Keep this Scaling!

Starfury

Fightmastermpq said:

sh81 said:

Bowgentle said:

sh81 said:

3* champ rewards equate to ISO 90% of the time.  2 4* covers (if you eventually get your 3s high enough) and if you are extremely lucky a 4* pull from a heroic token.  I dont believe they make my roster stronger.

Yes - pedant alert - the hp helps buy slots, the iso helps level players - no need to go there.  However, it is neither tangible nor meaningful progress in 4* development.  CP and LT and Covers are.

So, Ill maintain, the rewards are insufficient to develop in a meaningful way.


With these changes why does it have to be either/or?  Why not both?

Why is it in fixing a problem for 5* players you cannot look at making the experience better for all?

And why are people so committed to the current reward structure, when it is clearly geared towards a time when 4*s were then what 5*s are now?

This is probably the strangest conversation Ive ever had on here.

Promote a catch all solution, that is genuinely not even that radfical, and get nothing but resistance!

There's 5 LTS in every 3* plus a ton of CP.
Yes, champ levels on your 3s WILL develop your roster faster than you think.
Why do you think are 5* players building dupes of their 3s?
It's not the HP for sure.

ISO, predominantly.  That and the fact it sucks to throw away resources in a game so dependent on them.

The majority of the big rewards are back loaded.  Im on day 864, I collect 3s like nothing else.  Have them all rostered, all champed bar starlord and not one max covered. 242 being my highest, and only now am I getting to the good stuff in there.

Of course its not true that there is no use, but in the scheme of things its minor.  Its really not somethng that makes a tangible difference day to day.  Rather a tiny incremental difference over time.

I very strongly disagree with this.  As those 3* champ levels start rolling in the chain reaction of rewards to follow definitely does make a big difference.  I'm telling you, go a week or two or better yet a full season without opening ANYTHING, then pull everything at once and track everything that comes in.  You'll be shocked.  Be sure you take note of how many times you have to keep going back to that Legendary and Heroic token screen to open subsequent rewards.

And while he's at it, he should track how many times he tapped his finger on the screen because the UI for opening tokens SUCKS!

MarcSpector68

Much prefer the old scaling.  Couldnt play in scl8.  Having enemies start at or above you highestbcharacters bites.

SpringSoldier

sh81 said:

SpringSoldier said:

I disagree that cp and 4* covers are the only things important for a 3* to 4* transition. I want and need hp even more than cp, so I can get all 2*, 3* and 4* (at least one cover each), so I'm not locked out of essential nodes and so that I can have a decent farm (and because I love hoarding!). SCL7 offers less hp than SCL8. I need hp just as much as a vet with maxed out champs that wants to rooster duplicates. If lower levels offered more hp, I'd go for them rather than the cp.

(I know I can buy hp, but I really can't afford anything more than VIP or Agency Expenses once a month, so it's out of the question)

Could be a timing thing, but thats not my experience at all.  What day are you on?  Im well into the 800's.

Ive been able to roster almost all characters as they have come along, very rarely suffered HP shortage.  I generally pick  up enough to roster someone every two weeks.

Ive had major ISO shortage, especially in the 3* game. I was fortunate in that they introduced Shield Ranks and dropped 400k in my lap which was massive.  Champed and levelled everyone in a single swoop, and was able to put together 3 million there after.

The issue Ive had, persistently, is a lack of covers/access to covers.

The CP increase in rewards has done a lot to help, until that came in I was just scratching around and getting nowhere.

You're definitely at a different stage, so I understand where you're coming from with the cp and the 4* covers.

I'm day 283 and I think I'm doing great as far as getting covers is concerned. I wish I had more access to vaulted characters instead of so many covers of the new 4*, so my rooster would evolve more evenly.  I couldn't ask for quicker progress, even though I'm still getting my behind kicked in PVP badly by those with champed 4*.

Having a decent 2* and 3* farm is by far one of the most rewarding things in the game, because I can make the most of all covers. It's why I want any extra HP so badly. Don't get me wrong- getting cp is great, but I do get frustrated when I have to sell 4* covers, like Mordo or Sandman, because I don't have where to put them.

In the past I sold Agent Venom and Blade- stupid, I know, I would've had them champed by now, but I didn't have any rooster spots and I didn't realize just how many new covers I'll be getting soon. There are definite drawbacks to flooding beginners with tones of covers- no rooster spots, you have no idea who's a better character, you don't realize you need to hoard stuff, you get killed instantly in PVP etc. Having a sense of progress is important though, at any stage.

Fightmastermpq

sh81 said:

MissChinch said:

I think this discussion is starting to completely loose sight of the progression rewards, and that in order for a given SCL to be valuable you don't need to finish with high placement...

A 3->4 transitioner can hit progression on SCL7 easily and can make progression on SCL8 if they have the right combination of 4*s.  Even if SCL7 becomes flooded with 100s of 5* champion rosters hellbent on squeezing all other rosters out of placement rewards, the transitioner easily makes enough resources to strengthen their roster significantly faster than new characters are coming out.  The same is true for a roster with 25+ 4* champions. 

Placement rewards are not necessary for substantial progress, and I'd take t500 in SCL8 with hitting progression over fighting for t1 in SL6 anyday.

Personally this change in scaling will amount to me getting slightly less resources, but still being far ahead of the release schedule, while at the same time saving hours a day by dropping to SCL7 and rushing through clears with lower level opponents.  I'm rank 86 with 12 4* champions, all 5*s sitting unleveled.

Progression rewards are greatly improved (and appreciated).  And do serve the masses much better than placement.  And have done more to advance my roster than anything.

I dont disagree with your point at all.


The thing is, for me, the game is a competition, because it has placement.  

I have worked really hard, and put in huge amounts of time and effort to place well consistently.  I am always in the top 1-2% on SCL8 as it stands.

That being the case, I think there should be rewards to reflect that and make it worth while.

And for context:
Pre test, SCL 8, my last three finishes were 11, 18, 10.

The first test, SCL 8, scraped into the top 50

Second test SCL 7, just outside the top 100 (I was unable to play optimally, but looking at available points the best I could have done is just inside top 50)

Strange Sights, SCL 7, #1 first sub, currently ranked 7 over all (#14 in sub 2 with 12 hours left).

So implementing this change takes me from being clearly too good for SCL7, very competitive in SCL8, to a middle of the road SCL7 player.

Thats really hard to take, especially when there are ways to mitigate that completely.

What Ive suggested for one, other suggestions of opening SCL9 and 10 as another.

Why is this hard to take?  Look at the rosters of the guys that are ahead of you, you have no business beating them in the first place!

You want to talk about hard to take.....how about when someone finally champs their first two or three 5*s and decides they want to try their hand at competitive PvE, they bust their **** and do everything right only to check the leaderboard and find their T10 filled with softcapped 4* rosters.  How is that fair??? That was our old system - hell even in the test softcappers are still placing well with some good boosted 4*s......it's still too easy.

If you want to be competitive in SCL8 again just keep earning those progression rewards and keep building your roster.  It's just like @MissChinch said - the progression rewards are plenty to get you where you need to be.  Honestly I've only just recently started playing PvE competitively and I still rarely take T10 for a full event just due to my schedule......you don't need those placement rewards to make progress.

Fightmastermpq

sh81 said:

Again, I am getting "Ive had to suffer so stuff everyone else" vibes.  My thinking is more, why not suit everyone rather than maintaining a winners/losers situation?

It's not about that at all.  What I or anyone else went through to get to where we are today is irrelevant.  It's a competitive game, there are winners and losers. 

The game suffers if you make it too easy to progress.  People have incentive to progress because it opens up the game for them in one way or another that is desirable - more characters to play with, more modes to play, longer play sessions, more competitive, etc.  But if you just give out rewards like candy your progress relative to the rest of the playerbase is diminished.  If rewards are harder to come by you work harder to get them and feel a greater sense of achievement when you do attain them - not to mention a greater advantage over others who didn't earn them and so there is incentive to continue to progress in this manner.  If everyone gets a trophy there's less incentive to play and we all suffer from a dwindling playerbase.

Milk Jugz

Fightmastermpq said:

sh81 said:

Again, I am getting "Ive had to suffer so stuff everyone else" vibes.  My thinking is more, why not suit everyone rather than maintaining a winners/losers situation?

It's not about that at all.  What I or anyone else went through to get to where we are today is irrelevant.  It's a competitive game, there are winners and losers. 

The game suffers if you make it too easy to progress.  People have incentive to progress because it opens up the game for them in one way or another that is desirable - more characters to play with, more modes to play, longer play sessions, more competitive, etc.  But if you just give out rewards like candy your progress relative to the rest of the playerbase is diminished.  If rewards are harder to come by you work harder to get them and feel a greater sense of achievement when you do attain them - not to mention a greater advantage over others who didn't earn them and so there is incentive to continue to progress in this manner.  If everyone gets a trophy there's less incentive to play and we all suffer from a dwindling playerbase.

I'm fairly sure you are arguing with sh81 just to argue........ He's not asking for trophies for everyone, he's not saying he doesn't want to work for placement. He is saying there needs to be CL for 5* rosters to go into with appropriate rewards for them. I understand where he is coming from completely!! I want to compete in SCL8 because the rewards there best suit what I need for my roster, but when there are far more powerful rosters in that CL because that's all there is, that's a problem! We have 7 CL to split up the first, what, 50ish SR, then everyone 51-125 is dumped into CL8. Again, that's a problem!! We have been seeing CL9 and CL10 "coming soon" since September-ish of last year. They need to be opened up, to spread out the competition a little more. I don't want rewards just handed to me, I want to compete for them. But, I would like to have as even a playing field as possible when competing, 75 levels of SR in the same bracket is not even close to being an even playing field, that group needs to be spread out a bit.....

Phumade

MarcSpector68 said:

Much prefer the old scaling.  Couldnt play in scl8.  Having enemies start at or above you highestbcharacters bites.

LOL Couldn't agree with the last part anymore whole heartedly!!!!

NewMcG

sh81 said:

MissChinch said:

I think this discussion is starting to completely loose sight of the progression rewards, and that in order for a given SCL to be valuable you don't need to finish with high placement...

A 3->4 transitioner can hit progression on SCL7 easily and can make progression on SCL8 if they have the right combination of 4*s.  Even if SCL7 becomes flooded with 100s of 5* champion rosters hellbent on squeezing all other rosters out of placement rewards, the transitioner easily makes enough resources to strengthen their roster significantly faster than new characters are coming out.  The same is true for a roster with 25+ 4* champions. 

Placement rewards are not necessary for substantial progress, and I'd take t500 in SCL8 with hitting progression over fighting for t1 in SL6 anyday.

Personally this change in scaling will amount to me getting slightly less resources, but still being far ahead of the release schedule, while at the same time saving hours a day by dropping to SCL7 and rushing through clears with lower level opponents.  I'm rank 86 with 12 4* champions, all 5*s sitting unleveled.

Progression rewards are greatly improved (and appreciated).  And do serve the masses much better than placement.  And have done more to advance my roster than anything.

I dont disagree with your point at all.


The thing is, for me, the game is a competition, because it has placement.  

I have worked really hard, and put in huge amounts of time and effort to place well consistently.  I am always in the top 1-2% on SCL8 as it stands.

That being the case, I think there should be rewards to reflect that and make it worth while.

And for context:
Pre test, SCL 8, my last three finishes were 11, 18, 10.

The first test, SCL 8, scraped into the top 50

Second test SCL 7, just outside the top 100 (I was unable to play optimally, but looking at available points the best I could have done is just inside top 50)

Strange Sights, SCL 7, #1 first sub, currently ranked 7 over all (#14 in sub 2 with 12 hours left).

So implementing this change takes me from being clearly too good for SCL7, very competitive in SCL8, to a middle of the road SCL7 player.

Thats really hard to take, especially when there are ways to mitigate that completely.

What Ive suggested for one, other suggestions of opening SCL9 and 10 as another.

This is where you need to see the disconnect: You obviously consider yourself a "top 1-2% player" with a roster that is apparently nowhere near that. If you think you're in that elite tier, and yet enemies in the mid-200s are a roadblock that keeps you from maintaining the ability to place at the same rate, I have some bad news for you. You're not close to the top 1-2%.

I consider myself nowhere near the top 1-2% in terms of my roster, and I've got roughly half the 4*s champed, and none higher than 300. I have a few 5s in the mid 300s, and one newly-champed at 451 (Phoenix). My scaling as it stands now gives me hardest node enemies in the low-to-mid-300s, which puts it squarely in between the enemy levels in 7 and 8 in the SCL-based tests. I played 8 the first trial run when the levels somehow stayed somewhat close to what I usually see. Clear time dropped slightly from an hour+ to maybe 45 minutes. I dropped to 7 for this one, and having enemies in the 200s made it a cakewalk. Again, I'm not "top 1-2%", and the SCL-based scaling made 7 a breeze. 

The fact is, you aren't "clearly too good for SCL 7" as it is now. Your enemies will be EXACTLY the same regardless of what SCL you play right now. Whether you go to SCL 1 or 8, you're reaping the benefit of better, higher level rosters being handicapped by facing much higher level enemies, which get exponentially stronger as the levels go up. I can place well most of the time, whether it's SCL 7 or 8, because I have a decent roster, and one particular slice's end time works very well with my work schedule most of the time. Not because I've got the best roster.

If they keep the SCL scaling around where it is in the trial, I'll probably play 7 most of the time, because 8 puts enemies above where I'm seeing at the moment, and I'd love to reclaim an extra hour every day. If they make the upper 300s enemies the new SCL9, and make SCL 8 something in the low 300s like I see now, I'll probably do that most of the time. But what I'm not going to do is begrudge the players with better rosters than me finally seeing a benefit for having those rosters.

zodiac339

Too many people would be making feast or famine choices with static levels. 60 levels stronger in one SCL, or 100 levels weaker in the other SCL. Or for 5 tier players, 130 levels weaker or over 200 levels weaker. There needs to be some kind of scaling involved, not just "eveything's this level for everyone".

Fightmastermpq

I guess to put it another way - PvE was broken because when two rosters played optimally it was typically the smaller roster that finished first.  So you might have been a top 1-2% player, but only because the broken system was handicapping you.  Now they are fixing that system, but letting you keep all the rewards that you earned from that broken system over the past year or so since it has been broken.  Be thankful.

Astralgazer

I took SCL 8 for the 2nd scaling test. The event was challenging but fun, but that's only because I had two boosted 4* champions for the event. If I had only one or none of the boosted 4* champion, I think the event would not be doable and I would have to jump down to SCL 7.

The difficulty gap between SCL 7 and 8 is too great. I tried SCL 7 for the 1st scaling test and I found it too easy and boring.

Devs should open SCL 9, and move the currently tested scaling for SCL 8 there. For SCL 8 the scaling should be halfway between the currently tested SCL 7 and SCL 8.

Just my two cents.

Milk Jugz

New McG said:

sh81 said:

MissChinch said:

I think this discussion is starting to completely loose sight of the progression rewards, and that in order for a given SCL to be valuable you don't need to finish with high placement...

A 3->4 transitioner can hit progression on SCL7 easily and can make progression on SCL8 if they have the right combination of 4*s.  Even if SCL7 becomes flooded with 100s of 5* champion rosters hellbent on squeezing all other rosters out of placement rewards, the transitioner easily makes enough resources to strengthen their roster significantly faster than new characters are coming out.  The same is true for a roster with 25+ 4* champions. 

Placement rewards are not necessary for substantial progress, and I'd take t500 in SCL8 with hitting progression over fighting for t1 in SL6 anyday.

Personally this change in scaling will amount to me getting slightly less resources, but still being far ahead of the release schedule, while at the same time saving hours a day by dropping to SCL7 and rushing through clears with lower level opponents.  I'm rank 86 with 12 4* champions, all 5*s sitting unleveled.

Progression rewards are greatly improved (and appreciated).  And do serve the masses much better than placement.  And have done more to advance my roster than anything.

I dont disagree with your point at all.


The thing is, for me, the game is a competition, because it has placement.  

I have worked really hard, and put in huge amounts of time and effort to place well consistently.  I am always in the top 1-2% on SCL8 as it stands.

That being the case, I think there should be rewards to reflect that and make it worth while.

And for context:
Pre test, SCL 8, my last three finishes were 11, 18, 10.

The first test, SCL 8, scraped into the top 50

Second test SCL 7, just outside the top 100 (I was unable to play optimally, but looking at available points the best I could have done is just inside top 50)

Strange Sights, SCL 7, #1 first sub, currently ranked 7 over all (#14 in sub 2 with 12 hours left).

So implementing this change takes me from being clearly too good for SCL7, very competitive in SCL8, to a middle of the road SCL7 player.

Thats really hard to take, especially when there are ways to mitigate that completely.

What Ive suggested for one, other suggestions of opening SCL9 and 10 as another.

This is where you need to see the disconnect: You obviously consider yourself a "top 1-2% player" with a roster that is apparently nowhere near that. If you think you're in that elite tier, and yet enemies in the mid-200s are a roadblock that keeps you from maintaining the ability to place at the same rate, I have some bad news for you. You're not close to the top 1-2%.

I consider myself nowhere near the top 1-2% in terms of my roster, and I've got roughly half the 4*s champed, and none higher than 300. I have a few 5s in the mid 300s, and one newly-champed at 451 (Phoenix). My scaling as it stands now gives me hardest node enemies in the low-to-mid-300s, which puts it squarely in between the enemy levels in 7 and 8 in the SCL-based tests. I played 8 the first trial run when the levels somehow stayed somewhat close to what I usually see. Clear time dropped slightly from an hour+ to maybe 45 minutes. I dropped to 7 for this one, and having enemies in the 200s made it a cakewalk. Again, I'm not "top 1-2%", and the SCL-based scaling made 7 a breeze. 

The fact is, you aren't "clearly too good for SCL 7" as it is now. Your enemies will be EXACTLY the same regardless of what SCL you play right now. Whether you go to SCL 1 or 8, you're reaping the benefit of better, higher level rosters being handicapped by facing much higher level enemies, which get exponentially stronger as the levels go up. I can place well most of the time, whether it's SCL 7 or 8, because I have a decent roster, and one particular slice's end time works very well with my work schedule most of the time. Not because I've got the best roster.

If they keep the SCL scaling around where it is in the trial, I'll probably play 7 most of the time, because 8 puts enemies above where I'm seeing at the moment, and I'd love to reclaim an extra hour every day. If they make the upper 300s enemies the new SCL9, and make SCL 8 something in the low 300s like I see now, I'll probably do that most of the time. But what I'm not going to do is begrudge the players with better rosters than me finally seeing a benefit for having those rosters.

I don't consider myself near the top 1%-2% of rosters either. Yet, in the last CL scale test I choose CL8 and placed #14. I was in the middle of high level 5* rosters. I was running boosted Blade and Nova, and my 3/3/5 420 Phoenix. I have half the 4*s champed and none of the 5*s, I'm definitely not top 1%-2%, but I managed to finish in that percentage in the highest available CL against the top rosters. All that tells me is overall this test is a failure because they don't have a place to put those 5* rosters yet. They really need to open CL9 and 10 to make CL based scaling completely feasible for everyone.

NewMcG

sh81 said:

Within SCL8, for the last 2 years, Ive gone from a top 5% to top 2% finisher.  Thats where Ive placed, everytime.

Thats not saying I have the best roster or anything like it, thats just a measure of how I have been finishing.

I did SCL8 the first test and the scaling was about the same for me as well, perhaps a little higher though not so I noticed.  So I put in virtually the same effort as usual, but ended up way down the chart.

Simply because 5*s came along, found the scaling a breeze and cruised through the nodes as though they were all trivial.

Clearly, with the (assumed) intent to be the game poses at least some challenge, this test didnt actually work for them either.

Though obviously going from "impossible" to "easy" would be highly refreshing and a bit of fun as a novelty.

I do not begrudge 5* players actually being able to play in PVE, not at all.

I begrudge them being put into what is basically a 4* level, and sweeping it out bumping 4* players out of the better rewards (and in turn the same happening at SCL7).

Its not their fault, I dont blame them - its a poor design choice by mpq (d3? Demi?  I dont know who does what...)

My saying I am to good for SCL7 - Im playing right now under normal conditions.  Its taking about the same amount of time as SCL8, but Im barely using health packs at all.  And, for essentially the same effort as SCL8 Im placing first instead of mid teens.  What does that say for me at that level if not that Im probably doing to SCL7 players what 5* players did to me in SCL8?

Its not arrogance, its no inflated ego or opinion of myself.  Its just how things are sitting.

This change takes me from being a solid SCL8 player who feels like they are making progress and makes me a mid tier SCL7 asking why should I bother continuing.  And the upshot is 5* get what probably amounts to an extra DDQ session.


The crux of the solution I proposed, and similarly proposed options, is that there should be appropriate levels for all players to play in.  Right now there is no where for 5* to go that actually works (for them or anyone else).  The current structure tops out at 4* really.  My proposed one topped out at 5* mega whale within the current 8 levels, others have achieved the same by opening 9 and 10.

That sort of approach and SCL scaling would be a success from top to bottom.  As currently?  I dont see how it really maintains the game for anyone.

The reason SCL 7 and 8 take "about the same amount of time" is that you're fighting the EXACT SAME ENEMIES in both levels. If it's the exact same thing, then yeah, typically it should take about the same amount of time. 

And yes, there should be appropriate levels for everyone to play in. The problem is, they set the level requirement for the highest level way too low, and now people who should have no business playing at the top level (if it were at all based on merit) are playing there, succeeding due to the handicapping of those ahead of them, and now assuming that should be the norm. So now when people would get sorted to their appropriate levels, based upon the actual usefulness of their roster, they're complaining because they won't continue to get the benefits they've been lucky enough to reap for far longer than really should have ever been the case.

broll

sh81 said:

Within SCL8, for the last 2 years, Ive gone from a top 5% to top 2% finisher.  Thats where Ive placed, everytime.

ROFL let's slow that hyperbole train down some:
1.  SCLs came out in August 2016 and only went to 7.
2.  SCL8 came out in October 2016.

Milk Jugz

sh81 said:

broll said:

sh81 said:

Within SCL8, for the last 2 years, Ive gone from a top 5% to top 2% finisher.  Thats where Ive placed, everytime.

ROFL let's slow that hyperbole train down some:
1.  SCLs came out in August 2016 and only went to 7.
2.  SCL8 came out in October 2016.

I see, resort to missing the entire point of the post to focus on one detail and belittle.

That looks worse for you than I.

Should I write paragraph after paragraph detailing how essentially Ive finished top 50 in the rankings since way back up to T10-20 in SCL now?

Or should I credit you with the sense to be able to see exactly what I mean and not act like this?

Id much prefer the latter.  Trolling score 2/10.  Alot of effort to make a witty meme but no real pay off.

I gotta admit though..... It's a pretty damn funny meme!!!

Avalanche Kincaid

Not sure which PVE format I prefer.  New system is baby easy, but there will always be those 3 Grindy MacGrindfaces thonosizing that 3pt node for hours early to snag the top 3 prizes.  Old system was more time consuming, but not too difficult to get top 5 every sub with team Dr. Blanos.

I guess if you got rid of extra points after 3 clears would be ok with test level difficulty.  Just make it based on speed of initial 4/4 and end grind.

WEBGAS

Simply get rid of placement and make PVE on progression rewards only.
Higher difficulty means better rewards.
Play at your own peace and time.
A system fair for all players

Bowgentle

WEBGAS said:

Simply get rid of placement and make PVE on progression rewards only.
Higher difficulty means better rewards.
Play at your own peace and time.
A system fair for all players

Until you realize that to get the 4* covers that you now get for placement you'll have to do 7/7 clears, with near optimal timing.
You certainly won't get 3 4* covers on your own peace and time.

WEBGAS

Bowgentle said:

WEBGAS said:

Simply get rid of placement and make PVE on progression rewards only.
Higher difficulty means better rewards.
Play at your own peace and time.
A system fair for all players

Until you realize that to get the 4* covers that you now get for placement you'll have to do 7/7 clears, with near optimal timing.
You certainly won't get 3 4* covers on your own peace and time.

I realized well and 1 cover is fine for me if I can play without the stress of the last tests

MissChinch

Bowgentle said:

WEBGAS said:

Simply get rid of placement and make PVE on progression rewards only.
Higher difficulty means better rewards.
Play at your own peace and time.
A system fair for all players

Until you realize that to get the 4* covers that you now get for placement you'll have to do 7/7 clears, with near optimal timing.
You certainly won't get 3 4* covers on your own peace and time.

I'd consider that a massive improvement over the current system, even if effectively it doesn't change who gets what rewards...  it would cut down on the whining of people playing in perceived out of depth SCLs, and calling it "PvE" would be less silly.