Feedback Wanted: Character Balance

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Comments

  • marshallmarshall Posts: 172 Tile Toppler
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    Bishop just does too much - jump in front on single damage or cumulative damage, generates 5 AP, does high damage, stuns in two turns. Very hard to fight him without specific characters.
  • bluewolfbluewolf Posts: 4,910 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    marshall said:
    Bishop just does too much - jump in front on single damage or cumulative damage, generates 5 AP, does high damage, stuns in two turns. Very hard to fight him without specific characters.
    You forgot about destroying AP when he stuns you.
  • ThaRoadWarriorThaRoadWarrior Posts: 4,552 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 25 January 2020, 04:08
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    Just wanted to chime in and remind @fight4thedream that Archangel can stop enemy AP gain, even passive gain, via Aerial Superiority, but since it costs 7 black it remains as much a misfire against Bishop and CapHawk as it did against OG gambit.

    also right now my 5* counter to both those 4* characters is Profe$$or X + Okoye and +2 team up going in, and a small goat sacrifice to RNGeezuz there is a match-n around on turn 1 or 2. 
  • SpudgutterSpudgutter Posts: 726 Critical Contributor
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    I’m sorry, but who is saying anything about rewards? Contrary to popular belief, it’s not just about rewards for some people. Some people care about how the game itself plays. All of us clamoring for the return of gauntlet aren’t doing so for those sweet sweet rewards. Being stunlocked 4 turns while your team gets obliterated is simply unfun. And a character getting 30 AP on turn 0 is broken. 

    “The number of bishop or hammer teams vary from at least 3, to maybe 10, that I skip around in my 18-25 matches.”

    If that’s your way of “handling” them, then what that means to me is those players get a free shield. I mean I do the same (both use Bish as my shield and skip other Bish teams) so I’m not judging. Just pointing out that this is what people mean by “free shield”. 

    To your last point... I could run any team and not know how many chose to skip me and who hit me just to avoid Bishop and top tier 5. I know for me I would skip a Bishop/Goblin team in favor of hitting a Thorkoye or Gritty team easily. Which is kind of crazy. But Bish is that good (and Gobby is underrated!). 

    I also skip people that are way into the 515+ levels and above, way more than the number of bishop i see.  Should we nerf their roster as well, since their level advantage has me give them a "free" shield?

    I also want people to enjoy how they play, which is why i am listening to those that say bishop helps them punch up or deal with gritty.  The point of bringing up the rewards is that everyone is still getting what they want out of the game.  You are asking them to remove something that is basically annoying to you, while not taking into account how it may hurt others.  So what if they get a "free" shield? How is that impacting your play?  Do you also think we should remove names from pvp, to reduce outside communication for shield hops?  *edit*

    And goblin is fun, but a) i don't think many people believe he is top tier and b) i believe you would get hit a ton if you ran that team.

    Edit*  I'm dumb, this is a thread about fixing characters, so this dialogue is exactly what they are looking for, so i took out that last line.  Heck, who made me the arbiter for the game either?  Opinions are meant to be shared, even when we disagree 
    1- The 515 rosters aren’t getting a free shield. They’re getting hit by other 515 rosters. Also, see: Wise Man’s wise post. Apples and oranges. 

    2- You want people to “enjoy how they play” but are against players wanting something removed that they find annoying (to use your words). Do you NOT see the contradiction here? I don’t know how many things you find annoying (I’d personally use a stronger word) but also enjoyable. I also haven’t heard many players say the ENJOY using Bishop. I’ve heard people say they rely on him/need him to reach their goals, punch up, deal with Kitty, ward off attacks (free shield). But,  I haven’t heard people say they enjoy him. I find him to be one of those unfun characters to both play and play against personally. 

    3- “The point of bringing up the rewards is that everyone is still getting what they want out of the game.” 

    Again, you don’t get it. Getting 900/1200 is not the only thing I want out of this game. In between the parts where I collect my rewards there’s this whole other part of the game where I’m matching tiles and firing powers. That part of the game is MUCH less enjoyable for me as a 5* player with Bishop in the mix.  This has nothing to do with “getting my rewards”. I’ve already explained this and you’re still beating the same drum. You say you want the game to be more enjoyable. Bishop makes my game less enjoyable. 

    4- Yes! Absolutely remove names from PVP. I’m constantly hitting friendlies because I still don’t look at names and have irked more than a few people (truly sorry to anyone here I may have attacked).  I’m not in any Shield Check rooms, and while I don’t think you could shut down down outside communication, removing names would make it way harder to coordinate. So I’m on board. Don’t know what it had to do with this topic.  Seems really off topic.  But you asked so I’m answering. 
     



    i've seen several people say they enjoy him, in other threads and this one.  you  just seem to have blinders on and don't want to see them.  purplemur, kgb, fight, etc.  I'm starting to think less about nerf/buff and more about how better mmr and pvp in general would probably solve more than half the problems.

    3

    don't use him, and skip past him.  It is really that easy, I promise.  you do that, and you are no longer annoyed by the game, and can stop worrying about how it impacts others.  we are *both* beating the same drums, so agree to disagree.


  • DAZ0273DAZ0273 Posts: 4,403 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    Add me to the list who enjoys using Bishop. Him and Sabretooth against Gritty teams is great fun. I can't say the same for Worthy Cap though, all those countdown tiles is tedious.
  • HoundofShadowHoundofShadow Posts: 3,255 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    I'm interested to know the results of the last in-game survey about character balances etc. I wonder if it could be revealed here, even though the players have a higher chance of winning PowerBall than knowing the results. But still...  :|
  • SpudgutterSpudgutter Posts: 726 Critical Contributor
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    There has to be a way to set it to a clock, though, right?  I get my daily log in at 942am every day(1042 during dst), so maybe set it to 30 minutes, if no activity, it loses the connection?  Or, like in pve, if i start a match and end it after the slice ends, the points don't count.  I'm not asking for indefinite matches, just would love to try to solve puzzles.  As it is, the game is designed to be quick, and be defensive, thus the conundrum we are in

    The other thing would be if you did pause yourself into a free shield(for an amount of time to be determined), you can't queue anyone else, you can't see what place you are in, and you can't play pve.
    Ok but as long as I immediately load a match I dont lose points as long as I just keep playing?  Or people can maybe find me the 4 seconds between matches but then when  I enter a match I cant get hit?  So what happens to the guy who just loaded me up in a match?  He gets nothing?  Or does he get points and I lose no points?  If I spend 2 hours trading hits with the exact same person but we make sure we're both in match when the other one finishes, do we both take no hits?  Actually that wouldnt work, but if you had 3 guys it would, in a train.  You think pvp coordination is bad now?  You think repeating queues are bad now?  Wait til everyone's invisible all the time except to their friends.  You wont get past seeds.
    I don't know, but if we are dreaming/speculating about some sort of fix to pvp that involves this scenario, sure, i have a couple ideas.

    i play another game that loads 3 opponent teams, showing their strength, rank, etc, for their version of pvp.  I've had it happen where i've looked at them, then went to choose one, and the game tells me that person is currently under attack, and refreshes the 3 opponents.  It doesn't happen often, but it is something that is possible in the mobile gaming universe.  that's part of why i suggested it.  it's highly unlikely, but hopefully if they are reading this far down into the comments and also possibly designing mpq2, they take the suggestion and go with it for the infrastructure for the next game.

    also, i mentioned a time limit.  again, copied from that other game where you have 5 minutes.  Now, admittedly, i am not a huge fan of this concept.  i like being able to pause a match if i need to answer the phone, go into another room, etc, but maybe a 30 minute clock?  sure, you can't be hit or even queued during that time, but you also aren't making any progress either.  I'm just spit-balling to help all the people that get to 875 points, play one match, and come out at 750.  
  • A_Wise_ManA_Wise_Man Posts: 153 Tile Toppler
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    There has to be a way to set it to a clock, though, right?  I get my daily log in at 942am every day(1042 during dst), so maybe set it to 30 minutes, if no activity, it loses the connection?  Or, like in pve, if i start a match and end it after the slice ends, the points don't count.  I'm not asking for indefinite matches, just would love to try to solve puzzles.  As it is, the game is designed to be quick, and be defensive, thus the conundrum we are in

    The other thing would be if you did pause yourself into a free shield(for an amount of time to be determined), you can't queue anyone else, you can't see what place you are in, and you can't play pve.
    Ok but as long as I immediately load a match I dont lose points as long as I just keep playing?  Or people can maybe find me the 4 seconds between matches but then when  I enter a match I cant get hit?  So what happens to the guy who just loaded me up in a match?  He gets nothing?  Or does he get points and I lose no points?  If I spend 2 hours trading hits with the exact same person but we make sure we're both in match when the other one finishes, do we both take no hits?  Actually that wouldnt work, but if you had 3 guys it would, in a train.  You think pvp coordination is bad now?  You think repeating queues are bad now?  Wait til everyone's invisible all the time except to their friends.  You wont get past seeds.
    I don't know, but if we are dreaming/speculating about some sort of fix to pvp that involves this scenario, sure, i have a couple ideas.

    i play another game that loads 3 opponent teams, showing their strength, rank, etc, for their version of pvp.  I've had it happen where i've looked at them, then went to choose one, and the game tells me that person is currently under attack, and refreshes the 3 opponents.  It doesn't happen often, but it is something that is possible in the mobile gaming universe.  that's part of why i suggested it.  it's highly unlikely, but hopefully if they are reading this far down into the comments and also possibly designing mpq2, they take the suggestion and go with it for the infrastructure for the next game.

    also, i mentioned a time limit.  again, copied from that other game where you have 5 minutes.  Now, admittedly, i am not a huge fan of this concept.  i like being able to pause a match if i need to answer the phone, go into another room, etc, but maybe a 30 minute clock?  sure, you can't be hit or even queued during that time, but you also aren't making any progress either.  I'm just spit-balling to help all the people that get to 875 points, play one match, and come out at 750.  
    Oh.  Well, this was fixed a year or two ago.  You dont need 900 points, just 40 wins.  It's much easier to do 40 wins and nobody can take a win away.  It's the perfect system, really.
  • SpudgutterSpudgutter Posts: 726 Critical Contributor
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    There has to be a way to set it to a clock, though, right?  I get my daily log in at 942am every day(1042 during dst), so maybe set it to 30 minutes, if no activity, it loses the connection?  Or, like in pve, if i start a match and end it after the slice ends, the points don't count.  I'm not asking for indefinite matches, just would love to try to solve puzzles.  As it is, the game is designed to be quick, and be defensive, thus the conundrum we are in

    The other thing would be if you did pause yourself into a free shield(for an amount of time to be determined), you can't queue anyone else, you can't see what place you are in, and you can't play pve.
    Ok but as long as I immediately load a match I dont lose points as long as I just keep playing?  Or people can maybe find me the 4 seconds between matches but then when  I enter a match I cant get hit?  So what happens to the guy who just loaded me up in a match?  He gets nothing?  Or does he get points and I lose no points?  If I spend 2 hours trading hits with the exact same person but we make sure we're both in match when the other one finishes, do we both take no hits?  Actually that wouldnt work, but if you had 3 guys it would, in a train.  You think pvp coordination is bad now?  You think repeating queues are bad now?  Wait til everyone's invisible all the time except to their friends.  You wont get past seeds.
    I don't know, but if we are dreaming/speculating about some sort of fix to pvp that involves this scenario, sure, i have a couple ideas.

    i play another game that loads 3 opponent teams, showing their strength, rank, etc, for their version of pvp.  I've had it happen where i've looked at them, then went to choose one, and the game tells me that person is currently under attack, and refreshes the 3 opponents.  It doesn't happen often, but it is something that is possible in the mobile gaming universe.  that's part of why i suggested it.  it's highly unlikely, but hopefully if they are reading this far down into the comments and also possibly designing mpq2, they take the suggestion and go with it for the infrastructure for the next game.

    also, i mentioned a time limit.  again, copied from that other game where you have 5 minutes.  Now, admittedly, i am not a huge fan of this concept.  i like being able to pause a match if i need to answer the phone, go into another room, etc, but maybe a 30 minute clock?  sure, you can't be hit or even queued during that time, but you also aren't making any progress either.  I'm just spit-balling to help all the people that get to 875 points, play one match, and come out at 750.  
    Oh.  Well, this was fixed a year or two ago.  You dont need 900 points, just 40 wins.  It's much easier to do 40 wins and nobody can take a win away.  It's the perfect system, really.
    Yeah, but i wouldn't call it perfect.  It's an ok solution, but just like they overvalue iso in their store, they overvalue their match count.  I can get to 900 in around 18-20 wins during suboptimal times, where i am mostly hitting for +/- 50 points.  With mmr the way it is, it isn't like i am steamrolling seed teams, i am fighting my equals and usually betters.  28-32 would have been a terrific match count for 900.  35 would have been a decent compromise. 40 is just way too many, considering how many other matches we have to play a day to stay "competitive."
  • OzarkBoatswainOzarkBoatswain Posts: 657 Critical Contributor
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    There is one character that needs to be nerfed: Kitty Pryde. There aren't any characters or teams that counter the team of Kitty plus a good strike and attack tile placer.

    4* Bishop and 4* Cap (Worthy) are also really good. They jump in front during virtually everything, and the passives that get activated are also amazing.

    For buffs, there are two 5*s that have never been any good, and you should know what they are without me saying. There are also a lot of 4*s that used to do competitive damage that have been superceded by more recent characters. Sam Wilson, Kingpin, Thing, Wolverine, Winter Soldier, and Quake are examples. 4*s that are used for purposes other than damage have fared better and are mostly OK.

    I would like more characters that have both strong match-ups and weak match-ups, as in rock-paper-scissors. As in, Dr. Strange beats a character with cheap powers that get used all the time (say, Karoline Dean if she were any good), but that character beats a character that counters high damage powers, and that third character somehow beats Dr. Strange. I can't think of a good in-game example of this. As it is, there are some characters (like Kitty) that are especially good against certain characters (like, say, 3* Iron Fist), but they don't have any character that counters them in turn.
  • 111MCH111111MCH111 Posts: 89 Match Maker
    edited 26 January 2020, 23:17
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    Some B listed 4* or 5* could use some super serum. Don’t nerf. That would be unfair to people that payed a lot to get a certain champion.
  • Daredevil217Daredevil217 Posts: 2,881 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited 26 January 2020, 23:21
    There is one character that needs to be nerfed: Kitty Pryde. There aren't any characters or teams that counter the team of Kitty plus a good strike and attack tile placer.
    Sabretooth, Juggs (for low level Kitties), Thorkoye, 5* Doom, Bishop, Worthy/Hawkeye, Black Suit, Daredevil, mirror match, match the tiles... I’ve also heard of different teams using Rescue, Bill, Carnage (But I don’t have any of them close to champed). You may come away needing some packs with some of these, but most are pretty reliable. Add Bishop as a third and things get much tougher, but just Kitty and a tile maker are pretty manageable. 
  • BriMan2222BriMan2222 Posts: 202 Tile Toppler
    Some characters could use a dusting of nerf powder
    There is one character that needs to be nerfed: Kitty Pryde. There aren't any characters or teams that counter the team of Kitty plus a good strike and attack tile placer.
    Sabretooth, Juggs (for low level Kitties), Thorkoye, 5* Doom, Bishop, Worthy/Hawkeye, Black Suit, Daredevil, mirror match, match the tiles... I’ve also heard of different teams using Rescue, Bill, Carnage (But I don’t have any of them close to champed). You may come away needing some packs with some of these, but most are pretty reliable. Add Bishop as a third and things get much tougher, but just Kitty and a tile maker are pretty manageable. 
    I'll add 5 star panther/thanos to the list.   Keep panther in front,  reduced damage> stun > pounce> court death> repeat.   I look for gritty teams in pvp. Easy wins for me. 
  • ThaRoadWarriorThaRoadWarrior Posts: 4,552 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    Rescue/Bishop can do it, but Rescue is way better with Okoye than without, so that works best in pick 3. 
  • ManoPAManoPA Posts: 20 Just Dropped In
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    Come on, devs... Please, don't nerf Bishop and Cap Worthy. Just buff some characters. Last time the comunity asks to nerf Gambit and it happened, just turn him terrible.
  • sambrookjmsambrookjm Posts: 1,738 Chairperson of the Boards
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    ManoPA said:
    Come on, devs... Please, don't nerf Bishop and Cap Worthy. Just buff some characters. Last time the comunity asks to nerf Gambit and it happened, just turn him terrible.
    We've had one Gambit Nerf, yes...but what about Second Nerf?

    Do you mean the first "nerf" that actually made him more powerful, or the second nerf which almost completely obliterated his usefulness?
  • ManoPAManoPA Posts: 20 Just Dropped In
    edited 27 January 2020, 17:12
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    ManoPA said:
    Come on, devs... Please, don't nerf Bishop and Cap Worthy. Just buff some characters. Last time the comunity asks to nerf Gambit and it happened, just turn him terrible.
    We've had one Gambit Nerf, yes...but what about Second Nerf?

    Do you mean the first "nerf" that actually made him more powerful, or the second nerf which almost completely obliterated his usefulness?
    The second.
  • IIAlonditeIIIIAlonditeII Posts: 149 Tile Toppler
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    The only character I believe needs a nerf is Bishop. There are plenty of characters throughout the 4 and 5 star tier that need huge buffs too. That's a bigger issue to address. There shouldn't be useless characters. There will always be a meta, and as a result there will always be people who only use those characters. But there should never be characters that literally no one uses.
  • thedarkphoenixthedarkphoenix Posts: 494 Mover and Shaker
    edited 27 January 2020, 17:50
    Some characters could use super soldier serum
    nerfing bishop isn't going to make it any easier for any of you.

    Just like nerfing gambit didn't.


    There really isn't a point in nerfing Bishop if they plan on re-balancing other characters as they can create a hard counter in 5 land for bishop with some passive and spend time and money on buffing another character instead of nerfing bishop. 
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