Next Season PvP

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  • shartattack
    shartattack Posts: 370 Mover and Shaker

    While it's true those are hidden, in PVE you can actually not follow the ideal clear schedule and still get max progression, as long as you have the essentials. Just do all missions 6 times and maybe a bit of tapping to (the 20-50 points kind of) to reach the end.

    Biggest problem i have is that pvp have a fake progression that's still competitive. PVE got the progression that's not competitive and the placement that is. PVP just have two competitive tables. If it's really "intented" to be fully competitive, they should scrap the PVP progression and put it in the placement. Then we'd see how many people really are okay with full competition if only the top 50 or something like that have CP.
    sounds like a philosophical question.

    Do you think that anyone investing the time should be able to earn the top progression reward in pvp?

    I do not.  Different strokes for different folks, i get it.  I personally like how as your roster develops, you are able to earn more and more rewards; "progressing" as it were. I never got angry that i couldn't get the higher rewards. I built my roster and learned the game as it was set up.  "attack others and shield to protect yourself against attacks." I have felt that those desiring a more linear progression can play pve.  it is ok to have 2 different play styles.  it keeps the game fresh.
  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    Ruinate said:
    Guess who else is now part of that 1% and has DD Thanos.

    These aren't rules.  They are tips.  Just like Aes said.  The game does not need to provide all strategies and tips for you.  No game does this.  Seek out the cowdsourced information if you're interested enough or develop your own strategies.  That's part of gaming.  Shall I lay out all the possible outcomes before we play a game of tic tac toe?
    Yes, and not everyone is aware or able to take advantage of the tips, rules, suggestions or whatever you want to call them semantically. 

    And just a quick search of your comments and you gave some general pvp tips in another thread, so i am not even sure what we are discussing here?  I prefer points based, but can understand the woes of those that would prefer wins based.

    And lets be honest with ourselves.  If they had rolled out wins based, and you only needed around 25 wins to get the 4* and maybe 30 for the cp, we wouldnt even be having this conversation.
  • shartattack
    shartattack Posts: 370 Mover and Shaker
    Spudgutter said:

    Yes, and not everyone is aware or able to take advantage of the tips, rules, suggestions or whatever you want to call them semantically. 

    And just a quick search of your comments and you gave some general pvp tips in another thread, so i am not even sure what we are discussing here?  I prefer points based, but can understand the woes of those that would prefer wins based.

    And lets be honest with ourselves.  If they had rolled out wins based, and you only needed around 25 wins to get the 4* and maybe 30 for the cp, we wouldnt even be having this conversation.
    why can't everyone take advantage of the tips and strategy out there?
    either, you are happy with your score/placement or you are not.
    if you are happy, you continue doing what you are doing.
    if you are not happy, you want to fix the problem.  what do people do when they have a problem?  they go to the internet and google it.  this site is the first result for marvel puzzle quest tips.  problem solved?
  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    BoyWonder1914 said:

    Once again, the main issue people complained about with points-based, and thus raved about with wins-based, is not worrying about the loss of progression due to defensive losses. This causes shielding, which is where they get their money. Take away the need for shielding, and you also take away the revenue. They probably felt like they were giving away free resources to anyone who had the patience to just slog out the matches, which is why I'm assuming the CP disappeared from progression as well. They probably still get people shielding and fighting for t10 because that's where they placed the cheese at the end of the maze, but 10 people per bracket trying to get CP isn't as lucrative as hundreds or even thousands shielding to get progression rewards along the way.
    I agree with a lot of your post. I even mentioned during that season, that if it did revert back to points based, that people would attribute it to the uproar regardless. 

    That said, i would like more discussion about the shield side of it. Bow also brought up the money side of it, and while i agree with him as well, i cant wrap my head around it.  

    Maybe because i am such a vet, that my farms keep me above hp neutral?  Even with a couple shields an event, i still grow my stash by the hundreds every week.  So i have to imagine, anyone who can manage 900 as a 4* transitioner with a shield hop or two, can still do so as a FTP player.  

    Maybe they switched it back because of money.  Maybe because of the backlash.  Maybe too many people were getting 4* covers.  We have absolutely no way to know for sure, now that i think about it
  • BoyWonder1914
    BoyWonder1914 Posts: 884 Critical Contributor
    broll said:
    shartattack said:

    Do you think that anyone investing the time should be able to earn the top progression reward in pvp?

    Yes.  Unequivocally yes.  IMO Progression should be a merit of effort and Ranking should be a merit of skill.  Neither of those are 100% sure (especially the skill part) but IMO progression should be available to all.  The argument that it shouldn't made sense before SCLs, but now that there are SCLs grouping players into similar level categories yes everyone should be able to hit progression.
    But then you open a can of worms, as to what that top progression should be for those levels. People playing in CLs 1-5 shouldn't be worried about the state of their 4-star roster, but at the same time, 40 wins is quite a stretch for someone who's strictly using 2* and 3* characters. People playing in CL8 are probably past the point where ONE 4-star cover is making any kind of big deal for their roster capability. Since MMR is a million times worse for players at this level, 40 wins for said 4-star cover is thus NOT a good effort:reward ratio. CP matters much more to these players at this point, and you can only get it if you rank high enough. So some people still go absolutely crazy with points trying to achieve this ranking, getting 1200+ points, but that still somehow is not enough for full progression because they did it in 35 wins. Surely you can't say that issues with Wins-Based are any less egregious than the problems you complain about with point-based. Neither solution was perfect, but at least one got easier as your roster got better. 
  • BoyWonder1914
    BoyWonder1914 Posts: 884 Critical Contributor
    Spudgutter said:
    BoyWonder1914 said:

    Once again, the main issue people complained about with points-based, and thus raved about with wins-based, is not worrying about the loss of progression due to defensive losses. This causes shielding, which is where they get their money. Take away the need for shielding, and you also take away the revenue. They probably felt like they were giving away free resources to anyone who had the patience to just slog out the matches, which is why I'm assuming the CP disappeared from progression as well. They probably still get people shielding and fighting for t10 because that's where they placed the cheese at the end of the maze, but 10 people per bracket trying to get CP isn't as lucrative as hundreds or even thousands shielding to get progression rewards along the way.
    I agree with a lot of your post. I even mentioned during that season, that if it did revert back to points based, that people would attribute it to the uproar regardless. 

    That said, i would like more discussion about the shield side of it. Bow also brought up the money side of it, and while i agree with him as well, i cant wrap my head around it.  

    Maybe because i am such a vet, that my farms keep me above hp neutral?  Even with a couple shields an event, i still grow my stash by the hundreds every week.  So i have to imagine, anyone who can manage 900 as a 4* transitioner with a shield hop or two, can still do so as a FTP player.  

    Maybe they switched it back because of money.  Maybe because of the backlash.  Maybe too many people were getting 4* covers.  We have absolutely no way to know for sure, now that i think about it
    Fair point, I legitimately don't remember the last time I needed to actually purchase HP. Between placement rewards, alliance rewards, and champ levels at 2-4 star tiers, the amount I spend for 1-3 shields per event is trivial. But we also allegedly make up a rather small percentage of the player base.  B)
  • Arix90
    Arix90 Posts: 244 Tile Toppler
    edited December 2017
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    Terrific news! Hopefully PVP stays exactly as it is. It's a real hoot!
    Hopefully no updates yet because so much is updated this season including a return to wins and rebalances And they were still testing changes
  • shartattack
    shartattack Posts: 370 Mover and Shaker

    It can be removed with an overhaul.  I've long been a proponent of a points based system where losses don't take away any progression points.  This IMO would be the perfect best of both worlds scenario.  You get the variable points based on targets + the no backsliding progression of win based.
    no points loss= no shields needed.  no shields needed=no revenue.  no revenue= no game.
  • JHawkInc
    JHawkInc Posts: 2,609 Chairperson of the Boards
    Arix90 said:
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    Terrific news! Hopefully PVP stays exactly as it is. It's a real hoot!
    Hopefully no updates yet because so much is updated this season including a return to wins and rebalances And they were still testing changes
    The use of passive language to imply that a user's desired version is the "one true way" is obnoxious.

    Hopefully, they find a method that is best for everyone instead of picking one or the other because some loud forum people like that one best.

    I swear, a significant number of people on these forums became insufferable during these recent PVP tests. Like, some people have been coming to these forums for years and suddenly one test has robbed them of the ability to attempt decent conversation.
  • Spudgutter
    Spudgutter Posts: 743 Critical Contributor
    shartattack said:

    It can be removed with an overhaul.  I've long been a proponent of a points based system where losses don't take away any progression points.  This IMO would be the perfect best of both worlds scenario.  You get the variable points based on targets + the no backsliding progression of win based.
    no points loss= no shields needed.  no shields needed=no revenue.  no revenue= no game.
    How much money are you spending in shields?  I brought it up earlier, i understand the theory, but have yet to be convinced that the numbers work.  I get 2 or 3 shields per event, but outside of VIP, dont spend anything extra.

    For reference, i spent all my hp reserves during the anniversary, bought around 5 roster slots since then, and already have 9000 hp stored back up.

    I would counter that anyone that has the knowledge and ability to shield and hop for 900/1200, has a decent farm and is probably at least hp neutral.  I'm open to have my opinion changed, but everyone just keeps saying it without backing it up.
  • Sm0keyJ0e
    Sm0keyJ0e Posts: 730 Critical Contributor
    JHawkInc said:
    Arix90 said:
    Sm0keyJ0e said:
    Terrific news! Hopefully PVP stays exactly as it is. It's a real hoot!
    Hopefully no updates yet because so much is updated this season including a return to wins and rebalances And they were still testing changes
    The use of passive language to imply that a user's desired version is the "one true way" is obnoxious.

    Hopefully, they find a method that is best for everyone instead of picking one or the other because some loud forum people like that one best.

    I swear, a significant number of people on these forums became insufferable during these recent PVP tests. Like, some people have been coming to these forums for years and suddenly one test has robbed them of the ability to attempt decent conversation.

    This seems to be directed at me. What did I say that was so bad (or "loud") about the wins-based version? I offered my opinions on it no different than anyone else. I highly doubt that the devs said "Oh no! SmokeyJoe doesn't like this version! Let's pull it back!"

    I prefer the points-based version of PVP. Is there a better middle ground somewhere? Probably, but clearly the wins-based version as it was is not what the devs wanted, for whatever reasons that aren't available to you nor I.
  • The rockett
    The rockett Posts: 2,016 Chairperson of the Boards
    edited December 2017
    Spudgutter said:
    shartattack said:

    It can be removed with an overhaul.  I've long been a proponent of a points based system where losses don't take away any progression points.  This IMO would be the perfect best of both worlds scenario.  You get the variable points based on targets + the no backsliding progression of win based.
    no points loss= no shields needed.  no shields needed=no revenue.  no revenue= no game.
    How much money are you spending in shields?  I brought it up earlier, i understand the theory, but have yet to be convinced that the numbers work.  I get 2 or 3 shields per event, but outside of VIP, dont spend anything extra.

    For reference, i spent all my hp reserves during the anniversary, bought around 5 roster slots since then, and already have 9000 hp stored back up.

    I would counter that anyone that has the knowledge and ability to shield and hop for 900/1200, has a decent farm and is probably at least hp neutral.  I'm open to have my opinion changed, but everyone just keeps saying it without backing it up.
    It depends on the type of PVP you are playing. If you are on the top end of playing, you can use between 4-12 shields an event. Yes, 12 shields.  This doesn't include buying health packs too. Have i used over 3000 HP in 1 event?  Yes, very easily depending on how I am playing. I am just one player as well, imagine a whole slice doing this. Have i bought HP due to needing it for health packs and shield?  Yes. Slots (have 213), shield and health packs are what I buy the most and currently have 113650 HP. Now I am a top end PVE player too so I get some back we top 1/5 placements. Yes I do buy a vault now and again but it all depends on the vault. I hope that gives a little context of how much HP is used during a PVP. 
  • Milk Jugz
    Milk Jugz Posts: 1,122 Chairperson of the Boards
    mexus said:
    Milk Jugz said:
    mexus said:
    shartattack said:
    Ruinate said:
    Spudgutter said:
    aesthetocyst said:
    tiomono said: ...The amount of nonsensical "rules" in this game is astounding....
    List a few of these "nonsensical 'rules'" please? Shouldn't be hard to do seeing as their is an astounding amount lying around.
    Cmon, you have been around long enough not to put out a troll question.

    In case you are being sincere for others, I'll throw a couple out:

    Dont climb in the last three hours.

    Dont try to hit more than two during a hop

    Never queue someone for less than 38 points

    Find your float point

    Get in a line chat group, specifically a battle chat, so that you can circumvent the rules designed by the devs to try to make play fair, all the while professing that we are playing the game as it is designed and as such it shouldn't be changed.

    Should i go on?
    Who made those rules?  I violate all of them.  I could not follow a single rule with DD Thanos and not give up before 900 too.  
    those rules don't really apply to the 1%, ruinate
    The same 1% preventing everyone else from making actually top 50.

    Considering the top 50 in each Versus bracket is 10% of the 500 person bracket, I'd love to see your math that proves 1% of the players are taking 10% of the spots......
    I wasn't really even trying to come up with better numbers, I tried making a point.
    Jokes about bad maths doesn't really have any impact on me in this.
    I'm sorry, I must be confused.... What point were you trying to make? That you're bad at math or that you don't understand how the brackets work or that you're somehow under the impression that the top spots should not be going to the top rosters?

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