westnyy2 said: If your transitioning 4 star roster can't hang with a 5 star roster then drop a clearance level.
All but one of the top 5 in my bracket were champed 5* rosters and I was in SCL6 this event. 4 of the top 10 were 5* champs and the other 6 were developed 4* champs. There's a limit to how far down the SCL ladder a transitioning 4* roster can realistically drop before it becomes pointless.
sh81 said: Fightmastermpq said: I think everyone would agree that the devs make mistakes, but what everyone seems to be struggling with is that the PvE/SCL/Clearnace Rank structure was a mistake that they made in your favor. If the scaling in the test was too hard for you, you were getting rewards that you were never intended to get. Don't think of these rewards as being taken away from you, think of them as being given to you underservingly for the past......year? 2 years? a long time. broll said:The problem here is once somethings been given, it's hard to take it back. That's why I was so mad when then made the original SCLs open to such low ranks. I knew this battle would come eventually if they made the difficulty based on SCL. If those rewards unreasonably accelerated a players progress, Id agree.Fact is, they dont.Competing for top 10 in SCL 8, what do you think my haul is?90% of the time its a few 3* covers and some HP. Hardly ground breaking stuff.Were I pulling in 4 and 5* hand over fist, and were it the case that at lower SCL the rewards were more "appropriate" I would be in full agreement with you.Thing is, so far as I see, your argument holds more weight in theory than practice.The rewards are set up as if 4* are the pinnacle of the game, where only the absolute best should get them. Its been a long time since that was the game, and yet the rewards havent moved with the times.I maintain, and have for a long time, moving into 4* is infinitely harder than 3*. Of course I dont expect it to be easy, but the disparity is far to much.
Fightmastermpq said: I think everyone would agree that the devs make mistakes, but what everyone seems to be struggling with is that the PvE/SCL/Clearnace Rank structure was a mistake that they made in your favor. If the scaling in the test was too hard for you, you were getting rewards that you were never intended to get. Don't think of these rewards as being taken away from you, think of them as being given to you underservingly for the past......year? 2 years? a long time.
broll said:The problem here is once somethings been given, it's hard to take it back. That's why I was so mad when then made the original SCLs open to such low ranks. I knew this battle would come eventually if they made the difficulty based on SCL.
ZootSax said: westnyy2 said: If your transitioning 4 star roster can't hang with a 5 star roster then drop a clearance level. All but one of the top 5 in my bracket were champed 5* rosters and I was in SCL6 this event. 4 of the top 10 were 5* champs and the other 6 were developed 4* champs. There's a limit to how far down the SCL ladder a transitioning 4* roster can realistically drop before it becomes pointless.
revskip said: ZootSax said: westnyy2 said: If your transitioning 4 star roster can't hang with a 5 star roster then drop a clearance level. All but one of the top 5 in my bracket were champed 5* rosters and I was in SCL6 this event. 4 of the top 10 were 5* champs and the other 6 were developed 4* champs. There's a limit to how far down the SCL ladder a transitioning 4* roster can realistically drop before it becomes pointless. Which is exactly why they should be locking out rarities at the various SCLs. That would still benefit vets as their characters at the lower rarities will still be higher level but they won't be just taking 5* rosters to SCL 6 to dry up the rewards for rosters that are competing for them If 5* characters were locked out of every SCL below 8 (and 9 and 10 when they are released) many of those players would stick to 8. And the ones that didn't could still use their higher leveled 4* (or 3* if they drop far enough) characters to have an edge. The edge in match damage that 5*s provide is just too much to overcome with better timing / grinding.
sh81 said: broll said: sh81 said: Fightmastermpq said: I think everyone would agree that the devs make mistakes, but what everyone seems to be struggling with is that the PvE/SCL/Clearnace Rank structure was a mistake that they made in your favor. If the scaling in the test was too hard for you, you were getting rewards that you were never intended to get. Don't think of these rewards as being taken away from you, think of them as being given to you underservingly for the past......year? 2 years? a long time. broll said:The problem here is once somethings been given, it's hard to take it back. That's why I was so mad when then made the original SCLs open to such low ranks. I knew this battle would come eventually if they made the difficulty based on SCL. If those rewards unreasonably accelerated a players progress, Id agree.Fact is, they dont.Competing for top 10 in SCL 8, what do you think my haul is?90% of the time its a few 3* covers and some HP. Hardly ground breaking stuff. So you're saying your arguing about losing trivial rewards? How does that help your argument? If anything that tells me, you're right you shouldn't be so upset about losing them then. Im arguing that the best I get isnt really good enough, and Id be set to lose out on even that.You seem to be arguing that I should be grateful for the amazing SCL8 rewards is if they are somehow offering me a huge benefit.
broll said: sh81 said: Fightmastermpq said: I think everyone would agree that the devs make mistakes, but what everyone seems to be struggling with is that the PvE/SCL/Clearnace Rank structure was a mistake that they made in your favor. If the scaling in the test was too hard for you, you were getting rewards that you were never intended to get. Don't think of these rewards as being taken away from you, think of them as being given to you underservingly for the past......year? 2 years? a long time. broll said:The problem here is once somethings been given, it's hard to take it back. That's why I was so mad when then made the original SCLs open to such low ranks. I knew this battle would come eventually if they made the difficulty based on SCL. If those rewards unreasonably accelerated a players progress, Id agree.Fact is, they dont.Competing for top 10 in SCL 8, what do you think my haul is?90% of the time its a few 3* covers and some HP. Hardly ground breaking stuff. So you're saying your arguing about losing trivial rewards? How does that help your argument? If anything that tells me, you're right you shouldn't be so upset about losing them then.
sh81 said: Fightmastermpq said: I think everyone would agree that the devs make mistakes, but what everyone seems to be struggling with is that the PvE/SCL/Clearnace Rank structure was a mistake that they made in your favor. If the scaling in the test was too hard for you, you were getting rewards that you were never intended to get. Don't think of these rewards as being taken away from you, think of them as being given to you underservingly for the past......year? 2 years? a long time. broll said:The problem here is once somethings been given, it's hard to take it back. That's why I was so mad when then made the original SCLs open to such low ranks. I knew this battle would come eventually if they made the difficulty based on SCL. If those rewards unreasonably accelerated a players progress, Id agree.Fact is, they dont.Competing for top 10 in SCL 8, what do you think my haul is?90% of the time its a few 3* covers and some HP. Hardly ground breaking stuff.
animaniactoo said: revskip said: ZootSax said: westnyy2 said: If your transitioning 4 star roster can't hang with a 5 star roster then drop a clearance level. All but one of the top 5 in my bracket were champed 5* rosters and I was in SCL6 this event. 4 of the top 10 were 5* champs and the other 6 were developed 4* champs. There's a limit to how far down the SCL ladder a transitioning 4* roster can realistically drop before it becomes pointless. Which is exactly why they should be locking out rarities at the various SCLs. That would still benefit vets as their characters at the lower rarities will still be higher level but they won't be just taking 5* rosters to SCL 6 to dry up the rewards for rosters that are competing for them If 5* characters were locked out of every SCL below 8 (and 9 and 10 when they are released) many of those players would stick to 8. And the ones that didn't could still use their higher leveled 4* (or 3* if they drop far enough) characters to have an edge. The edge in match damage that 5*s provide is just too much to overcome with better timing / grinding. I agree with this to some extent, but not to another - because a 5* roster might really want/need the rewards/timing of a lower SCL and shouldn't necessarily be locked out of them.However, I think there do need to be limits - not being able to drop more than 1 during a release event, a hard limit on the number of times it can be done a month/year, etc.Also because some 5 stars don't really add much until you've got them much further developed. I have 5 stars on my roster - I've got all but a couple of them rostered. I pretty much can't use any of them. Not well-covered enough, etc. So they're there, but the few times I've tried to use them at all - I've gotten hurt more for using them than they've helped.
sh81 said: broll said: sh81 said: broll said: sh81 said: Fightmastermpq said: I think everyone would agree that the devs make mistakes, but what everyone seems to be struggling with is that the PvE/SCL/Clearnace Rank structure was a mistake that they made in your favor. If the scaling in the test was too hard for you, you were getting rewards that you were never intended to get. Don't think of these rewards as being taken away from you, think of them as being given to you underservingly for the past......year? 2 years? a long time. broll said:The problem here is once somethings been given, it's hard to take it back. That's why I was so mad when then made the original SCLs open to such low ranks. I knew this battle would come eventually if they made the difficulty based on SCL. If those rewards unreasonably accelerated a players progress, Id agree.Fact is, they dont.Competing for top 10 in SCL 8, what do you think my haul is?90% of the time its a few 3* covers and some HP. Hardly ground breaking stuff. So you're saying your arguing about losing trivial rewards? How does that help your argument? If anything that tells me, you're right you shouldn't be so upset about losing them then. Im arguing that the best I get isnt really good enough, and Id be set to lose out on even that.You seem to be arguing that I should be grateful for the amazing SCL8 rewards is if they are somehow offering me a huge benefit. My argument had nothing to do with the quality of the rewards, but the absurdity that a 3* > 4* transition places 10th in every event in the highest difficulty bracket. You say you like competition, that's not competition, that's charity. As Fight said the game has been fixed in your favor for a long time and they are trying to fix that. You're punching way above your weight limit right now and you'll have to accept backing to the right level and winning or fighting with the big boys and no fairing as well, or that the game isn't for you. Like I said to you, in theory I really dont disagree.However, in practice I find it impossible to reconcile that theory, the progress/rewards Ive made, and the idea its somehow charitable to me. It certainly doesnt seem rigged in my favour, thats hilarious. Personally I find that 3-4* transition to be almost deliberately hard so as to stall play (though to be fair with added CP rewards it is improving).Lets be clear - I said I compete for top 10 - I actually rarely place there.Outside of that, my point is not even on the "fairness" of it. I compete there because its the only place worth competing, if I dont compete there what possible progress will I make?Again - for clarity - were the rewards appropriate at each level I would have no issue dropping down to play lower. If 8 is for the top dogs and Im "supposed" to be in 6 thats absolutely fine - so long as playing at 6 enables me to develop and eventually push into 7.....that simply is not the case right now.And, again, for clarity, this isnt a "woe is me" sob story - this applies at all levels. I think 5* players will also not be getting what they should rightfully earn. And at no point is this with an eye to the game being easy, or fast. Rather a game that offers clear and genuine progress if you put the effort in.
broll said: sh81 said: broll said: sh81 said: Fightmastermpq said: I think everyone would agree that the devs make mistakes, but what everyone seems to be struggling with is that the PvE/SCL/Clearnace Rank structure was a mistake that they made in your favor. If the scaling in the test was too hard for you, you were getting rewards that you were never intended to get. Don't think of these rewards as being taken away from you, think of them as being given to you underservingly for the past......year? 2 years? a long time. broll said:The problem here is once somethings been given, it's hard to take it back. That's why I was so mad when then made the original SCLs open to such low ranks. I knew this battle would come eventually if they made the difficulty based on SCL. If those rewards unreasonably accelerated a players progress, Id agree.Fact is, they dont.Competing for top 10 in SCL 8, what do you think my haul is?90% of the time its a few 3* covers and some HP. Hardly ground breaking stuff. So you're saying your arguing about losing trivial rewards? How does that help your argument? If anything that tells me, you're right you shouldn't be so upset about losing them then. Im arguing that the best I get isnt really good enough, and Id be set to lose out on even that.You seem to be arguing that I should be grateful for the amazing SCL8 rewards is if they are somehow offering me a huge benefit. My argument had nothing to do with the quality of the rewards, but the absurdity that a 3* > 4* transition places 10th in every event in the highest difficulty bracket. You say you like competition, that's not competition, that's charity. As Fight said the game has been fixed in your favor for a long time and they are trying to fix that. You're punching way above your weight limit right now and you'll have to accept backing to the right level and winning or fighting with the big boys and no fairing as well, or that the game isn't for you.
revskip said: animaniactoo said: revskip said: ZootSax said: westnyy2 said: If your transitioning 4 star roster can't hang with a 5 star roster then drop a clearance level. All but one of the top 5 in my bracket were champed 5* rosters and I was in SCL6 this event. 4 of the top 10 were 5* champs and the other 6 were developed 4* champs. There's a limit to how far down the SCL ladder a transitioning 4* roster can realistically drop before it becomes pointless. Which is exactly why they should be locking out rarities at the various SCLs. That would still benefit vets as their characters at the lower rarities will still be higher level but they won't be just taking 5* rosters to SCL 6 to dry up the rewards for rosters that are competing for them If 5* characters were locked out of every SCL below 8 (and 9 and 10 when they are released) many of those players would stick to 8. And the ones that didn't could still use their higher leveled 4* (or 3* if they drop far enough) characters to have an edge. The edge in match damage that 5*s provide is just too much to overcome with better timing / grinding. I agree with this to some extent, but not to another - because a 5* roster might really want/need the rewards/timing of a lower SCL and shouldn't necessarily be locked out of them.However, I think there do need to be limits - not being able to drop more than 1 during a release event, a hard limit on the number of times it can be done a month/year, etc.Also because some 5 stars don't really add much until you've got them much further developed. I have 5 stars on my roster - I've got all but a couple of them rostered. I pretty much can't use any of them. Not well-covered enough, etc. So they're there, but the few times I've tried to use them at all - I've gotten hurt more for using them than they've helped. I don't mean locking out players who have 5*s. I just mean locking the actual 5* characters out. A person with twelve 5* champs could absolutely still drop down to whatever SCL they want. They just wouldn't have the 5*s available to them in those lower SCLs. Same thing with 4*s. In fact it would actually be great for people who get bored with using the same few characters over and over. If you wanted to drop down to SCL 6 for example you would only be using 3*s (with the exception of the 4* essential). Vets would retain their advantage because they would most likely still have higher level 3*s but the gulf would be much smaller.
Lukoil said: DrDevilDinosaur said: Did I play a different event? This was horrible - scaling was worse than normal.Just switch it back, it wasn't perfect but every time Demi tries to tweak something they just manage to break it instead. Just please stop fiddling. Yes you played different event. You played in SCL that is not appropirate for your roster. SCL8 - 4*->5* transition (easy for 5* rosters, ok for developed 4* rosters, hard for not developed 4* rosters)SCL7 - 4* (easy for developed 4* roster, ok for not developed roster, hard for 3* only)SCL6 - 3*->4* (easy for early 4* roster, ok for 3*)SCL5 - 3* (easy for 3*)SCL4-SCL1 - 1*-3* rangeThe only problem right now - rewards are not appropirate for difficulty. SCL-8 should give more CPs, SCL-7 should give more 4* covers as progression rewards. Right now SCL8 rewards are not good enough for such harsh increased diffculty
DrDevilDinosaur said: Did I play a different event? This was horrible - scaling was worse than normal.Just switch it back, it wasn't perfect but every time Demi tries to tweak something they just manage to break it instead. Just please stop fiddling.
sh81 said: animaniactoo said: I think the argument is that the rewards are more or less appropriate for each level if you have not developed ahead of your roster (which is what fight and broll are saying has happened) in terms of the overall pacing of where the game should be to prevent players from reaching "the end" (aka have outpaced new development to the point where they're going to be bored and giving up the game out of boredom next year).So if you're ahead of the curve of where D3 thinks you should be as a player with the amount of time you've put into the game, it's because they made it possible for you to develop ahead of that curve, and they're cutting off that pipeline now.I see where you are going, but I disagree.I just dont think the rewards are appropriate at all. I really think they were absolutely spot on, but 2 years ago.The meta has moved significantly, the mechanics have moved significantly, the rewards have not.So I dont believe they are appropriate/on point/about right at all.If the were I honestly I would have an issue at all.
animaniactoo said: I think the argument is that the rewards are more or less appropriate for each level if you have not developed ahead of your roster (which is what fight and broll are saying has happened) in terms of the overall pacing of where the game should be to prevent players from reaching "the end" (aka have outpaced new development to the point where they're going to be bored and giving up the game out of boredom next year).So if you're ahead of the curve of where D3 thinks you should be as a player with the amount of time you've put into the game, it's because they made it possible for you to develop ahead of that curve, and they're cutting off that pipeline now.
Nepenthe said: If you didn't like playing at levels higher than what it was before, you can do CL7 and it'd be easier than it was under the old system. (Unfortunately with the big jump in difficulty from 7 to 8 there doesn't seem to be one right at my old scaling either, I think we're kind of in the middle on this new system.) I can see myself doing that if the weekly boosted heroes aren't very good, or for Venom Bomb, or if I just want to spend less time in mpq for a few days.
Yeah, I guess I will have to play at CL7.
Nepenthe said: DarthDeVo said: westnyy2 said: I don't understand what is broken. You are no longer punished for having a strong roster. If your transitioning 4 star roster can't hang with a 5 star roster then drop a clearance level. As a 5 star player, I'm still being outplayed by bigger 5 star rosters and I'm okay with that. On a side note, how easy was that Hood/Mags node in the last sub? Normally the 110k plus hit points they have frustrate me to no end. In this trial it was so much easier.This test may not be the perfect solution, but certainly has been the most fair thus far. Lastly, while I have a 5 star roster, I only used 1 this last sub. Boosted 4's are no joke. It's taught me to learn the characters better. While, I agree that if you've developed a strong roster you shouldn't be punished for it, I highlighted the sentence above for a reason. I'm a (basically) Rank 86 player with 11 4* champs, and one fully covered and another decently covered 5* character (both completely unleveled). Much of my 4*progress has come from getting T10 or T5 in SCL 7 and 8; I even managed to get T1 in SCL 7 the last time Deadpool vs. MPQ ran. I know this is a release event, which is normally much more competitive. I know I'm in slice 4 of SCL 7, and utterly failed with my bracket snipe for this event, so I'm playing against some ultra competitive players. Right now, I'm at 28th overall. In a non-release event, that would only net me some 3* covers. So if this scaling is implemented with no other changes, where should I go? SCL 6 has no 4* covers in progression, and precisely one 4* cover given to the top finisher. Also, isn't the minimum rank to enter that SCL in the upper teens/low 20s? Does that really seem appropriate for a Rank 86 player?If they implement this style of scaling (don't get me wrong, I think they should) they HAVE to open SCL 9 and 10 with appropriate rewards to thin out 7 and 8. @DarthDeVo You failed your bracket snipe in a release event and are complaining that you're only ranked #28? Sounds like if you'd started a little later to snipe a new bracket you'd probably be top 10. As to your question about dropping down to CL6: No, you should stay CL7, get the 4* cover and CP out of progression and not worry much if you're not hitting top 10 as often as before.I did my 3-4* transition mostly before CL was even a thing, almost never getting a 4* from placement. It was all about the progression rewards: the CP (and before that the LT) that was top progression. Nobody should have to be counting on top 10 for transition, because that's only 1% of people in the event. If you can hit it that's some gravy, but it's not necessary to get top 10 to get into the 4* tier.I totally agree that CL9 needs to come soon too. And the CL8 rewards should be buffed to make it more worth staying CL8 instead of dropping down. But don't be surprised if neither of those changes happen until after this scaling change is made permanent. They seem to like doing just one change at a time.
DarthDeVo said: westnyy2 said: I don't understand what is broken. You are no longer punished for having a strong roster. If your transitioning 4 star roster can't hang with a 5 star roster then drop a clearance level. As a 5 star player, I'm still being outplayed by bigger 5 star rosters and I'm okay with that. On a side note, how easy was that Hood/Mags node in the last sub? Normally the 110k plus hit points they have frustrate me to no end. In this trial it was so much easier.This test may not be the perfect solution, but certainly has been the most fair thus far. Lastly, while I have a 5 star roster, I only used 1 this last sub. Boosted 4's are no joke. It's taught me to learn the characters better. While, I agree that if you've developed a strong roster you shouldn't be punished for it, I highlighted the sentence above for a reason. I'm a (basically) Rank 86 player with 11 4* champs, and one fully covered and another decently covered 5* character (both completely unleveled). Much of my 4*progress has come from getting T10 or T5 in SCL 7 and 8; I even managed to get T1 in SCL 7 the last time Deadpool vs. MPQ ran. I know this is a release event, which is normally much more competitive. I know I'm in slice 4 of SCL 7, and utterly failed with my bracket snipe for this event, so I'm playing against some ultra competitive players. Right now, I'm at 28th overall. In a non-release event, that would only net me some 3* covers. So if this scaling is implemented with no other changes, where should I go? SCL 6 has no 4* covers in progression, and precisely one 4* cover given to the top finisher. Also, isn't the minimum rank to enter that SCL in the upper teens/low 20s? Does that really seem appropriate for a Rank 86 player?If they implement this style of scaling (don't get me wrong, I think they should) they HAVE to open SCL 9 and 10 with appropriate rewards to thin out 7 and 8.
westnyy2 said: I don't understand what is broken. You are no longer punished for having a strong roster. If your transitioning 4 star roster can't hang with a 5 star roster then drop a clearance level. As a 5 star player, I'm still being outplayed by bigger 5 star rosters and I'm okay with that. On a side note, how easy was that Hood/Mags node in the last sub? Normally the 110k plus hit points they have frustrate me to no end. In this trial it was so much easier.This test may not be the perfect solution, but certainly has been the most fair thus far. Lastly, while I have a 5 star roster, I only used 1 this last sub. Boosted 4's are no joke. It's taught me to learn the characters better.
Beer40 said: revskip said: I don't mean locking out players who have 5*s. I just mean locking the actual 5* characters out. A person with twelve 5* champs could absolutely still drop down to whatever SCL they want. They just wouldn't have the 5*s available to them in those lower SCLs. Same thing with 4*s. In fact it would actually be great for people who get bored with using the same few characters over and over. If you wanted to drop down to SCL 6 for example you would only be using 3*s (with the exception of the 4* essential). Vets would retain their advantage because they would most likely still have higher level 3*s but the gulf would be much smaller. The top rosters probably are the tops at every level. So they're probably winning at SCL7 and 6, just like they are in the test, but it will "look" different. So by locking out certain * tiers we are just being limited in our choices to build a 3 person team among the * tiers.Its just my opinion, but taking away who we can choose to play with is a terrible idea. That's exactly what a lot of 5* players are complaining about right now. And a big complaint of Vaulting. And a big complaint of the Heroic PVEs. Short answer: Most everyone complains about this in one way or another.
revskip said: I don't mean locking out players who have 5*s. I just mean locking the actual 5* characters out. A person with twelve 5* champs could absolutely still drop down to whatever SCL they want. They just wouldn't have the 5*s available to them in those lower SCLs. Same thing with 4*s. In fact it would actually be great for people who get bored with using the same few characters over and over. If you wanted to drop down to SCL 6 for example you would only be using 3*s (with the exception of the 4* essential). Vets would retain their advantage because they would most likely still have higher level 3*s but the gulf would be much smaller.