sinnerjfl said: Daredevil217 said: JHawkInc said: Look man, when you've got a field of grass, and one blade is sticking out too far, and you want them to be even, you don't invest energy in trying to grow the entire rest of the field except for that one blade to make them even. You get out your little pair of scissors and do some trimming. I like this analogy. Problem is you are assuming that the field is even. It isn’t. The grass is all over the place from Banner to Gambit. You take out your scissors and go to work.. and... look over there. That Thor blade is way taller than the others. And unlike Gambit he’s best for PVE AND PVP meaning he dominates the entire game and not just one game mode. The field as it were, remains uneven and people who have the best character will use him, and people who don’t will be tinykitty out of luck because they didn’t bust their hoard at the right time. One big difference with Gambit and your example, Thor.Not easy to counter Gambit without your own. You can certainly counter Thor because as long as he's at +50% health, not too difficult to deal with, plan accordingly.
Daredevil217 said: JHawkInc said: Look man, when you've got a field of grass, and one blade is sticking out too far, and you want them to be even, you don't invest energy in trying to grow the entire rest of the field except for that one blade to make them even. You get out your little pair of scissors and do some trimming. I like this analogy. Problem is you are assuming that the field is even. It isn’t. The grass is all over the place from Banner to Gambit. You take out your scissors and go to work.. and... look over there. That Thor blade is way taller than the others. And unlike Gambit he’s best for PVE AND PVP meaning he dominates the entire game and not just one game mode. The field as it were, remains uneven and people who have the best character will use him, and people who don’t will be tinykitty out of luck because they didn’t bust their hoard at the right time.
JHawkInc said: Look man, when you've got a field of grass, and one blade is sticking out too far, and you want them to be even, you don't invest energy in trying to grow the entire rest of the field except for that one blade to make them even. You get out your little pair of scissors and do some trimming.
Daredevil217 said: sinnerjfl said: One big difference with Gambit and your example, Thor.Not easy to counter Gambit without your own. You can certainly counter Thor because as long as he's at +50% health, not too difficult to deal with, plan accordingly. Is Gambit really not easy to counter with your own Gambit? The AI is so dumb that I feel a human mirror team should almost always win.
sinnerjfl said: One big difference with Gambit and your example, Thor.Not easy to counter Gambit without your own. You can certainly counter Thor because as long as he's at +50% health, not too difficult to deal with, plan accordingly.
sinnerjfl said: Daredevil217 said: sinnerjfl said: One big difference with Gambit and your example, Thor.Not easy to counter Gambit without your own. You can certainly counter Thor because as long as he's at +50% health, not too difficult to deal with, plan accordingly. Is Gambit really not easy to counter with your own Gambit? The AI is so dumb that I feel a human mirror team should almost always win. Let me re-phrase for clarity.If you have Gambit on your team, it is easy to defeat other Gambit teams.If you do NOT have Gambit, it is quite problematic to beat Gambit teams (mainly because he generates/destroys AP every single turn without any conditions).
Daiches said: This just in: Offense trumps Defense in a game designed to give the player a 90% win rate over the AI.
Spudgutter said: sinnerjfl said: Daredevil217 said: sinnerjfl said: One big difference with Gambit and your example, Thor.Not easy to counter Gambit without your own. You can certainly counter Thor because as long as he's at +50% health, not too difficult to deal with, plan accordingly. Is Gambit really not easy to counter with your own Gambit? The AI is so dumb that I feel a human mirror team should almost always win. Let me re-phrase for clarity.If you have Gambit on your team, it is easy to defeat other Gambit teams.If you do NOT have Gambit, it is quite problematic to beat Gambit teams (mainly because he generates/destroys AP every single turn without any conditions). Eehhh, i would argue that isnt exactly 100% true. See below: Daiches said: This just in: Offense trumps Defense in a game designed to give the player a 90% win rate over the AI. I keep telling people, i stopped using gambit when i got JJ. Paired with thor, it is just a faster and imo more fun match. I have no problem beating gambit teams. I avoid gambolt teams, but just to save on health packs. And sometimes if he is paired with thanos, they might get lucky and get thor and it can go down hill from there.I think he is a super strong character who could use a tweak, but it is not really that different from the panthos meta, where in order to do well you had to have the same team as a counter. Someone is always going to be on top.
Bowgentle said: Spudgutter said:I think he is a super strong character who could use a tweak, but it is not really that different from the panthos meta, where in order to do well you had to have the same team as a counter. Someone is always going to be on top. You never needed Panthos in that meta.I ran Surfer Bolt for months, that team absolutely destroyed Panthos.
Spudgutter said:I think he is a super strong character who could use a tweak, but it is not really that different from the panthos meta, where in order to do well you had to have the same team as a counter. Someone is always going to be on top.
Spudgutter said: Bowgentle said: Spudgutter said:I think he is a super strong character who could use a tweak, but it is not really that different from the panthos meta, where in order to do well you had to have the same team as a counter. Someone is always going to be on top. You never needed Panthos in that meta.I ran Surfer Bolt for months, that team absolutely destroyed Panthos. Case in point. You are right, i should have said "in order to do well, it helps to have them." Just like right now, you don't "need" gambit. I dont use him and do just fine.
huktonfonix said: Spudgutter said: Bowgentle said: Spudgutter said:I think he is a super strong character who could use a tweak, but it is not really that different from the panthos meta, where in order to do well you had to have the same team as a counter. Someone is always going to be on top. You never needed Panthos in that meta.I ran Surfer Bolt for months, that team absolutely destroyed Panthos. Case in point. You are right, i should have said "in order to do well, it helps to have them." Just like right now, you don't "need" gambit. I dont use him and do just fine. Name teams you beat similarly leveled Gambits with that don’t include Thor or your own Gambit.
Spudgutter said: huktonfonix said: Spudgutter said: Bowgentle said: Spudgutter said:I think he is a super strong character who could use a tweak, but it is not really that different from the panthos meta, where in order to do well you had to have the same team as a counter. Someone is always going to be on top. You never needed Panthos in that meta.I ran Surfer Bolt for months, that team absolutely destroyed Panthos. Case in point. You are right, i should have said "in order to do well, it helps to have them." Just like right now, you don't "need" gambit. I dont use him and do just fine. Name teams you beat similarly leveled Gambits with that don’t include Thor or your own Gambit. Wait, what? We are talking about gambit here, but i will bite. Depending on who the other two are:Panthos. JJ/DD. DD/5trange. If i had him, SS/BB. JJ/BB. DD/thanos. Some matches will take longer, some would require health packs and some would really get you a retal on defense. That's obviously not the point you are trying to make. You want to know who wins? Me, 90+% of the time. It's the costs that will be different. Thats why i like thor so much. He has a great balance because he is strong without being overpowered on defense. You have to bring him in at a disadvantage to get the best utility out of him.
CharlieCroker said:But with regards to Thor, the thing is that if you have someone to tank for him (i.e. Gambit 15 levels higher tanks red, or other characters similarly higher) there is no real disadvantage, just the 5ap+ a turn gain. That's (but obviously) why he's so good and meshes so well with a variety of partners.
Daredevil217 said: CharlieCroker said:But with regards to Thor, the thing is that if you have someone to tank for him (i.e. Gambit 15 levels higher tanks red, or other characters similarly higher) there is no real disadvantage, just the 5ap+ a turn gain. That's (but obviously) why he's so good and meshes so well with a variety of partners. Half health Thor does this, except he collects 5 AP in three colors, gets the damage and cascades from destroying tiles... oh, and he doesn’t block other teammates from using active powers. I get it’s “conditional” in that you have to bring him in half health but that takes place before the match begins. Once in the match there are no conditions to his AP gen and he’s just as powerful as Gambit. So... nerf? I mean he seems to be a pretty big advantage against those who don’t have him. Way more so when Gambit is gutted.
Daredevil217 said: So to quote someone earlier in this thread in why Gambit should be nerfed. “Gambit originally generated 3 red and purple ap, each and every turn, without conditions other than his teammates cannot fire their sorry powers. What if he generated 6ap of each color each turn? That's fine? No nerfs cuz they're bad? “Half health Thor does this, except he collects 5 AP in three colors, gets the damage and cascades from destroying tiles... oh, and he doesn’t block other teammates from using active powers. I get it’s “conditional” in that you have to bring him in half health but that takes place before the match begins. Once in the match there are no conditions to his AP gen and he’s just as powerful as Gambit. So... nerf? I mean he seems to be a pretty big advantage against those who don’t have him. Way more so when Gambit is gutted.
Daredevil217 said: That’s pretty much Grocket in the 4* tier. Yeah you can beat him, but it’s goin to cost you some serious health packs. It’s annoying as a player in that tier seeing him everywhere and knowing that he’s going to consume what for me is a valuable resource. Also like Gambit’s AP gen, Grocket has to do zero to get the strikes... no conditions. And yet I would be upset if they nerfed him.
OJSP said: The main complaint about Gambit is not how powerful he is on offense, it’s when he’s on defense.
CharlieCroker said:I personally do consider Thor OP and would adjust the threshold for his green.
CharlieCroker said: Spudgutter said: huktonfonix said: Spudgutter said: Bowgentle said: Spudgutter said:I think he is a super strong character who could use a tweak, but it is not really that different from the panthos meta, where in order to do well you had to have the same team as a counter. Someone is always going to be on top. You never needed Panthos in that meta.I ran Surfer Bolt for months, that team absolutely destroyed Panthos. Case in point. You are right, i should have said "in order to do well, it helps to have them." Just like right now, you don't "need" gambit. I dont use him and do just fine. Name teams you beat similarly leveled Gambits with that don’t include Thor or your own Gambit. Wait, what? We are talking about gambit here, but i will bite. Depending on who the other two are:Panthos. JJ/DD. DD/5trange. If i had him, SS/BB. JJ/BB. DD/thanos. Some matches will take longer, some would require health packs and some would really get you a retal on defense. That's obviously not the point you are trying to make. You want to know who wins? Me, 90+% of the time. It's the costs that will be different. Thats why i like thor so much. He has a great balance because he is strong without being overpowered on defense. You have to bring him in at a disadvantage to get the best utility out of him. Did you really just suggest using a team with Black Bolt against Gambit? Interesting....But with regards to Thor, the thing is that if you have someone to tank for him (i.e. Gambit 15 levels higher tanks red, or other characters similarly higher) there is no real disadvantage, just the 5ap+ a turn gain. That's (but obviously) why he's so good and meshes so well with a variety of partners.
Daredevil217 said: I see. So the issue isn’t that he’s head and shoulders better than everyone else on offense (as Thor will be post nerf), and that those who have him will be better than everyone else. It’s that he’s annoying to fight on defense? And you can’t skip him because he’s 90% of the matches you see?Is it true that you can’t beat Gambit without your own Gambit? Some say it’s “impossible”. Others say they never use their own and do fine. Hard to sift through what is hyperbole.