MaxMagic420 wrote: I noticed the Tyrant fix hasn't really popped up in discussion, and I wanted to make a quick point. I don't think it's a bug at all, actually. Consider the fact that clues count as supports towards any battle objective or card ability that requires casting supports. Clues are essentially token supports, like token creatures, right? Why should one count and not the other? If there were some consistently reliable way to summon 15-20 token creatures in one turn, then no doubt the Tyrant would be ridiculously overpowered. But in my humble opinion, I think the Tyrant is fine as is.
MaxMagic420 wrote: I doubt that very much, honestly. You're talking a four to six turn setup involving multiple cards that taken together, cost about the same as it would cost just to cast the Tyrant normally. Plus, factor in the faulty RNG that makes it extremely unlikely you'll actually draw all those cards in a timely enough manner to make it worthwhile, if you can draw them all in the first place. Irony of that scenario is that if you have a spy network with saheeli, you won't need the Tyrant anyway lol. Besides, power is relative. The Tyrant is powerful but a scour or disperse and it's three wasted turns instead. Unless it's hexproof and/or ridiculously cheap for p/t ratio, it usually doesn't cause me much of an issue when I encounter it. Tyrant? Scour. Move on. Right?
Pqmtg- wrote: Oh are we theory crafting today? Hangerback walker+prism array+insane cascades= infinite tyrant damage.
span_argoman wrote: Pqmtg- wrote: Oh are we theory crafting today? Hangerback walker+prism array+insane cascades= infinite tyrant damage. Sorry, I don't get the infinite Tyrant damage. You have a max of 4 Tyrants in a deck of 40. How do you achieve infinite damage?
MaxMagic420 wrote: All good points taken. But I don't believe the Tyrant requires a fix. That's all I'm really saying. If it was just a rare, maybe. Maybe. But it's a mythic. It's supposed to be a potentially game-changing card, and that's what it is, no more and no less. Besides, with a lvl 60 pw getting 20 mana in a turn is easy. They can fix it or leave it, I'm good either way. The fact that it popped up at all in the update notes was why I brought it up in the first place. I honestly didn't know it was even a bug. It seemed like it was supposed to work that way.
span_argoman wrote: I do wonder whether Crush of Tentacles has the same effect as Tyrant of Valakut and if so, whether they fixed it for Crush of Tentacles too.
mouser wrote: I'm wondering if it might not be better to leave ability 1 loyalty cost unchanged but reduce the mana stolen. E.g. 1/2/3/4 mana. Or could make it so the mana stolen/gained does not have to be equivalent. e.g. 2 drained, 4 gained, or something like that (1/1, 1/2, 2/3, 2/4 drain/gain maybe for levels?)
"David wrote: Moore"]Sorin, Grim Nemesis Sorin’s first and second abilities have been completely redesigned. His loadout has also been improved. His first ability, Vampiric Drain, has been redesigned. It now reads: - Rank 1: “Gain 1 Life and 1 Mana per creature you control.” - Rank 2: “Gain 2 Life and 1 Mana per creature you control.” - Rank 3: “Gain 3 Life and 2 Mana per creature you control.” - Rank 4: “Gain 4 Life and 2 Mana per creature you control.” Vampiric Drain now costs 6 (down from 9).
Shino wrote: Why is 6 mana and 4 life for 6 loyalty ok but 6 mana drain for 6 loyalty not? Sure you have to have 3 creatures out, but that's really not that hard right?
Irgy wrote: Shino wrote: Why is 6 mana and 4 life for 6 loyalty ok but 6 mana drain for 6 loyalty not? Sure you have to have 3 creatures out, but that's really not that hard right? The drain is the oppressive part of the ability, on a fairly dead board (i.e. no chain reactions available) it can completely lock the opponent out for as many turns as you can spam it. Or send them backwards even. Unless you're against Koth or something it's at least as important as the mana gain, I'd even say more important. Life gain in comparison is millimetres away from useless. So I'd call Kiora's effect roughly twice as powerful. Which at 1.5x the cost is probably fair now (cost vs power is not linear) Also that's if you always have 3 creatures, which is also when you're the least likely to desperately need mana, it's a win-more ability. So I'd call Sorin's ability much worse. Though still better than what it was before.
"[ wrote: » "] Irgy wrote: The drain is the oppressive part of the ability, on a fairly dead board (i.e. no chain reactions available) it can completely lock the opponent out for as many turns as you can spam it. Or send them backwards even. Unless you're against Koth or something it's at least as important as the mana gain, I'd even say more important. Life gain in comparison is millimetres away from useless. So I'd call Kiora's effect roughly twice as powerful. Which at 1.5x the cost is probably fair now (cost vs power is not linear) Also that's if you always have 3 creatures, which is also when you're the least likely to desperately need mana, it's a win-more ability. So I'd call Sorin's ability much worse. Though still better than what it was before. I agree very well with this statement. In general, any effect that is potentially oppressive and very capable of locking a player out of interaction at all should not cost too low. I made another thread somewhere complaining about cheap kill spells currently loitering the game for the same reason why I find Kiora's current ability as utterly busted. It's the same situation and reason why in Paper Magic, land destruction effects now almost never cost less than 4 mana; LD (even temporary ones like Boomerang) was utterly unfun to play against. But anyway, I'd like to once again use this thread to highlight my previous point which probably would never be taken seriously anyway: Liliana's first ability feels much too brutal at 6 loyalty (at least at max level). For her to lose 2 cards means nothing when a bad cascade allows her to eat your half-filled expensive card with no compensation. It's hands down the second most unfun ability to play against right below Kiora's mana steal. Although having said that, given that Madness cards cannot be discarded, probably a shift in metagame can lessen the impact of her oppressive first ability. I dunno.
Irgy wrote: The drain is the oppressive part of the ability, on a fairly dead board (i.e. no chain reactions available) it can completely lock the opponent out for as many turns as you can spam it. Or send them backwards even. Unless you're against Koth or something it's at least as important as the mana gain, I'd even say more important. Life gain in comparison is millimetres away from useless. So I'd call Kiora's effect roughly twice as powerful. Which at 1.5x the cost is probably fair now (cost vs power is not linear) Also that's if you always have 3 creatures, which is also when you're the least likely to desperately need mana, it's a win-more ability. So I'd call Sorin's ability much worse. Though still better than what it was before.
Shino wrote: Appreciate the feed back. Though you guys didn't really comment on my suggestion, just my comparison. I feel like lowering the drain to 1/2 of the gain is a fair substitute. Three mana is pretty much any match for almost all PWs... so even on a tough board, you're hurt for 1 turn or less. Liliana's ability is far worse for 6 mana IMO. I hate dealing with her. I'm often losing turns b/c I'm moving cards around that I don't feel I need and don't lose the card I dumped a bunch of mana into already. And again... let's not forget that this is a planeswalker that we paid 950 crystals for. In all honesty... when I'm playing... I dread playing Liliana and Koth the most. Especially Koth... he changes my entire gameplan. Regardless of color... I'm prioritizing red.