down without making Chasm on his own much too slow?

As far as a counter play goes, there's stuns left too. But those can be unfun in their own way, if heavily used.

In the end, I'd like to offer an example of possible soft counter abilities, hypothetically slapped onto say Black Suit Spidey. In my mind, something like that should work as a counter for Chasm (paired with Hulk, possibly).

Spider-Man (Back in Business)

reorder purple strongest?

Taek-web-do
POWER COST 6
Spider-Man unleashes a vicious flurry of precision kicks and acrobatic flips, striking his enemy's weakest points. He converts up to 5 basic tiles of a chosen color to Web tiles. Then, if he is invisible, he deals 10672 damage to the target. Otherwise, he stuns the target for 1 turn and deals 5429 damage.
(PASSIVE) During his turn, if there is a color which has at least 2 Web tiles but no basic tiles left, Spider-Man turns all the tiles of that color to basic tiles, adds a turn of stun to a random enemy for every 2 Web tiles removed, and gains 1 Green AP for each other tile so removed.

Automotive Artillery
POWER COST 14
Spotting his target in the distance, Spider-Man grabs a nearby parked car and hurls a 2 ton fastball at his opponent. Deals 39183 damage to the target enemy, 1gnoring the effects of any Protect tiles, and stuns a random enemy for 4 turns.
(PASSIVE) Whenever Spider-Man takes damage while invisible, he makes 2 Web tiles on the attacker's strongest color. When a Web tile is matched by the enemy, he makes a strength 345 Protect tile.

Shadowy Acrobatics - NO CHANGE
POWER COST 0
(PASSIVE) Peter darts through the shadows, using his foe's cofusion to disappear completely. Enemy Strike tiles add 100% less damage (to a minimum of 1). While at least one enemy is Stunned, Spider-Man is Invisible.